21 Apr
2021
21 Apr
'21
5:06 p.m.
Is there a Windows utility that will read and write RT11 files from TU58,
RX01/2 or RL01/2 images? A Linux utility would be OK too.
I know about PUTR, but it doesn't appear that it can run under any recent
(e.g. 64 bit) version of Windows..
And EXCHANGE on VMS works fine, but getting the image files on VMS in the
first place is a hassle.
Thanks,
Bob
21 Apr
21 Apr
5:21 p.m.
PUTR works great under DOSBox. You just have to copy your files back and forth.
Ray
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
________________________________
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> on behalf of
Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 11:06:17 AM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: [HECnet] Reading RT11 files under Windows or Linux
Is there a Windows utility that will read and write RT11 files from TU58, RX01/2 or
RL01/2 images? A Linux utility would be OK too.
I know about PUTR, but it doesn?t appear that it can run under any recent (e.g. 64 bit)
version of Windows..
And EXCHANGE on VMS works fine, but getting the image files on VMS in the first place is
a hassle.
Thanks,
Bob
6 p.m.
If you have Ultrix around, in included arff for this purpose...
And since Ultrix sources have been floating around, you can recompile it
under whatever.
Johnny
On 2021-04-21 17:06, Robert Armstrong wrote:
? Is there a Windows utility that will read and write
RT11 files from
TU58, RX01/2 or RL01/2 images?? A Linux utility would be OK too.
? I know about PUTR, but it doesn?t appear that it can run under any
recent (e.g. 64 bit) version of Windows..
? And EXCHANGE on VMS works fine, but getting the image files on VMS in
the first place is a hassle.
Thanks,
Bob
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
6:02 p.m.
My fsio utility in the simtools repository (<https://github.com/simh/simtools
<https://github.com/simh/simtools>>) knows how to read/write RX01/02 and RL01/2
RT11 disk images. I?ve only tested it on Linux, FreeBSD and MacOS. It should be pretty
easy to add TU58 support if you have a suitable example image.
John.
On Apr 21, 2021, at 11:06 AM, Robert Armstrong <bob
at jfcl.com> wrote:
Is there a Windows utility that will read and write RT11 files from TU58, RX01/2 or
RL01/2 images? A Linux utility would be OK too.
I know about PUTR, but it doesn?t appear that it can run under any recent (e.g. 64 bit)
version of Windows..
And EXCHANGE on VMS works fine, but getting the image files on VMS in the first place
is a hassle.
Thanks,
Bob
7:05 p.m.
Thanks! I had to build the ?non-readline? version since I don?t have the latter, but
fsio seems to work.
Bob
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of John
Forecast
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 9:02 AM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Reading RT11 files under Windows or Linux
My fsio utility in the simtools repository (<https://github.com/simh/simtools>)
knows how to read/write RX01/02 and RL01/2 RT11 disk images. I?ve only tested it on Linux,
FreeBSD and MacOS. It should be pretty easy to add TU58 support if you have a suitable
example image.
John.
On Apr 21, 2021, at 11:06 AM, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
Is there a Windows utility that will read and write RT11 files from TU58, RX01/2 or
RL01/2 images? A Linux utility would be OK too.
I know about PUTR, but it doesn?t appear that it can run under any recent (e.g. 64 bit)
version of Windows..
And EXCHANGE on VMS works fine, but getting the image files on VMS in the first place is
a hassle.
Thanks,
Bob
6:08 p.m.
On 2021-04-21 17:06, Robert Armstrong wrote:
? Is there a Windows utility that will read and write
RT11 files from
TU58, RX01/2 or RL01/2 images?? A Linux utility would be OK too.
? I know about PUTR, but it doesn?t appear that it can run under any
recent (e.g. 64 bit) version of Windows..
? And EXCHANGE on VMS works fine, but getting the image files on VMS in
the first place is a hassle.
By the way... May I suggest RSX? :-)
Getting the image in to RSX should be easy (ftp things in block mode, or
ping me and I can do that for you).
Then you can play with the image using the virtual device drivers, and FLX.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
6:14 p.m.
On Apr 21, 2021, at 12:08 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-04-21 17:06, Robert Armstrong wrote:
RSTS can also read RT11 file structure (with a tool called FIT, if I remember right. Or
FLINT, one or the other). Then you can get the resulting RSTS file off with the FLX
utility.
paul
Is there a Windows utility that will read and
write RT11 files from TU58, RX01/2 or RL01/2 images? A Linux utility would be OK too.
I know about PUTR, but it doesn?t appear that it can run under any recent (e.g. 64 bit)
version of Windows..
And EXCHANGE on VMS works fine, but getting the image files on VMS in the first place
is a hassle.
By the way... May I suggest RSX? :-)
Getting the image in to RSX should be easy (ftp things in block mode, or ping me and I
can do that for you).
