30 Dec
2017
30 Dec
'17
8:27 a.m.
I come from a mostly-UNIX, mostly-TCP/IP background. I don't understand DECnet well
yet, but I want to learn more! Much of my interest in joining HECnet and playing around is
because I largely skipped over DECnet in its original airing, and now it seems like a
weird foreign land that I feel an irrational need to grok in fullness.
What are/were the conventions for providing public services over DECnet Phase IV networks,
to remote users without their own local user accounts? I.e., let's say that I had a
node on a large DECnet-only network back in the before time, and I wanted to share a file
repository in a manner comparable to anonymous FTP on a TCP/IP network. How would I have
done that? Were there conventions for doing that sort of thing back then, or was that a
foreign concept on large DECnet networks at the time?
Were there any examples of BBS-like servers living on DECnet networks? Online multi-player
games such as MUDs? Early DECnet-based examples of "log into the coffee pot to see if
the brew is fresh"? DECnet-based analogs to Archie for discovering stuff?
DECnet-based USENET-like communities?
I don't know if any of these concepts even made sense in the DECnet world at the time.
In addition to only understanding the networks of the 80s from a UNIX-centric,
TCP/IP-centric worldview, I'm also having a hard time un-thinking the newer concepts
I'm used to after so many years of steeping in a broth of HTTP and social media. I
have somewhat conflicting urges to both learn how to think like a 1980s DECnet user, and
to retcon modern concepts into an alternate reality where TCP/IP never took off.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
30 Dec
30 Dec
3:05 p.m.
Hi Mark,
Your email strikes a chord; I was exactly in this position a couple of
years ago.
My experience with OpenVMS was mostly doing SYS$QIOs, ASTs and Event
Flags controlling factory shop-floor equipment with not much of DECnet
in the mid 90's; and I bailed to Unix/Linux/IP shortly before Robert
Palmer completed the demise of Digital Equipment Corporation.
I have been playing around (got blocked from HECnet twice for
inadvertently flooding the entire network with ethernet loopbacks while
experimenting) and wanted to share my experience so far.
_File Sharing_
Anonymous file sharing is achieved using the File Access Listener
service (FAL) that comes with DECnet implementations. Anonymity is
achieved by proxy - this basically means you configure DECnet? to map
anonymous users to a FAL user, and all files in this proxied FAL user's
directory are then available publicly. You can do a "DIR <NODENAME>::"
to almost any HECnet node and see the files their owners have made
publicly available.
Installing FAL server on OpenVMS is a no brainer; the DECnet
installation script will ask questions and set it up. Other operating
systems are tricky to various degrees, but by all means go for it, it is
exciting!
I have been experimenting on DECnet stacks on various operating systems,
and so far have got FAL to work accessing files from other nodes on HECnet:
OpenVMS VAX 7.3:
??? DIR QCOCAL::
??? DIR CLOUDY::
??? DIR IMPVAX::
OpenVMS Alpha 8.3:
??? DIR RAPTOR::
RSX-11M-PLUS / PDP-11/24
??? DIR JUICHI::
Linux Ubuntu 14:
??? DIR FEDACH::
??? DIR FOMFOR::
DEC Ultrix:
??? DIR OSTARA::
Microsoft Windows NT 4.0 - _This actually returns the entire content of
C:\WINNT\SYSTEM32, I do not know how to peg FAL server to a specific
directory on Windows NT_:
??? DIR ENTEE4::
Microsoft Windows XP? - Again, this returns the entire content of
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32!
??? DIR ENTEE4::
_Forum/BBS/Conference__
_
DEC NOTES was, as mostly the case, pioneering and years ahead - I could
get technical answers from across the world over the global EASYNET
before the internet became popular. However I think there needs to be
some NOTES servers somewhere on HECnet for the rest of us to launch
NOTES and chat. Maybe there is one, I do not know, Johnny may.
_MUDS etc_
The OpenVMS freeware archives contain a few networked games - they are
easy to install - I will gladly play with others as others will if you
put them up!
_Web Server_
Not really DECnet, but if you have DEC TCP/IP for OpenVMS installed,
both WASD and OSU HTTPD work fine. My examples -
http://sanyalnet-openvms-vax.freeddns.org:82/ is served by WASD for
OpenVMS/VAX 7.3 and http://sanyal.duckdns.org/ is served by OSU HTTPD on
OpenVMS/Alpha 8.3.
