20 Mar
2025
20 Mar
'25
4:31 p.m.
Hi
Recently I cloned one of my MicroVAX 7.3 simh servers and removed DECnet
phase IV from it (which works perfectly) and installed DECnet-Plus from the
distribution. I set it up with the same details as for Phase IV and
configured the same MAC and area/node - clearly I will not boot both at the
same time! The simh setup is identical for both version of the server apart
for my having increased memory from 128M to 256M to see if that helped (it
didn't).
It sort-of works, there is connectivity and adjacencies as I would expect
but it is extremely slow. If I "set host" to another machine, or from
another machine to it, it works extremely slowly, I see 3 second retries
happening all the time.
The command "SHOW NSP LOCAL NSAP <local_nsap> REMOTE NSAP * retransmitted
pdus, duplicate pdus received" suggested here
https://community.hpe.com/t5/operating-system-openvms/very-bad-performance-o
ver-native-decnet/td-p/5000605 shows the retransmit count going up.
The adjacencies are on ethernet LAN - has anyone got any experience of this
problem which might suggest what is happening?
Thanks
Peter
Peter R Whisker BA BAI CEng MIET
Chartered Engineer - IT Technical Architect
T: +44 1932 842536
M: +44 7870 171768
E: peter(a)whisker.org.uk
20 Mar
20 Mar
5:06 p.m.
I can't help much other than to confirm that I have a Decnet-Plus (aka
Phase V) system running 7.3 on a simulated Q-Bus Ethernet adapter, and it
generally works fine with no performance issues. This is on a Raspberry
Pi5 with latest OS and a version of open-simh from about a year or so ago.
In your shoes, I'd probably start with Wireshark and see if I could work
out where the packets are going missing, and/or turn on appropriate
debugging in simh.
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 at 15:31, Peter Whisker <peter(a)whisker.org.uk> wrote:
Hi
Recently I cloned one of my MicroVAX 7.3 simh servers and removed DECnet
phase IV from it (which works perfectly) and installed DECnet-Plus from the
distribution. I set it up with the same details as for Phase IV and
configured the same MAC and area/node – clearly I will not boot both at the
same time! The simh setup is identical for both version of the server apart
for my having increased memory from 128M to 256M to see if that helped (it
didn’t).
It sort-of works, there is connectivity and adjacencies as I would expect
but it is extremely slow. If I “set host” to another machine, or from
another machine to it, it works extremely slowly, I see 3 second retries
happening all the time.
The command “SHOW NSP LOCAL NSAP <local_nsap> REMOTE NSAP * retransmitted
pdus, duplicate pdus received” suggested here
https://community.hpe.com/t5/operating-system-openvms/very-bad-performance-…
shows the retransmit count going up.
The adjacencies are on ethernet LAN – has anyone got any experience of
this problem which might suggest what is happening?
Thanks
Peter
*Peter R Whisker BA BAI CEng MIET*
Chartered Engineer – IT Technical Architect
T: +44 1932 842536
M: +44 7870 171768
E: peter(a)whisker.org.uk
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se
5:50 p.m.
I've never heard of that problem that I can remember. But I do know that
in general Phase V can be considered a significant downgrade to phase IV.
Not sure why anyone really would want to run it. But there are some who do.
Johnny
On 2025-03-20 16:31, Peter Whisker wrote:
Hi
Recently I cloned one of my MicroVAX 7.3 simh servers and removed DECnet
phase IV from it (which works perfectly) and installed DECnet-Plus from
the distribution. I set it up with the same details as for Phase IV and
configured the same MAC and area/node – clearly I will not bootboth at
the same time! The simh setup is identical for both version of the
server apart for my having increased memory from 128M to 256M to see if
that helped (it didn’t).
It sort-of works, there is connectivity and adjacencies as I would
expect but it is extremely slow. If I “set host” to another machine, or
from another machine to it, it works extremely slowly, I see 3 second
retries happening all the time.
The command “SHOW NSP LOCAL NSAP <local_nsap> REMOTE NSAP *
retransmitted pdus, duplicate pdus received” suggested here https://
community.hpe.com/t5/operating-system-openvms/very-bad-performance-over-
native-decnet/td-p/5000605 <https://community.hpe.com/t5/operating-
system-openvms/very-bad-performance-over-native-decnet/td-p/5000605>
shows the retransmit count going up.
The adjacencies are on ethernet LAN – has anyone got any experience of
this problem which might suggest what is happening?