Then you can play with the image using the virtual device drivers, and FLX.
Johnny
7:07 p.m.
On 2021-04-21 18:14, Paul Koning wrote:
True. But you still have the problem of how to get the files on to the
RSTS/E system... That's the kicker with RSX... You have TCP/IP. And I
know very well how to get a very simple binary image transferred to/from
your Unix system.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Apr 21, 2021, at 12:08 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2021-04-21 17:06, Robert Armstrong wrote:
RSTS can also read RT11 file structure (with a tool called FIT, if I remember right. Or
FLINT, one or the other). Then you can get the resulting RSTS file off with the FLX
utility. Is there a Windows utility that will read and
write RT11 files from TU58, RX01/2 or RL01/2 images? A Linux utility would be OK too.
I know about PUTR, but it doesn?t appear that it can run under any recent (e.g. 64
bit) version of Windows..
And EXCHANGE on VMS works fine, but getting the image files on VMS in the first place
is a hassle.
By the way... May I suggest RSX? :-)
Getting the image in to RSX should be easy (ftp things in block mode, or ping me and I
can do that for you).
Then you can play with the image using the virtual device drivers, and FLX.
Johnny
7:31 p.m.
Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
That's the kicker with RSX... You have TCP/IP.
Thanks, but VMS has FTP too... And EXCHANGE _is_ FLX - DEC decided to change the name
on VMS for some reason known only to them. All the VAXes with independent front end
processors used RT11 for the FE file system, and so exchanging files with RT11 is fairly
important there.
Bob
7:44 p.m.
On 2021-04-21 19:31, Robert Armstrong wrote:
I know. It's just that FTP under VMS sometimes might be a bit trickier
when trying to transfer binary files and get whatever format you might
want to have on the VMS side...
Just sayin'. :-)
But otherwise all true...
Well, except all VAXen with independent FE didn't use RT11. But you'll
probably hate me for this. :-)
Some used the Professional with P/OS. Some even used a MicroVAX II...
But the VAX-11 machines with a FE had something RT-11 like as the file
system.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Johnny
Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
That's the kicker with RSX... You have TCP/IP.
Thanks, but VMS has FTP too... And EXCHANGE _is_ FLX - DEC decided to change the name
on VMS for some reason known only to them. All the VAXes with independent front end
processors used RT11 for the FE file system, and so exchanging files with RT11 is fairly
important there. 
7:49 p.m.
Bob,
For future reference... what hardware do you have that you can connect the RX01/02 or
TU58 to?
I keep a MicroVAX-II around to allow imaging RX01/02/50?s, RD5x (with different
controllers), and TU58?s. Just in case. Now if I only had a RK controller for my RK05
disks I would be much happier! ?
Anyone have an RC25 unit? I have a few of them in need of imaging up before they are lost
forever...
-Steve
SF:iP1
On Apr 21, 2021, at 13:31, Robert Armstrong <bob at
jfcl.com> wrote:
?
Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
That's the kicker with RSX... You have TCP/IP.
Thanks, but VMS has FTP too... And EXCHANGE _is_ FLX - DEC decided to change the name
on VMS for some reason known only to them. All the VAXes with independent front end
processors used RT11 for the FE file system, and so exchanging files with RT11 is fairly
important there.
Bob
7:52 p.m.
The VAXen with PDP-11 consoles were RT-11 with ?special? versions of the handlers. Worked
on one of them when part of the RT group.
-Steve
SF:iP1
On Apr 21, 2021, at 13:49, Steve Davidson <steve at
davidson.net> wrote:
?Bob,
For future reference... what hardware do you have that you can connect the RX01/02 or
TU58 to?
I keep a MicroVAX-II around to allow imaging RX01/02/50?s, RD5x (with different
controllers), and TU58?s. Just in case. Now if I only had a RK controller for my RK05
disks I would be much happier! ?
Anyone have an RC25 unit? I have a few of them in need of imaging up before they are
lost forever...
-Steve
SF:iP1
> On Apr 21, 2021, at 13:31, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
>
> ?
>>
>> Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
>> That's the kicker with RSX... You have TCP/IP.
>
> Thanks, but VMS has FTP too... And EXCHANGE _is_ FLX - DEC decided to change the
name on VMS for some reason known only to them. All the VAXes with independent front end
processors used RT11 for the FE file system, and so exchanging files with RT11 is fairly
important there.
>
> Bob
>
7:55 p.m.
The 8xxx series used RSX and the PRO series with a special hardware interface to talk to
the host.
-Steve Davidson
SF:iP1
On Apr 21, 2021, at 13:52, Steve Davidson <steve at
davidson.net> wrote:
?The VAXen with PDP-11 consoles were RT-11 with ?special? versions of the handlers.
Worked on one of them when part of the RT group.