Have a glorious 2018 playing with DECnet,
Supratim
On 12/30/2017 02:27, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I come from a mostly-UNIX, mostly-TCP/IP background. I
don't understand DECnet well yet, but I want to learn more! Much of my interest in
joining HECnet and playing around is because I largely skipped over DECnet in its original
airing, and now it seems like a weird foreign land that I feel an irrational need to grok
in fullness.
What are/were the conventions for providing public services over DECnet Phase IV
networks, to remote users without their own local user accounts? I.e., let's say that
I had a node on a large DECnet-only network back in the before time, and I wanted to share
a file repository in a manner comparable to anonymous FTP on a TCP/IP network. How would I
have done that? Were there conventions for doing that sort of thing back then, or was that
a foreign concept on large DECnet networks at the time?
Were there any examples of BBS-like servers living on DECnet networks? Online
multi-player games such as MUDs? Early DECnet-based examples of "log into the coffee
pot to see if the brew is fresh"? DECnet-based analogs to Archie for discovering
stuff? DECnet-based USENET-like communities?
I don't know if any of these concepts even made sense in the DECnet world at the
time. In addition to only understanding the networks of the 80s from a UNIX-centric,
TCP/IP-centric worldview, I'm also having a hard time un-thinking the newer concepts
I'm used to after so many years of steeping in a broth of HTTP and social media. I
have somewhat conflicting urges to both learn how to think like a 1980s DECnet user, and
to retcon modern concepts into an alternate reality where TCP/IP never took off.
6:59 p.m.
On Dec 30, 2017, at 06:05, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
My experience with OpenVMS was mostly doing SYS$QIOs, ASTs and Event Flags controlling
factory shop-floor equipment
I don't know what SYS$QIOs, ASTs or Event Flags are yet, but controlling factory shop
floor equipment sounds like my cup of tea!
Setting up anonymous file access sounds straightforward. I need to read up on access
control for launching remote batch jobs.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net <mailto:nf6x at nf6x.net>>
http://www.nf6x.net/ <http://www.nf6x.net/>
8:10 p.m.
A SYS$QIO is just a system call used to perform I/O.
An AST is an "asynchronous system trap", otherwise known as an interrupt
routine.
An event flag is a process synchronisation mechanism.
Regards
Rob
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf
Of Mark J. Blair
Sent: 30 December 2017 18:00
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Public Services over DECnet
On Dec 30, 2017, at 06:05, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net
<mailto:supratim at riseup.net> > wrote:
My experience with OpenVMS was mostly doing SYS$QIOs, ASTs and Event Flags
controlling factory shop-floor equipment
I don't know what SYS$QIOs, ASTs or Event Flags are yet, but controlling
factory shop floor equipment sounds like my cup of tea!
Setting up anonymous file access sounds straightforward. I need to read up
on access control for launching remote batch jobs.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net <mailto:nf6x at nf6x.net> >
http://www.nf6x.net/
8:26 p.m.
Seasons greetings to all.
I've been lurking on the list for a while and not really involved in
vintage computing at all over the past year or so.
What I will say is that I am in the process of trying to organise another
DEC Legacy Event for 2018 - it will either be in May or November, to be
decided shortly.
To bring my post on topic I can recommend the 'Writing VAX/VMS Applications
using Pascal' by Theo De Klerk if you want an introduction into some of the
VAX/VMS specific features such as ASTs.
I don't have a technical background with DECnet, only as a user. It does
indeed work great. I'm jealous I wasn't involved in DEC itself - Steve
Davidson has some great stories about the scalability of VAX/VMS hardware
and networking infrastructure.
Regards, Mark.
On 30 December 2017 at 19:10, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
A SYS$QIO is just a system call used to perform I/O.
An AST is an ?asynchronous system trap?, otherwise known as an interrupt
routine.
An event flag is a process synchronisation mechanism.
Regards
Rob
*From:* owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On
Behalf Of *Mark J. Blair
*Sent:* 30 December 2017 18:00
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Subject:* Re: [HECnet] Public Services over DECnet
On Dec 30, 2017, at 06:05, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
My experience with OpenVMS was mostly doing SYS$QIOs, ASTs and Event Flags
controlling factory shop-floor equipment
I don't know what SYS$QIOs, ASTs or Event Flags are yet, but controlling
factory shop floor equipment sounds like my cup of tea!
Setting up anonymous file access sounds straightforward. I need to read up
on access control for launching remote batch jobs.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
8:48 p.m.
Looking forward to DEC Legacy 2018!