Thanks
Peter
*Peter R Whisker BA BAI CEng MIET*
Chartered Engineer – IT Technical Architect
T: +44 1932 842536
M: +44 7870 171768
E: peter(a)whisker.org.uk
_______________________________________________
HECnet mailing list -- hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
To unsubscribe send an email to hecnet-leave(a)lists.dfupdate.se
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
11:01 p.m.
On Mar 20, 2025, at 9:50 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
I've never heard of that problem that I can remember. But I do know that in general
Phase V can be considered a significant downgrade to phase IV.
Not sure why anyone really would want to run it. But there are some who do.
Johnny
I have to agree. MONK originally ran Phase V, and I *upgraded* it to Phase IV something
like 25 years ago.
Zane
21 Mar
21 Mar
4:19 p.m.
I have DECnet Phase V set up on my x86 community package running VMS 9.2-2,
mainly because it did not come with Phase IV. That pushed me into learning
Phase V "stuff" after 30 years of managing to avoid it.
I do find that it takes a few minutes after booting for it to recognise
that Phase IV nodes exist on the LAN, but that it works at a sensible speed
after that.
I only have the one Phase V system, but several Phase IV systems, so
perhaps it is expecting to find other phase V nodes "out there" and getting
confused when there are none.
Cheers
Peter Allan
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 at 22:01, Zane Healy <healyzh(a)avanthar.com> wrote:
On Mar 20, 2025, at 9:50 AM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
I've never heard of that problem that I can remember. But I do know that
in general Phase V can be considered a significant downgrade to phase IV.
Not sure why anyone really would want to run it. But there are some who do.
Johnny
I have to agree. MONK originally ran Phase V, and I *upgraded* it to
Phase IV something like 25 years ago.
Zane
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6:47 p.m.
On Mar 21, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Peter Allan
<petermallan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I have DECnet Phase V set up on my x86 community package running VMS 9.2-2, mainly
because it did not come with Phase IV. That pushed me into learning Phase V
"stuff" after 30 years of managing to avoid it.
Hm, it's been a while but I thought the installation procedure for networking gives
you a choice, phase IV or V.
I do find that it takes a few minutes after booting
for it to recognise that Phase IV nodes exist on the LAN, but that it works at a sensible
speed after that.
That's odd, I would expect it to learn as soon as it sees hellos from those nodes.
I only have the one Phase V system, but several Phase
IV systems, so perhaps it is expecting to find other phase V nodes "out there"
and getting confused when there are none.
I too have just one Phase V system (like yours, a VMS/x86 node). It seemed to work ok,
though I haven't done much with it.
FWIW, my reason for installing it is to test Phase V. It's been many years since I
helped define Phase V, and in all those years I never actually had a running system. So I
thought it was about time. Another reason is the well known one "because it's
there". Some day PyDECnet will get Phase V support. If nothing else, stuff like
DecDTS would be useful.
The unfortunate problem is that the Phase V architecture specs are incomplete; a bunch
exist on-line but not all of them. The other problem is that the lower layers are in
substantial part defined by OSI standards, and finding reasonably accurate free copies is
not so easy either.
paul
9:04 p.m.
On 3/21/2025 12:47 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Mar 21, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Peter Allan
<petermallan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
The OpenVMS install does, but the VSI Community License Program only give you
access to a pre-built VM which only has DECnet phase V installed.
I have DECnet Phase V set up on my x86 community
package running VMS 9.2-2, mainly because it did not come with Phase IV. That pushed me
into learning Phase V "stuff" after 30 years of managing to avoid it.
Hm,
it's been a while but I thought the installation procedure for networking gives you a
choice, phase IV or V.
paul
John H. Reinhardt
9:08 p.m.
On Mar 21, 2025, at 4:04 PM, John H. Reinhardt
<johnhreinhardt(a)thereinhardts.org> wrote:
On 3/21/2025 12:47 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
I think I was using an earlier community release which wasn't quite so pre-built.
paul
On Mar 21, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Peter Allan
<petermallan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
The OpenVMS install does, but the VSI Community License Program only give you
access to a pre-built VM which only has DECnet phase V installed.
I have DECnet Phase V set up on my x86 community package running VMS 9.2-2, mainly
because it did not come with Phase IV. That pushed me into learning Phase V
"stuff" after 30 years of managing to avoid it.
Hm, it's been a while but I thought the installation procedure for networking
gives you a choice, phase IV or V.
9:39 p.m.