-Steve
SF:iP1
> On Apr 21, 2021, at 13:49, Steve Davidson <steve at davidson.net> wrote:
>
> ?Bob,
>
> For future reference... what hardware do you have that you can connect the RX01/02
or TU58 to?
>
> I keep a MicroVAX-II around to allow imaging RX01/02/50?s, RD5x (with different
controllers), and TU58?s. Just in case. Now if I only had a RK controller for my RK05
disks I would be much happier! ?
>
> Anyone have an RC25 unit? I have a few of them in need of imaging up before they are
lost forever...
>
> -Steve
>
> SF:iP1
>
>>> On Apr 21, 2021, at 13:31, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?
>>>
>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
>>> That's the kicker with RSX... You have TCP/IP.
>>
>> Thanks, but VMS has FTP too... And EXCHANGE _is_ FLX - DEC decided to change the
name on VMS for some reason known only to them. All the VAXes with independent front end
processors used RT11 for the FE file system, and so exchanging files with RT11 is fairly
important there.
>>
>> Bob
>>
9:04 p.m.
Steve Davidson <steve at davidson.net> wrote:
The 8xxx series used RSX and the PRO series
Well, FWIW the 82x0, 83x0 and VAXstation-8000 all had no separate front end. The
"front end" functions were implemented in special microcode for the V11 chip.
Still used an RT11 file system, though. (the 11/750 was a similar idea, but requiring
more cubic feet :)
You're right about the bigger 8000 family members - 8600, 85xx, 8800, etc - though.
I should never use the word "All" in this group :)
Bob
9:15 p.m.
On 4/21/21 3:04 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
https://xkcd.com/386/
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Steve Davidson
<steve at davidson.net> wrote:
The 8xxx series used RSX and the PRO series
Well, FWIW the 82x0, 83x0 and VAXstation-8000 all had no separate front end. The
"front end" functions were implemented in special microcode for the V11 chip.
Still used an RT11 file system, though. (the 11/750 was a similar idea, but requiring
more cubic feet :)
You're right about the bigger 8000 family members - 8600, 85xx, 8800, etc - though.
I should never use the word "All" in this group :) 
9:34 p.m.
And this was me, looking at the xkcd URL and expecting an Intel 386 joke.
Wilm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf Of Dave
McGuire
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2021 9:15 PM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Reading RT11 files under Windows or Linux
On 4/21/21 3:04 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
https://xkcd.com/386/
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Steve Davidson
<steve at davidson.net> wrote:
The 8xxx series used RSX and the PRO series
Well, FWIW the 82x0, 83x0 and VAXstation-8000 all had no separate front end. The
"front end" functions were implemented in special microcode for the V11 chip.
Still used an RT11 file system, though. (the 11/750 was a similar idea, but requiring
more cubic feet :)
You're right about the bigger 8000 family members - 8600, 85xx, 8800, etc - though.
I should never use the word "All" in this group :)
22 Apr
22 Apr
1:15 a.m.
On 2021-04-21 21:04, Robert Armstrong wrote:
:-)
By the way, the 86x0 use an F11 (if I remember right, might be a T11)
and run RT-11. So it's a very mixed bag.
In fact, the 86x0 FE are running proper RT-11, but with some special
applications to manage the VAX. All running from an RL02. I even have
the FE disk image available on MIM.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Steve Davidson
<steve at davidson.net> wrote:
The 8xxx series used RSX and the PRO series
Well, FWIW the 82x0, 83x0 and VAXstation-8000 all had no separate front end. The
"front end" functions were implemented in special microcode for the V11 chip.
Still used an RT11 file system, though. (the 11/750 was a similar idea, but requiring
more cubic feet :)
You're right about the bigger 8000 family members - 8600, 85xx, 8800, etc -
though.
I should never use the word "All" in this group :)
4:19 a.m.
Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
...
By the way, the 86x0 use an F11 (if I remember right, might be a T11)
According to the VAX handbook it was a T11...
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/vax/handbook/VAX_Hardware_Handbo…
I even have the FE disk image available on MIM.
Do you have sources for the FE software? I'd be interested in looking at those...
Bob
12:16 p.m.
On 2021-04-22 04:19, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Ah. Thanks. I probably should have looked it up before writing. First I
wrote T11, then I doubted myself, and changed it to F11. But I knew I
was trying to recollect something that I shouldn't trust my brain about.
Sadly no. Just binaries. The 86x0 is interesting in that the FE contains
all the microcode for the machine, along with diagnostics, boot files,
VMB and so on. In addition to the RT-11 system itself.
The 86x0 do load all microcode from the FE at startup time. It takes a
little while to boot an 86x0 because of this. The power system is also
software controlled, and at power up, only a single power supply is on.
Everything else is turned on by the FE at a later stage. Fun to watch
the system start up. Slowly, LED after LED lights up, as different parts
gets initialized.