Regards
Rob
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Mark
Wickens
Sent: 30 December 2017 19:27
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Public Services over DECnet
Seasons greetings to all.
I've been lurking on the list for a while and not really involved in vintage computing
at all over the past year or so.
What I will say is that I am in the process of trying to organise another DEC Legacy Event
for 2018 - it will either be in May or November, to be decided shortly.
To bring my post on topic I can recommend the 'Writing VAX/VMS Applications using
Pascal' by Theo De Klerk if you want an introduction into some of the VAX/VMS specific
features such as ASTs.
I don't have a technical background with DECnet, only as a user. It does indeed work
great. I'm jealous I wasn't involved in DEC itself - Steve Davidson has some great
stories about the scalability of VAX/VMS hardware and networking infrastructure.
Regards, Mark.
On 30 December 2017 at 19:10, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com
<mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> > wrote:
A SYS$QIO is just a system call used to perform I/O.
An AST is an ?asynchronous system trap?, otherwise known as an interrupt routine.
An event flag is a process synchronisation mechanism.
Regards
Rob
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
[mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> ] On
Behalf Of Mark J. Blair
Sent: 30 December 2017 18:00
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Public Services over DECnet
On Dec 30, 2017, at 06:05, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net <mailto:supratim
at riseup.net> > wrote:
My experience with OpenVMS was mostly doing SYS$QIOs, ASTs and Event Flags controlling
factory shop-floor equipment
I don't know what SYS$QIOs, ASTs or Event Flags are yet, but controlling factory shop
floor equipment sounds like my cup of tea!
Setting up anonymous file access sounds straightforward. I need to read up on access
control for launching remote batch jobs.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net <mailto:nf6x at nf6x.net> >
http://www.nf6x.net/
9:15 p.m.
An AST is an "asynchronous system trap",
otherwise known as an interrupt
routine.
Rob's absolutely right about what the acronym means, but I always found
the idea of an "asynchronous trap" to be an oxymoron. When I was in school,
"traps" were synchronous with instruction execution, and "interrupts"
were
asynchronous. It should be a "SST', not an "AST". It was always one
of my
pet peeves about VMS J
Bob
11:42 p.m.
On 2017-12-30 21:15, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Well, you do know that ASTs are synchronous with instruction execution,
right? ASTs are a pure software concept, so they are always synchronous
from that point of view. However, they are asynchronous in regard to
your application flow of execution.
Interrupts on the other hand are truly asynchronous to instruction
execution.
In RSX you have both ASTs and SSTs. Did you know that one? :-)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
An AST is an
?asynchronous system trap?, otherwise known as an interrupt
routine.
? Rob?s absolutely right about what the acronym means, but I always
found the idea of an ?asynchronous trap? to be an oxymoron.? When I was
in school, ?traps? were synchronous with instruction execution, and
?interrupts? were asynchronous.?? It should be a ?SST?, not an ?AST?.
It was always one of my pet peeves about VMS J
4:49 a.m.
On 2017-12-31 04:44, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Well, sortof not. It is asynchronous to your program flow.
Now you do. And SSTs are synchronous to your program flow, but are also
a software construct.
So, from your program point of view, AST very much corresponds to
interrupts, and SST corresponds to traps. But call a routine you
registered, with some arguments giving additional information on the stack.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
ASTs are
synchronous with instruction execution, right?
That's exactly the point - the "A" in AST is wrong... In RSX you
have both ASTs and SSTs. Did you know that one? :-)
Nope, that didn't...
5:13 a.m.
On 2017-12-31 04:56, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Well, you could argue that "trap" is appropriate as it is synchronous to
instruction execution. Hence my comments. It is appropriate to call it
trap because of that property. Basically, anything that comes out of a
software construct has to be a trap. But it's asynchronous to your
program flow. So AST is maybe not such a bad word for it.
But of course, this is all splitting hairs. I find it a good term, but
I'm okay with finding it a bad one.
But it is still worth noting that SST also does exist.
(And asynchronous interrupt would be an ugly term, and confusing, I
think. There isn't necessarily any interrupt related to the trap at all,
and just trap and interrupt by themselves already have established
meanings in computers, as you note, and ASTs are not truly well
described by either term.)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Well, sortof
not. It is asynchronous to your program flow.
If you want to look at it that way, then the "T" is wrong - it should be
an "asynchronous interrupt". However you slice it, "asynchronous"
and
"trap" don't go together. 