On 3/21/2025 3:08 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Mar 21, 2025, at 4:04 PM, John H. Reinhardt
<johnhreinhardt(a)thereinhardts.org> wrote:
Yes. It was about last April (2024) when VSI changed the format of the CLP from providing
PAKs and FTP access to install media to a pre-built VM with a version of x86 OpenVMS
installed with various LP and options and no access to install media.
--
John H. Reinhardt
On 3/21/2025 12:47 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
I think I was
using an earlier community release which wasn't quite so pre-built.
paul
On Mar 21, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Peter
Allan<petermallan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
The OpenVMS install does, but the VSI Community License Program only give you
access to a pre-built VM which only has DECnet phase V installed. I have DECnet Phase V set up on my x86 community
package running VMS 9.2-2, mainly because it did not come with Phase IV. That pushed me
into learning Phase V "stuff" after 30 years of managing to avoid it.
Hm, it's been a while but I thought the installation procedure for networking
gives you a choice, phase IV or V.
11:50 p.m.
If memory serves, DECnet (any phase) is covered by the OPENVMS-X86-OE or OPENVMS-X86-HAOE
OpenVMS licence paks pre-installed as part of the ‘community’ vmdk, so you should be able
to install the phase IV VMSINSTAL’ables and stop phase V from starting up in
systartup_vms.com
Just a thought
Keith
From: John H. Reinhardt [mailto:johnhreinhardt@thereinhardts.org]
Sent: 21 March 2025 20:39
To: hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
Subject: [HECnet] Re: DECnet-Plus and Decnet Phase IV interoperability
On 3/21/2025 3:08 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Mar 21, 2025, at 4:04 PM, John H. Reinhardt
<johnhreinhardt@thereinhardts.org><mailto:johnhreinhardt@thereinhardts.org>
wrote:
On 3/21/2025 12:47 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Mar 21, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Peter Allan
<petermallan@gmail.com><mailto:petermallan@gmail.com> wrote:
I have DECnet Phase V set up on my x86 community package running VMS 9.2-2, mainly because
it did not come with Phase IV. That pushed me into learning Phase V "stuff"
after 30 years of managing to avoid it.
Hm, it's been a while but I thought the installation procedure for networking gives
you a choice, phase IV or V.
The OpenVMS install does, but the VSI Community License Program only give you access to a
pre-built VM which only has DECnet phase V installed.
I think I was using an earlier community release which wasn't quite so pre-built.
paul
Yes. It was about last April (2024) when VSI changed the format of the CLP from providing
PAKs and FTP access to install media to a pre-built VM with a version of x86 OpenVMS
installed with various LP and options and no access to install media.
--
John H. Reinhardt
22 Mar
22 Mar
2:03 a.m.
I believe you are right. The question is if the DECnet IV executables are present. There
are no installation kits that I know of. I haven't checked as I don't have a CLP
version running at the moment.
John H. Reinhardt
On 3/21/2025 5:50 PM, Keith Halewood wrote:
If memory serves, DECnet (any phase) is covered by the OPENVMS-X86-OE or OPENVMS-X86-HAOE
OpenVMS licence paks pre-installed as part of the ‘community’ vmdk, so you should be able
to install the phase IV VMSINSTAL’ables and stop phase V from starting up in
systartup_vms.com
Just a thought
Keith
*From:*John H. Reinhardt [mailto:johnhreinhardt@thereinhardts.org]
*Sent:* 21 March 2025 20:39
*To:* hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
*Subject:* [HECnet] Re: DECnet-Plus and Decnet Phase IV interoperability
On 3/21/2025 3:08 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Mar 21, 2025, at 4:04 PM, John H. Reinhardt
<johnhreinhardt(a)thereinhardts.org> <mailto:johnhreinhardt@thereinhardts.org>
wrote:
On 3/21/2025 12:47 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Mar 21, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Peter Allan<petermallan(a)gmail.com>
<mailto:petermallan@gmail.com> wrote:
I have DECnet Phase V set up on my x86 community package running VMS
9.2-2, mainly because it did not come with Phase IV. That pushed me into learning Phase V
"stuff" after 30 years of managing to avoid it.
Hm, it's been a while but I thought the installation procedure for
networking gives you a choice, phase IV or V.
The OpenVMS install does, but the VSI Community License Program only give you
access to a pre-built VM which only has DECnet phase V installed.
I think I was using an earlier community release which wasn't quite so
pre-built.
paul
Yes. It was about last April (2024) when VSI changed the format of the CLP from providing
PAKs and FTP access to install media to a pre-built VM with a version of x86 OpenVMS
installed with various LP and options and no access to install media.