I just love that machine. :-)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Johnny
Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
...
By the way, the 86x0 use an F11 (if I remember right, might be a T11)
According to the VAX handbook it was a T11...
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/vax/handbook/VAX_Hardware_Handbo…
I even have
the FE disk image available on MIM.
Do you have sources for the FE software? I'd be interested in looking at those...
2:23 p.m.
On 4/22/21 6:16 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
The 86x0 do load all microcode from the FE at startup
time. It takes a
little while to boot an 86x0 because of this. The power system is also
software controlled, and at power up, only a single power supply is on.
Everything else is turned on by the FE at a later stage. Fun to watch
the system start up. Slowly, LED after LED lights up, as different parts
gets initialized.
This is the way IBM mainframes (post-S/390, and a few earlier than
that) work too. You've probably seen the ones with the laptops built
into the front of the CPU cabinet; they run OS/2 up to the z890, and
after that they run Linux. They inject the microcode into the hardware
as a part of the POR (Power-On Reset) process. Booting (er, IPLing)
them takes quite a while, depending on the configuration.
That's how IBM turns them into zero-resale-value bricks when at
decommissioning time.
I just love that machine. :-)
I wish there were more of them around. :-(
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4:53 p.m.
On 2021-04-22 14:23, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 4/22/21 6:16 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Well, Update have two of them. One can start with the turn of a key. The
other one can maybe get to running condition, but would require some work.
The biggest problem right now is that the cooling is broken, so we even
had to turn off the 11/70, and it seems next year we might not have any
location anymore... :-(
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
The 86x0 do load all microcode from the FE at
startup time. It takes a
little while to boot an 86x0 because of this. The power system is also
software controlled, and at power up, only a single power supply is on.
Everything else is turned on by the FE at a later stage. Fun to watch
the system start up. Slowly, LED after LED lights up, as different parts
gets initialized.
This is the way IBM mainframes (post-S/390, and a few earlier than
that) work too. You've probably seen the ones with the laptops built
into the front of the CPU cabinet; they run OS/2 up to the z890, and
after that they run Linux. They inject the microcode into the hardware
as a part of the POR (Power-On Reset) process. Booting (er, IPLing)
them takes quite a while, depending on the configuration.
That's how IBM turns them into zero-resale-value bricks when at
decommissioning time.
I just love that machine. :-)
I wish there were more of them around. :-(
9:04 p.m.
On 4/22/21 10:53 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Definitely worth resurrecting.
?? I wish
there were more of them around. :-(
Well, Update have two of them. One can start with the turn of a key. The
other one can maybe get to running condition, but would require some work. The biggest problem right now is that the cooling is
broken, so we even
had to turn off the 11/70, and it seems next year we might not have any
location anymore... :-(
Well that seriously sucks. I hope you have a home for all that hardware.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
10:23 p.m.
On 2021-04-22 21:04, Dave McGuire wrote:
Me too. Trying to sort that out. Otherwise I might end up just taking
the most fun parts to my house...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 4/22/21 10:53 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Definitely worth resurrecting.
The main problem is that the fan mechanically broke. Someone good at
welding would need to look at it, and I think it needs pretty careful
balancing as well. So that is a bit of an effort.
And then we don't have that much memory for it. The primary machine have
60MB in it. I think we only have 4 or 8MB left for use in the second one.
But apart from that, I think it's all fine.
?? I
wish there were more of them around. :-(
Well, Update have two of them. One can start with the turn of a key. The
other one can maybe get to running condition, but would require some work. The biggest
problem right now is that the cooling is broken, so we even
had to turn off the 11/70, and it seems next year we might not have any
location anymore... :-(
Well that seriously sucks. I hope you have a home for all that hardware.
3:30 p.m.
On Apr 22, 2021, at 6:16 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
Sadly no. Just binaries. The 86x0 is interesting in that the FE contains all the
microcode for the machine, along with diagnostics, boot files, VMB and so on. In addition
to the RT-11 system itself.
The 86x0 do load all microcode from the FE at startup time.
Doesn't the 780 do this as well? Or, for that matter, the 730?
paul
...
Do you have sources for the FE software? I'd be interested in looking at
those...
4:15 p.m.
On 4/22/21 9:30 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
Doesn't the 780 do this as well? Or, for that matter, the 730?
On the 780 it's just microcode patches, on the 730 it's all of
microcode. (both as far as I can recall)
The 750 has microcode in ROM, but has a patchable control store, which
is....heavily used. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Do you have sources for the FE software? I'd be
interested in looking at those...
Sadly no. Just binaries. The 86x0 is interesting in that the FE contains all the
microcode for the machine, along with diagnostics, boot files, VMB and so on. In addition
to the RT-11 system itself.