30 Dec
30 Dec
3:59 p.m.
Mark,
There is a concept in DECnet like anonymous FTP, if one sets it up. In RSX the DECnet
utility NFT (Network File Transfer) was the client side and FAL (File Access Listener) was
the server side. The functionality of these were built into DIR and VMS on VAX. If account
info was not sent then FAL could be pointed to a directory like [DECNET] where public ally
accessed files could be transferred. Both RSX and VMS also incorporated account matching
and access control via ?PROXY? utilities. In RSX this was a separate utility, in VMS it
was done with NCP.
On HECnet, there is a loose convention that one puts a INFO.TXT in [DECNET] that has
info to describe the node.
As far as multiuser games, the two that I can think of is TREK and multiuser Star Trek
game, but I don?t think it was ever expanded to use DECnet. It utilized a memory common
which probably could be synchronized between two nodes to provide multi-user, multi-node
play. The other was a VMS Xwindows flight simulator. If I remember correctly it could be
played in a multi-computer mode.
In DECnet, batch jobs could be launched on remote nodes which could check the coffee
pot etc. Also, Datatrieve had a remote server which was quite useful for remote database
access. Also, a utility called PHONE was really neat for multi-user multi-node
conversations. I remember back in 1981, before the internet was widely available having a
conversation between a company colleague when I was in Iowa and another colleague was in
Illinois. The AT&T leased data lines were incredibly expensive but point to point
DECnet worked incredibly well on those data lines which were typically 9600 baud (or
slower). The great thing was a simple DL serial port was all that you needed to be a
simple end-node. Of course if you needed a better interface there were a variety of cards
with coprocessors to off load the main CPU.
Since almost all the networks were private and isolated, there wasn?t much in the way
of BBS or Archie type functionality until people started connecting to the internet. VMS
may have something similar, but although RSX used ethernet for DECnet, it did not have the
ability to connect to the internet until Johnny made it possible a couple years ago.
Best,
Mark
On Dec 30, 2017, at 1:27 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at
nf6x.net> wrote:
I come from a mostly-UNIX, mostly-TCP/IP background. I don't understand DECnet well
yet, but I want to learn more! Much of my interest in joining HECnet and playing around is
because I largely skipped over DECnet in its original airing, and now it seems like a
weird foreign land that I feel an irrational need to grok in fullness.
What are/were the conventions for providing public services over DECnet Phase IV
networks, to remote users without their own local user accounts? I.e., let's say that
I had a node on a large DECnet-only network back in the before time, and I wanted to share
a file repository in a manner comparable to anonymous FTP on a TCP/IP network. How would I
have done that? Were there conventions for doing that sort of thing back then, or was that
a foreign concept on large DECnet networks at the time?
Were there any examples of BBS-like servers living on DECnet networks? Online
multi-player games such as MUDs? Early DECnet-based examples of "log into the coffee
pot to see if the brew is fresh"? DECnet-based analogs to Archie for discovering
stuff? DECnet-based USENET-like communities?
I don't know if any of these concepts even made sense in the DECnet world at the
time. In addition to only understanding the networks of the 80s from a UNIX-centric,
TCP/IP-centric worldview, I'm also having a hard time un-thinking the newer concepts
I'm used to after so many years of steeping in a broth of HTTP and social media. I
have somewhat conflicting urges to both learn how to think like a 1980s DECnet user, and
to retcon modern concepts into an alternate reality where TCP/IP never took off.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
7:09 p.m.
On 12/30/2017 02:27 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I come from a mostly-UNIX, mostly-TCP/IP background. I
don't understand DECnet well yet, but I want to learn more! Much of my interest in
joining HECnet and playing around is because I largely skipped over DECnet in its original
airing, and now it seems like a weird foreign land that I feel an irrational need to grok
in fullness.
What are/were the conventions for providing public services over DECnet Phase IV
networks, to remote users without their own local user accounts? I.e., let's say that
I had a node on a large DECnet-only network back in the before time, and I wanted to share
a file repository in a manner comparable to anonymous FTP on a TCP/IP network. How would I
have done that? Were there conventions for doing that sort of thing back then, or was that
a foreign concept on large DECnet networks at the time?
Were there any examples of BBS-like servers living on DECnet networks? Online
multi-player games such as MUDs? Early DECnet-based examples of "log into the coffee
pot to see if the brew is fresh"? DECnet-based analogs to Archie for discovering
stuff? DECnet-based USENET-like communities?