--
John H. Reinhardt
_______________________________________________
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--
John H. Reinhardt
PRRT&HS #8909
C&O HS #11530
NRail (NTrak) #54979044 (7566)
25 Mar
25 Mar
3:47 p.m.
One major annoyance that I have with DECnet phase V, once I have got it
working, is that I can't find any way of telling it about the phase IV
nodes on my network other than by using DECNET_REGISTER.EXE. This involves
manual typing, so it is fine for a few nodes, but not for hundreds.
I now want to configure several hundred nodes (i.e. the nodes in the HECnet
node database) for my phase V system. Does anyone know how to do this with
a command procedure?
Cheers
Peter Allan
On Sat, 22 Mar 2025 at 01:03, John H. Reinhardt <
johnhreinhardt(a)thereinhardts.org> wrote:
I believe you are right. The question is if the
DECnet IV executables are
present. There are no installation kits that I know of. I haven't checked
as I don't have a CLP version running at the moment.
John H. Reinhardt
On 3/21/2025 5:50 PM, Keith Halewood wrote:
If memory serves, DECnet (any phase) is covered by the OPENVMS-X86-OE or
OPENVMS-X86-HAOE OpenVMS licence paks pre-installed as part of the
‘community’ vmdk, so you should be able to install the phase IV
VMSINSTAL’ables and stop phase V from starting up in systartup_vms.com
Just a thought
Keith
*From:* John H. Reinhardt [mailto:johnhreinhardt@thereinhardts.org
<johnhreinhardt(a)thereinhardts.org>]
*Sent:* 21 March 2025 20:39
*To:* hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se
*Subject:* [HECnet] Re: DECnet-Plus and Decnet Phase IV interoperability
On 3/21/2025 3:08 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Mar 21, 2025, at 4:04 PM, John H. Reinhardt
<johnhreinhardt(a)thereinhardts.org> <johnhreinhardt(a)thereinhardts.org>
wrote:
On 3/21/2025 12:47 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Mar 21, 2025, at 11:19 AM, Peter Allan <petermallan(a)gmail.com>
<petermallan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I have DECnet Phase V set up on my x86 community package running VMS 9.2-2, mainly
because it did not come with Phase IV. That pushed me into learning Phase V
"stuff" after 30 years of managing to avoid it.
Hm, it's been a while but I thought the installation procedure for networking gives
you a choice, phase IV or V.
The OpenVMS install does, but the VSI Community License Program only give you access to a
pre-built VM which only has DECnet phase V installed.
I think I was using an earlier community release which wasn't quite so pre-built.
paul
Yes. It was about last April (2024) when VSI changed the format of the CLP
from providing PAKs and FTP access to install media to a pre-built VM with
a version of x86 OpenVMS installed with various LP and options and no
access to install media.
--
John H. Reinhardt
_______________________________________________
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--
John H. Reinhardt
PRRT&HS #8909
C&O HS #11530
NRail (NTrak) #54979044 (7566)
_______________________________________________
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4:07 p.m.
On Mar 25, 2025, at 10:47 AM, Peter Allan
<petermallan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
One major annoyance that I have with DECnet phase V, once I have got it working, is that
I can't find any way of telling it about the phase IV nodes on my network other than
by using DECNET_REGISTER.EXE. This involves manual typing, so it is fine for a few nodes,
but not for hundreds.
I now want to configure several hundred nodes (i.e. the nodes in the HECnet node
database) for my phase V system. Does anyone know how to do this with a command procedure?
Just take the node list and edit each line to be the NCL command needed. It would be
handy if that script were provided, but it's a simple enough transformation.
paul
4:47 p.m.
Uh, Paul...
You made me create MIM::HECNET:FIX.PHV which should already be what any
phase V node needs... ;-)
Johnny
On 2025-03-25 16:07, Paul Koning wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Mar 25, 2025, at 10:47 AM, Peter Allan
<petermallan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
One major annoyance that I have with DECnet phase V, once I have got it working, is that
I can't find any way of telling it about the phase IV nodes on my network other than
by using DECNET_REGISTER.EXE. This involves manual typing, so it is fine for a few nodes,
but not for hundreds.
I now want to configure several hundred nodes (i.e. the nodes in the HECnet node
database) for my phase V system. Does anyone know how to do this with a command procedure?
Just take the node list and edit each line to be the NCL command needed. It would be
handy if that script were provided, but it's a simple enough transformation.
paul
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5:27 p.m.