The 86x0 do load all microcode from the FE at startup time.
4:53 p.m.
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On the 780 it's just microcode patches, on the 730 it's all of
microcode. (both as far as I can recall)
Dave's right - ALL the 730 microstore, including the code for the IDC and/or FPA if
you have them, is RAM. From power on a 730 takes about 15 minutes before it's even
ready to boot VMS; that's a consequence of loading all that code from a fairly slow
TU58. Don't know how long it takes an 8600, but at least it has the benefit of an
RL02 for the console media.
Most (I won't say "all"!) of the other VAXes had at least some chunk of
the microstore in ROM. Most of them had some sort of microcode patch mechanism that
allowed chunks of microcode to be loaded into RAM at power up time, but this was just a
fraction of the total microcode.
Idle curiosity makes me wonder about the V11/KA820-825 now. IT was like the 750 in that
the console functions were implemented in microcode (i.e. no front end) but it did have
console media in the form of an RX50. Can't remember if it actually loaded some
microcode patches from the diskette, like the 750 did with the TU58, or if all the V11
microcode was permanently buried in the chip.
Bob
4:57 p.m.
On 4/22/21 10:53 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Idle curiosity makes me wonder about the
V11/KA820-825 now. IT was like the 750 in that the console functions were implemented in
microcode (i.e. no front end) but it did have console media in the form of an RX50.
Can't remember if it actually loaded some microcode patches from the diskette, like
the 750 did with the TU58, or if all the V11 microcode was permanently buried in the chip.
We have an 8250 at LSSM. I don't know if it's capable of loading
microcode patches from console media, but I can tell you that it doesn't
require console media to come up. I don't know offhand if the V11 has
PCS or not.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
5:03 p.m.
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
We have an 8250 at LSSM. I don't know if it's capable of loading
microcode patches from console media, but I can tell you that it doesn't
require console media to come up.
There's an 8350, DIVISI, on HECnet but I don't power it up much. Can't
remember if I ever tried booting it without the console diskette. It has some interesting
features, being both a dual-CPU system and also the smallest BI bus VAX, but other than
that it's just not all that exciting...
Oh, and it's super annoying to work on the BI bus card cage, since you can't run
it with the cover off. It has airflow sensors and it'll shut down if you remove any
of the chassis skins.
Bob
9:05 p.m.
On 4/22/21 11:03 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
I love the idea of a pure-BI VAX. Our 8250 is by no means fast, but I
love it just the same.
We have an
8250 at LSSM. I don't know if it's capable of loading
microcode patches from console media, but I can tell you that it doesn't
require console media to come up.
There's an 8350, DIVISI, on HECnet but I don't power it up much. Can't
remember if I ever tried booting it without the console diskette. It has some interesting
features, being both a dual-CPU system and also the smallest BI bus VAX, but other than
that it's just not all that exciting... Oh, and it's super annoying to work on the BI
bus card cage, since you can't run it with the cover off. It has airflow sensors and
it'll shut down if you remove any of the chassis skins.
True. I had to rig the sensors on ours to work on it.
And while I love the design in general, upward-facing backplane slots
sure are a pain. It took me DAYS of work to get some never-before-used
BI slots functioning in that machine due to schmutz in the slots.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
10:42 p.m.
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
.... schmutz in the slots.
That's what you get for jimmying the cover interlock :)
The ZIF slots, "no cables attached to the cards" and the "identical POST
pass/fail LEDs on every card" features of BI are nice for working on, but it's a
real problem for restoration. Anything that attached to some peripheral (DEBNT, KLESI-B,
KDB50, DMB32, etc) required a special "transition header" that adapted the
backplane to the cable set for that particular device. Spare BI cards are fairly easy to
come by, but everybody has thrown away the transition headers and the cards are pretty
much useless without them.
Bob
11:31 p.m.
On 4/22/21 4:42 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Heh. :) But, ah, no. We have everything as close to "as-shipped
perfect" as possible at the museum, and even in a personal setting I'm
WAY too anal to run a machine without proper covers.
But when a BA32 sits in a dirty warehouse for twenty years, dust and
crap gets into those slots, top covers or not.
Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
.... schmutz in the slots.
That's what you get for jimmying the cover interlock :) The ZIF slots, "no cables attached to the
cards" and the "identical POST pass/fail LEDs on every card" features of BI
are nice for working on, but it's a real problem for restoration. Anything that
attached to some peripheral (DEBNT, KLESI-B, KDB50, DMB32, etc) required a special
"transition header" that adapted the backplane to the cable set for that
particular device. Spare BI cards are fairly easy to come by, but everybody has thrown
away the transition headers and the cards are pretty much useless without them.
Yes, it's awful. I have countless BI and XMI boards with no cab kits.
DEC was clearly not planning properly for the surplus and aftermarket
for their machines. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
6:45 p.m.