I don't know if any of these concepts even made sense in the DECnet world at the
time. In addition to only understanding the networks of the 80s from a UNIX-centric,
TCP/IP-centric worldview, I'm also having a hard time un-thinking the newer concepts
I'm used to after so many years of steeping in a broth of HTTP and social media. I
have somewhat conflicting urges to both learn how to think like a 1980s DECnet user, and
to retcon modern concepts into an alternate reality where TCP/IP never took off.
It sounds like your life has been similar to mine. :) Though I cut my
teeth on PDP-8 and PDP-11 systems, I had never used DECnet, because I
never had the hardware...DEUNAs were WAY out of reach financially when I
was a teenager in the 1980s; I was lucky enough to have a PDP-11 at the
time so I'm not complaining. After living and breathing RSX and RSTS
for a long time, I got into UNIX in the mid-80s, and have been there
ever since except for a stint of several years as a commercial VMS
admin. I've still never used Windows, and at this point I doubt I ever
will.
When I worked as a VMS admin, it was in a gov't related organization
where no networking of any kind was permitted, so no DECnet there
either! I must've been one of the only VMS guys around who had never
used DECnet.
Your post obviously tickled a bunch of "wow, this guy's a lot like
me!" receptors. ;) The only thing that I can say in direct response to
your questions is this: Are you aware that the X window system can, or
at least could, use DECnet as a transport?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
7:30 p.m.
On Dec 30, 2017, at 10:09, Dave McGuire <mcguire at
neurotica.com> wrote:
I've still never used Windows, and at this point I doubt I ever
will.
Ok, now I'm really jealous. I've used Windows a lot more than I would have liked
to! :)
The only thing that I can say in direct response to
your questions is this: Are you aware that the X window system can, or
at least could, use DECnet as a transport?
I was unaware! Can that be done on plain old Phase IV? What sort of hardware and software
do I need to engage in that wonderful silliness?
My current plan is to have all of my old DECnet-native gear speaking only DECnet Phase IV,
with TCP/IP only set up on one simh-based VAX-11/785 emulation that I use as an always-on
HECnet presence, a bridge between DECnet and my modern machines, and possibly a DECnet
router (depending on how I end up connecting to HECnet).
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
7:56 p.m.
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Yeah - this causes me to pipe up as well - I'm a bit jealous of the "OS
path" that Dave took. I used 'em all (referring to Windows) but I guess
that busted stuff is what kept the money coming in. :) I would much
prefer to stay in the VMS/Unix/any OS other than Windows camp.
Fred
On Dec 30, 2017, at 10:09, Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
I've still never used Windows, and at this point I doubt I ever
will.
Ok, now I'm really jealous. I've used Windows a lot more than I would
have liked to! :)
31 Dec
31 Dec
4:24 a.m.
Catching up on more mails that had ended up in the wrong folder at my end...
On 2017-12-30 08:27, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I come from a mostly-UNIX, mostly-TCP/IP background. I
don't understand DECnet well yet, but I want to learn more! Much of my interest in
joining HECnet and playing around is because I largely skipped over DECnet in its original
airing, and now it seems like a weird foreign land that I feel an irrational need to grok
in fullness.
DECnet is similar in some ways, and different from TCP/IP in other ways.
The only way to learn is by testing... So have fun...
What are/were the conventions for providing public
services over DECnet Phase IV networks, to remote users without their own local user
accounts? I.e., let's say that I had a node on a large DECnet-only network back in the
before time, and I wanted to share a file repository in a manner comparable to anonymous
FTP on a TCP/IP network. How would I have done that? Were there conventions for doing that
sort of thing back then, or was that a foreign concept on large DECnet networks at the
time?
File access in DECnet is not really like ftp. Think of it more closely
to SMB or NFS. In VMS it is fully integrated into the OS. Any file
access can just as well access a file over DECnet as a local file. A
full filename specification includes the node name as well.
VMS can have a default DECnet account, which would be used if an unknown
user connected for file access. Others also mentioned proxy access,
which is a way of mapping users on one system to other users on another
system. This can also be used for setting up default access if no
username is given.
And to explain this in full, a filename looks like this:
NODE"user password"::DEV:[DIR]FILE.EXT;VER
And if a user and password is not given, if outgoing proxy is enabled,
the remote node can use incoming proxy to remap you into some other
local user on that machine. If no proxy is enabled, the remote node can
potentially also use some default account, or access can be denied.