Ah. I had forgotten that.
paul
On Mar 25, 2025, at 11:47 AM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
Uh, Paul...
You made me create MIM::HECNET:FIX.PHV which should already be what any phase V node
needs... ;-)
Johnny
On 2025-03-25 16:07, Paul Koning wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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On Mar
25, 2025, at 10:47 AM, Peter Allan <petermallan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
One major annoyance that I have with DECnet phase V, once I have got it working, is that
I can't find any way of telling it about the phase IV nodes on my network other than
by using DECNET_REGISTER.EXE. This involves manual typing, so it is fine for a few nodes,
but not for hundreds.
I now want to configure several hundred nodes (i.e. the nodes in the HECnet node
database) for my phase V system. Does anyone know how to do this with a command procedure?
Just take the node list and edit each line to be the NCL command needed. It would
be handy if that script were provided, but it's a simple enough transformation.
paul
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7:59 p.m.
On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 at 16:27, Paul Koning <paulkoning(a)comcast.net> wrote:
Ah. I had forgotten that.
paul
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On Mar 25, 2025, at 11:47 AM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
Uh, Paul...
You made me create MIM::HECNET:FIX.PHV which should already be what any
phase V
node needs... ;-)
Johnny
On 2025-03-25 16:07, Paul Koning wrote:
>> On Mar 25, 2025, at 10:47 AM, Peter Allan <petermallan(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> One major annoyance that I have with DECnet phase V, once I have got
it
working, is that I can't find any way of telling it about the phase IV
nodes on my network other than by using DECNET_REGISTER.EXE. This involves
manual typing, so it is fine for a few nodes, but not for hundreds.
>>
>> I now want to configure several hundred nodes (i.e. the nodes in the
HECnet node database) for my phase V system. Does anyone know how to do
this with a command procedure?
> Just take the node list and edit each line to
be the NCL command
needed. It would be handy if that script were provided, but
it's a simple
enough transformation.
paul
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Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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8 p.m.
Ah, I will get hold of the relevant file on MIM.
Thanks both.
Peter
On Tue, 25 Mar 2025 at 16:27, Paul Koning <paulkoning(a)comcast.net> wrote:
Ah. I had forgotten that.
paul
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On Mar 25, 2025, at 11:47 AM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
Uh, Paul...
You made me create MIM::HECNET:FIX.PHV which should already be what any
phase V
node needs... ;-)
Johnny
On 2025-03-25 16:07, Paul Koning wrote:
>> On Mar 25, 2025, at 10:47 AM, Peter Allan <petermallan(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> One major annoyance that I have with DECnet phase V, once I have got
it
working, is that I can't find any way of telling it about the phase IV
nodes on my network other than by using DECNET_REGISTER.EXE. This involves
manual typing, so it is fine for a few nodes, but not for hundreds.
>>
>> I now want to configure several hundred nodes (i.e. the nodes in the
HECnet node database) for my phase V system. Does anyone know how to do
this with a command procedure?
> Just take the node list and edit each line to
be the NCL command
needed. It would be handy if that script were provided, but
it's a simple
enough transformation.
paul
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Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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21 Mar
21 Mar
8:29 p.m.
"Not sure why anyone would want to run it" ? I could say the same about RSX
:)
Phase V is a lot more complicated, but I wouldn't agree at all that it's a
"downgrade" on Phase IV, apart from in ease of configuration.
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 at 16:50, Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
I've never heard of that problem that I can
remember. But I do know that
in general Phase V can be considered a significant downgrade to phase IV.
Not sure why anyone really would want to run it. But there are some who do.
Johnny
8:36 p.m.
RSX is so beautifully designed and implemented 😍
On Fri, 21 Mar 2025, 19:30 Trevor Warwick, <twarwick(a)gmail.com> wrote:
"Not sure why anyone would want to run it" ?
I could say the same about
RSX :)
Phase V is a lot more complicated, but I wouldn't agree at all that it's a
"downgrade" on Phase IV, apart from in ease of configuration.
On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 at 16:50, Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
I've never heard of that problem that I can
remember. But I do know that
in general Phase V can be considered a significant downgrade to phase IV.
Not sure why anyone really would want to run it. But there are some who
do.
Johnny
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18 comments
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participants (8)
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John H. Reinhardt -
Johnny Billquist -
Keith Halewood -
Paul Koning -
Peter Allan -
Peter Whisker -
Trevor Warwick -
Zane Healy