On 2021-04-22 16:53, Robert Armstrong wrote:
It takes a minute or two before the 86x0 is all ready and starting VMB.
Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On the 780 it's just microcode patches, on the 730 it's all of
microcode. (both as far as I can recall)
Dave's right - ALL the 730 microstore, including the code for the IDC and/or FPA
if you have them, is RAM. From power on a 730 takes about 15 minutes before it's
even ready to boot VMS; that's a consequence of loading all that code from a fairly
slow TU58. Don't know how long it takes an 8600, but at least it has the benefit of
an RL02 for the console media. Most (I won't say "all"!) of the
other VAXes had at least some chunk of the microstore in ROM. Most of them had some sort
of microcode patch mechanism that allowed chunks of microcode to be loaded into RAM at
power up time, but this was just a fraction of the total microcode.
I think that apart from the 730 and the 86x0 then, I'd say all had most
of the microcode in ROM or flash, and then some way to patch it.
But of course, I bet someone will remember the next exception. :-)
Idle curiosity makes me wonder about the
V11/KA820-825 now. IT was like the 750 in that the console functions were implemented in
microcode (i.e. no front end) but it did have console media in the form of an RX50.
Can't remember if it actually loaded some microcode patches from the diskette, like
the 750 did with the TU58, or if all the V11 microcode was permanently buried in the chip.
The 750 could definitely have the patch on the TU58, but that wasn't how
it usually was handled. Distribution was on TU58, but you normally
copied that over to the actual system, and it got patched from there.
Otherwise it would be slow and complex if you wanted to boot some or
other OS at power up. The boot selector switch only tells which device
(1 out of 4) it boots from, and unless you select TU58, it won't boot,
or suck anything in from there.
Fun fact: NetBSD still ships with the microcode patches for the
VAX-11/750, and applies them if necessary.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
21 Apr
21 Apr
9:08 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/725 with RC25 (was: Re: Reading RT11 files under Windows or Linux)
On Apr 21, 2021, at 10:49 AM, Steve Davidson <steve
at davidson.net> wrote:
Anyone have an RC25 unit? I have a few of them in need of imaging up before they are
lost forever...
I do not have one yet, but I would be interested in buying a VAX-11/725 if one came along
at the right price and location. I'm in Riverside, California, USA. I keep hearing so
much ire directed towards the RC25, that I have a sick fascination with experiencing one
for myself, and seeing just how much slower it feels vs. my 11/730.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
9:13 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/725 with RC25 (was: Re: Reading RT11 files under Windows or Linux)
On 4/21/21 3:08 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
The VAX itself won't feel any slower; it's the same board set as the
11/730.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Anyone have an
RC25 unit? I have a few of them in need of imaging up before they are lost forever...
I do not have one yet, but I would be interested in buying a VAX-11/725 if one came along
at the right price and location. I'm in Riverside, California, USA. I keep hearing so
much ire directed towards the RC25, that I have a sick fascination with experiencing one
for myself, and seeing just how much slower it feels vs. my 11/730.
10:05 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/725 with RC25 (was: Re: Reading RT11 files under Windows or Linux)
On Apr 21, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire
at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 4/21/21 3:08 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
The VAX itself won't feel any slower; it's the same board set as the
11/730.
For CPU-heavy stuff, but isn't the RC25 subsystem a lot slower than the RL02+R80
subsystem? See, I need a VAX-11/725 so I can be an expert on this stuff! :)
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
https://www.nf6x.net/
Anyone
have an RC25 unit? I have a few of them in need of imaging up before they are lost
forever...
I do not have one yet, but I would be interested in buying a VAX-11/725 if one came along
at the right price and location. I'm in Riverside, California, USA. I keep hearing so
much ire directed towards the RC25, that I have a sick fascination with experiencing one
for myself, and seeing just how much slower it feels vs. my 11/730.
10:25 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/725 with RC25 (was: Re: Reading RT11 files under Windows or Linux)
On 4/21/21 4:05 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
The VAX itself won't feel any slower; it's the same board set as the
11/730.
For CPU-heavy stuff, but isn't the RC25 subsystem a lot slower than the RL02+R80
subsystem? See, I need a VAX-11/725 so I can be an expert on this stuff! :)
Excellent acquisition rationalization. ;) But yeah, the RC25 is
noticeably slower than the (already pretty slow) IDC controller that
handles the R80 and RL02 in an 11/730. (I had an 11/725+RC25 many years
ago, and a standard-config 11/730) I was just thinking CPU differences,
of which there are none. Context fail. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Anyone have an
RC25 unit? I have a few of them in need of imaging up before they are lost forever...
I do not have one yet, but I would be interested in buying a VAX-11/725 if one came along
at the right price and location. I'm in Riverside, California, USA. I keep hearing so
much ire directed towards the RC25, that I have a sick fascination with experiencing one
for myself, and seeing just how much slower it feels vs. my 11/730.