Were there any examples of BBS-like servers living on
DECnet networks? Online multi-player games such as MUDs? Early DECnet-based examples of
"log into the coffee pot to see if the brew is fresh"? DECnet-based analogs to
Archie for discovering stuff? DECnet-based USENET-like communities?
BBS like services? The only one I know of would be VMS NOTES. NOTES is
also the closes to something USENET-like. Then you have PHONE, which is
a bit like Unix talk. And mail of course...
The only multiplayer game I ever saw was FLIGHT, which was a multiuser
flight simulator for VMS workstations. But there might have been others.
Don't know...
As others also said, remote control of both batch jobs, and running
tasks in general is pretty easy in DECnet. (There was a bit more trust
back then, even if it did require authentication.)
I don't know if any of these concepts even made
sense in the DECnet world at the time. In addition to only understanding the networks of
the 80s from a UNIX-centric, TCP/IP-centric worldview, I'm also having a hard time
un-thinking the newer concepts I'm used to after so many years of steeping in a broth
of HTTP and social media. I have somewhat conflicting urges to both learn how to think
like a 1980s DECnet user, and to retcon modern concepts into an alternate reality where
TCP/IP never took off.
Good luck. :-)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
9 a.m.
Mark,
I got exposed to DECnet in college (90-95). In Texas all the state college/universities
and some of the larger private schools were on a state-wide network called THEnet (Texas
Higher Education network) which ran DECnet as the backbone and supported other protocols
too (like JNET for BITnet and UUCP). Most links originally started out as 56K leased
lines.
Each school was setup as a separate area and naming conventions reflected school
characters creativity (or lack thereof) since all names had to be unique. One school
named all systems based on Norse mythology.
THEnet had a peer connection to a govt research decnet called SPAN; it was odd in that
only 2 nodes (one on each side) could see either network. Had to address everything
through the two proxies (DIR THENET::SPAN::endnode:dev[dir]file.ext)
PHONE is a basic chat function. It allowed users to communicate interactively over THEnet.
Screen size was the limiting factor, 6 users in chat was the limit. You see each other
type in real time. It was a great way to find other folks/friends at others schools (way
before Facebook).
JNET was an implementation of IBM VM pseudo interactive communication. Allowed vax to talk
to the ibm mainframes. TELL would send short text messages to a user/terminal and SEND
would send files to users or IBM queues (print and batch). The laser printers of those
days were big and expensive and usually hooked up to administrative IBM mainframes so
you?d use SEND to shoot your print jobs to the IBM lasers. SEND was useful to send one or
two files to a friend without having to copy files to a public files share ( I.e.
[DECNET]) where everyone could see it.
There were several MUDs and a few BBS that ran over DECNET. Most that I used were written
by CS students that had gotten access to a small departmental vax that wasn?t managed by
the central IT depts. I remember a buddy had games on one (Frogger and poker). [sadly most
were lost when folks graduated and systems were refreshed over time].
PATHWORKS was very popular on many campuses. It allowed Microsoft and Apple networking
clients talk to VMS file and print servers.
There were also come DECnet resources that allowed you to access IBM resources (VM, MVS,
CICS) from VT terminals (so we didn?t have to setup those awful IBM terminal in labs).
THEnet/DECnet also supported many Library Information Systems before the internet became a
household resource. Many used GOPHER before eventually moving to http.
I worked at the medical university and it had 4 campuses across the state and used DECNET
to connect all the campuses back to the main campus and ran the electronic medical system
(records/billing) centrally. (FYI VMS is still used in a lot of large US gov?t healthcare
facilities today)
Sadly as TCP/IP became more standard on PCs, schools moved computer programming courses
from Vaxclusters to PCs and THEnet and VMS systems slowly declined and were retired and
THEnet and BITnet were shutdown in favor of the internet.
Enjoy playing with DECnet.
On Dec 30, 2017, at 2:35 AM, Mark J.Blair <nf6x at
nf6x.net> wrote:
I come from a mostly-UNIX, mostly-TCP/IP background. I don't understand DECnet well
yet, but I want to learn more! Much of my interest in joining HECnet and playing around is
because I largely skipped over DECnet in its original airing, and now it seems like a
weird foreign land that I feel an irrational need to grok in fullness.
What are/were the conventions for providing public services over DECnet Phase IV
networks, to remote users without their own local user accounts? I.e., let's say that
I had a node on a large DECnet-only network back in the before time, and I wanted to share
a file repository in a manner comparable to anonymous FTP on a TCP/IP network. How would I
have done that? Were there conventions for doing that sort of thing back then, or was that
a foreign concept on large DECnet networks at the time?