10:34 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/725 with RC25 (was: Re: Reading RT11 files under Windows or Linux)
On Apr 21, 2021, at 4:25 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire
at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 4/21/21 4:05 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
For CPU-heavy stuff, but isn't the RC25 subsystem a lot slower than the RL02+R80
subsystem? See, I need a VAX-11/725 so I can be an expert on this stuff! :)
Excellent acquisition rationalization. ;) But yeah, the RC25 is
noticeably slower than the (already pretty slow) IDC controller that
handles the R80 and RL02 in an 11/730. (I had an 11/725+RC25 many years
ago, and a standard-config 11/730) I was just thinking CPU differences,
of which there are none. Context fail. ;)
-Dave
Is that specific to the RC25 controller used on that machine? On PDP11s, RC25 is an MSCP
device, and I don't remember ever hearing it was particularly slow. Of course, it was
a pain in the neck with its fixed drive section, but that's a different issue.
I remember when we got a fairly substantial order from the Royal Navy for RC25 based RSTS
systems (with the fixed part as the boot drive, which requires some OS hackery to allow
the OS to survive having that spin down when you need to swap the removable cartridge).
Rumor had it that those systems were going into submarines, so they needed to be small,
which the RC25 delivered. Not sure if that's accurate.
paul
> Anyone have an RC25 unit? I have a few of them in
need of imaging up before they are lost forever...
I do not have one yet, but I would be interested in buying a VAX-11/725 if one came along
at the right price and location. I'm in Riverside, California, USA. I keep hearing so
much ire directed towards the RC25, that I have a sick fascination with experiencing one
for myself, and seeing just how much slower it feels vs. my 11/730.
The VAX itself won't feel any slower; it's the same board set as the
11/730.
10:59 p.m.
New subject: VAX-11/725 with RC25 (was: Re: Reading RT11 files under Windows or Linux)
I do remember that when I housed the Canine Notes File in Spitbrook, management came to me
and said we need all your RC25 drives for a customer. What do want for them in trade? I
said 4 RD54 drives please. After they recovered from my request l got my drives! The RC25
customer was Toys-R-Us! ?
I used them for the system and data drives on a microVAX. I also had a PDP-11/23+ running
RSX. I still have the RSX drives with the RT-11 build system ( under RTEM-11) but no way
to use them...
-Steve Davidson
SF:iP1
On Apr 21, 2021, at 16:38, Paul Koning <paulkoning
at comcast.net> wrote:
?
On Apr 21, 2021, at 4:25 PM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 4/21/21 4:05 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Excellent acquisition rationalization. ;) But yeah, the RC25 is
noticeably slower than the (already pretty slow) IDC controller that
handles the R80 and RL02 in an 11/730. (I had an 11/725+RC25 many years
ago, and a standard-config 11/730) I was just thinking CPU differences,
of which there are none. Context fail. ;)
-Dave
Is that specific to the RC25 controller used on that machine? On PDP11s, RC25 is an MSCP
device, and I don't remember ever hearing it was particularly slow. Of course, it was
a pain in the neck with its fixed drive section, but that's a different issue.
I remember when we got a fairly substantial order from the Royal Navy for RC25 based RSTS
systems (with the fixed part as the boot drive, which requires some OS hackery to allow
the OS to survive having that spin down when you need to swap the removable cartridge).
Rumor had it that those systems were going into submarines, so they needed to be small,
which the RC25 delivered. Not sure if that's accurate.
paul
>>
Anyone have an RC25 unit? I have a few of them in need of imaging up before they are lost
forever...
>
> I do not have one yet, but I would be interested in buying a VAX-11/725 if one came
along at the right price and location. I'm in Riverside, California, USA. I keep
hearing so much ire directed towards the RC25, that I have a sick fascination with
experiencing one for myself, and seeing just how much slower it feels vs. my 11/730.
The VAX itself won't feel any slower; it's the same board set as the
11/730.
For CPU-heavy stuff, but isn't the RC25 subsystem a lot slower than the RL02+R80
subsystem? See, I need a VAX-11/725 so I can be an expert on this stuff! :)
22 Apr
22 Apr
1:24 a.m.
New subject: VAX-11/725 with RC25 (was: Re: Reading RT11 files under Windows or Linux)
Steve, if you sent a drive to me, I could possibly extract the
content... Just saying... :-)
RD54 have a much better chance of still working than an RD53. If you had
said RD53, I would have suggested you just nail it to a wall.
Johnny
On 2021-04-21 22:59, Steve Davidson wrote:
I do remember that when I housed the Canine Notes File
in Spitbrook, management came to me and said we need all your RC25 drives for a customer.