Were there any examples of BBS-like servers living on DECnet networks? Online
multi-player games such as MUDs? Early DECnet-based examples of "log into the coffee
pot to see if the brew is fresh"? DECnet-based analogs to Archie for discovering
stuff? DECnet-based USENET-like communities?
I don't know if any of these concepts even made sense in the DECnet world at the
time. In addition to only understanding the networks of the 80s from a UNIX-centric,
TCP/IP-centric worldview, I'm also having a hard time un-thinking the newer concepts
I'm used to after so many years of steeping in a broth of HTTP and social media. I
have somewhat conflicting urges to both learn how to think like a 1980s DECnet user, and
to retcon modern concepts into an alternate reality where TCP/IP never took off.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
6:30 p.m.
Folks,
I was exposed to only local DECnet during college life (1984-1990) at
Gallaudet University in DC area. I was CS student. I had accessed to VAX,
PDP-10 (TOPS-10), and Ultrix system which was connected to the Internet
(SURAnet). VAX system was connected to BITNET with using JNet software. I
used DECnet to transfer my files between VAX, PDP-10 and Ultrix systems and
logged into other systems via DECnet (set host command).
I got JNet software with TCPNJE driver for my emulated VAX system. I
installed FunetNJE (available on ftp.funet.fi) on Linux system and was able
send messages to my emulated VAX system or via. I am still looking for
JNet 1.x and 2.x for older VMS operating systems that I have. Also, I am
still looking for JNet manuals as well.
Some BITNET file servers have good resources for VM and VAX operating
systems. There were RELAY servers as well.
Yeah. There are still MUD sources (like TinyMUD and AberMUD) on the
Internet for UNIX systems.
There was MUD server on PSUVAX for a few months. That was so fun until
system admin asked someone to shut down due to excessively resources. I
tried to contact MUD developer to give me a copy but they said no.
At college, We used Kermit to access VAX, PDP-10 and Ultrix systems as
terminal and file transfers (very slow!!). Network admin told me that and
use TCP/IP software instead. TCP/IP is much more effective than Kermit.
I graduated from Gallaudet University before TCP/IP became standard
(replaces old Kermit, etc.) for system-wide use after sys admin retired.
Yeah. I saw that declining of BITnet in 1990s in favors of the Internet as
standard communication. I never use THEnet because it was not available at
my college campus. Today I recently discovered HECnet and am planning to
join HECnet with my emulated VAX system. I am considering about Hobbyist
version of BITnet some day with JNet and FunetNJE software. I had seen some
people used Hercules 390 to run VM/ESA or z/VM to can communicate with
that. VM/370 (released to public) does not support that yet.
Tim
11:02 p.m.
On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Timothy Stark <fsword007 at gmail.com> wrote:
Folks,
I was exposed to only local DECnet during college life (1984-1990) at
Gallaudet University in DC area. I was CS student. I had accessed to VAX,
PDP-10 (TOPS-10), and Ultrix system which was connected to the Internet
(SURAnet). VAX system was connected to BITNET with using JNet software. I
used DECnet to transfer my files between VAX, PDP-10 and Ultrix systems and
logged into other systems via DECnet (set host command).
I got JNet software with TCPNJE driver for my emulated VAX system. I
installed FunetNJE (available on ftp.funet.fi) on Linux system and was
able send messages to my emulated VAX system or via. I am still looking
for JNet 1.x and 2.x for older VMS operating systems that I have. Also, I
am still looking for JNet manuals as well.
Wow, I've been wondering whatever happened to JNet. Same with UREP (Unix
RSCS Emulation Program: basically, BITNET for Unix).
Some BITNET file servers have good resources for VM and VAX operating
systems. There were RELAY servers as well.
Yeah. There are still MUD sources (like TinyMUD and AberMUD) on the
Internet for UNIX systems.
There was MUD server on PSUVAX for a few months. That was so fun until
system admin asked someone to shut down due to excessively resources. I
tried to contact MUD developer to give me a copy but they said no.
Hmm. Do you know what timeframe that was in? psuvax1 was actually a Sun in
it's later life (a 4/280, I think?)....
At college, We used Kermit to access VAX, PDP-10 and Ultrix systems as
terminal and file transfers (very slow!!). Network
admin told me that and
use TCP/IP software instead. TCP/IP is much more effective than Kermit.
I graduated from Gallaudet University before TCP/IP became standard
(replaces old Kermit, etc.) for system-wide use after sys admin retired.
Yeah. I saw that declining of BITnet in 1990s in favors of the Internet as
standard communication. I never use THEnet because it was not available at
my college campus. Today I recently discovered HECnet and am planning to
join HECnet with my emulated VAX system. I am considering about Hobbyist
version of BITnet some day with JNet and FunetNJE software. I had seen some
people used Hercules 390 to run VM/ESA or z/VM to can communicate with
that. VM/370 (released to public) does not support that yet.
I can't say I'm sad to see RSCS networks die, but there's definitely some
nostalgia factor to seeing people use BITNET again.
- Dan C.
16 Feb
16 Feb
5:43 p.m.
Dan,
Well, psuvax1 was available to BITNET during my college life (1984 to 1990). I mean that
MUD server was on PSUVMS, not PSUVAX1. I tried to remember which BITNET node.
I do not know what happens to UREP software yet. I was looking for that but can?t find so
far? There is only open-source RSCS emulator (FunetNJE) available on funnet?s ftp site.
Also I found open-source HUJINET for VMS is available on that ftp site.
I successfully installed JNet 3.6 and TCPNJE 1.2 on my SIMH emulator. Since I do not have
JNet manuals, I figured out how to install and configure. I have to write installation
guide in progress.
I am now able send messages and files. I learned that JNet supports DECnet links for
sending files to specific persons.
Does anyone have copy of JNet manuals include programming guide?
Tim
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Dan
Cross
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 5:03 PM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Public Services over DECnet
On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 12:30 PM, Timothy Stark <fsword007 at gmail.com
<mailto:fsword007 at gmail.com> > wrote:
Folks,
I was exposed to only local DECnet during college life (1984-1990) at Gallaudet University
in DC area. I was CS student. I had accessed to VAX, PDP-10 (TOPS-10), and Ultrix system
which was connected to the Internet (SURAnet). VAX system was connected to BITNET with
using JNet software. I used DECnet to transfer my files between VAX, PDP-10 and Ultrix
systems and logged into other systems via DECnet (set host command).
I got JNet software with TCPNJE driver for my emulated VAX system. I installed FunetNJE
(available on ftp.funet.fi <http://ftp.funet.fi> ) on Linux system and was able send
messages to my emulated VAX system or via. I am still looking for JNet 1.x and 2.x for
older VMS operating systems that I have. Also, I am still looking for JNet manuals as
well.
Wow, I've been wondering whatever happened to JNet. Same with UREP (Unix RSCS
Emulation Program: basically, BITNET for Unix).
Some BITNET file servers have good resources for VM and VAX operating systems. There were
RELAY servers as well.
Yeah. There are still MUD sources (like TinyMUD and AberMUD) on the Internet for UNIX
systems.
There was MUD server on PSUVAX for a few months. That was so fun until system admin asked
someone to shut down due to excessively resources. I tried to contact MUD developer to
give me a copy but they said no.
Hmm. Do you know what timeframe that was in? psuvax1 was actually a Sun in it's later
life (a 4/280, I think?)....
At college, We used Kermit to access VAX, PDP-10 and Ultrix systems as terminal and file
transfers (very slow!!). Network admin told me that and use TCP/IP software instead.
TCP/IP is much more effective than Kermit.
I graduated from Gallaudet University before TCP/IP became standard (replaces old Kermit,
etc.) for system-wide use after sys admin retired.
Yeah. I saw that declining of BITnet in 1990s in favors of the Internet as standard
communication. I never use THEnet because it was not available at my college campus.
Today I recently discovered HECnet and am planning to join HECnet with my emulated VAX
system. I am considering about Hobbyist version of BITnet some day with JNet and FunetNJE
software. I had seen some people used Hercules 390 to run VM/ESA or z/VM to can
communicate with that. VM/370 (released to public) does not support that yet.
I can't say I'm sad to see RSCS networks die, but there's definitely some
nostalgia factor to seeing people use BITNET again.
- Dan C.
2501
days inactive
2549
days old
20 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
bob＠jfcl.com -
bqt＠softjar.se -
crossd＠gmail.com -
fcoffey＠misernet.net -
fsword007＠gmail.com -
mark＠matlockfamily.com -
mark＠wickensonline.co.uk -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
mholmes10＠hotmail.com -
nf6x＠nf6x.net -
robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com -
supratim＠riseup.net