What do want for them in trade? I said 4 RD54 drives please. After they recovered from my
request l got my drives! The RC25 customer was Toys-R-Us! ?
I used them for the system and data drives on a microVAX. I also had a PDP-11/23+ running
RSX. I still have the RSX drives with the RT-11 build system ( under RTEM-11) but no way
to use them...
-Steve Davidson
SF:iP1
> On Apr 21, 2021, at 16:38, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> ?
>
>> On Apr 21, 2021, at 4:25 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
wrote:
>>
>> On 4/21/21 4:05 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
>>>>>> Anyone have an RC25 unit? I have a few of them in need of
imaging up before they are lost forever...
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not have one yet, but I would be interested in buying a
VAX-11/725 if one came along at the right price and location. I'm in Riverside,
California, USA. I keep hearing so much ire directed towards the RC25, that I have a sick
fascination with experiencing one for myself, and seeing just how much slower it feels vs.
my 11/730.
>>>>
>>>> The VAX itself won't feel any slower; it's the same board set as
the
>>>> 11/730.
>>>
>>> For CPU-heavy stuff, but isn't the RC25 subsystem a lot slower than the
RL02+R80 subsystem? See, I need a VAX-11/725 so I can be an expert on this stuff! :)
>>
>> Excellent acquisition rationalization. ;) But yeah, the RC25 is
>> noticeably slower than the (already pretty slow) IDC controller that
>> handles the R80 and RL02 in an 11/730. (I had an 11/725+RC25 many years
>> ago, and a standard-config 11/730) I was just thinking CPU differences,
>> of which there are none. Context fail. ;)
>>
>> -Dave
>
> Is that specific to the RC25 controller used on that machine? On PDP11s, RC25 is an
MSCP device, and I don't remember ever hearing it was particularly slow. Of course,
it was a pain in the neck with its fixed drive section, but that's a different issue.
>
> I remember when we got a fairly substantial order from the Royal Navy for RC25 based
RSTS systems (with the fixed part as the boot drive, which requires some OS hackery to
allow the OS to survive having that spin down when you need to swap the removable
cartridge). Rumor had it that those systems were going into submarines, so they needed to
be small, which the RC25 delivered. Not sure if that's accurate.
>
> paul
>
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
1:22 a.m.
New subject: VAX-11/725 with RC25 (was: Re: Reading RT11 files under Windows or Linux)
On 2021-04-21 22:34, Paul Koning wrote:
My recollection is that the drive itself is horribly slow. But I
wouldn't be surprised to learn that the controller is abysmal as well.
MSCP don't say anything about the speed of the thing.
The RQDX1 is also MSCP. But that thing is slower than molass. And you
can't blame it all on the drives...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Apr 21, 2021, at 4:25 PM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 4/21/21 4:05 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Excellent acquisition rationalization. ;) But yeah, the RC25 is
noticeably slower than the (already pretty slow) IDC controller that
handles the R80 and RL02 in an 11/730. (I had an 11/725+RC25 many years
ago, and a standard-config 11/730) I was just thinking CPU differences,
of which there are none. Context fail. ;)
-Dave
Is that specific to the RC25 controller used on that machine? On PDP11s, RC25 is an MSCP
device, and I don't remember ever hearing it was particularly slow. Of course, it was
a pain in the neck with its fixed drive section, but that's a different issue. >>
Anyone have an RC25 unit? I have a few of them in need of imaging up before they are lost
forever...
>
> I do not have one yet, but I would be interested in buying a VAX-11/725 if one came
along at the right price and location. I'm in Riverside, California, USA. I keep
hearing so much ire directed towards the RC25, that I have a sick fascination with
experiencing one for myself, and seeing just how much slower it feels vs. my 11/730.
The VAX itself won't feel any slower; it's the same board set as the
11/730.
For CPU-heavy stuff, but isn't the RC25 subsystem a lot slower than the RL02+R80
subsystem? See, I need a VAX-11/725 so I can be an expert on this stuff! :)
1:16 a.m.
New subject: VAX-11/725 with RC25 (was: Re: Reading RT11 files under Windows or Linux)
On 2021-04-21 21:08, Mark J. Blair wrote:
The 11/725 is indeed horribly slow.
The RC25 is indeed just horrible.
But they are two different things. :-)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Apr 21, 2021, at 10:49 AM, Steve Davidson
<steve at davidson.net> wrote:
Anyone have an RC25 unit? I have a few of them in need of imaging up before they are
lost forever...
I do not have one yet, but I would be interested in buying a VAX-11/725 if one came along
at the right price and location. I'm in Riverside, California, USA. I keep hearing so
much ire directed towards the RC25, that I have a sick fascination with experiencing one
for myself, and seeing just how much slower it feels vs. my 11/730.
21 Apr
21 Apr
9:11 p.m.
Steve Davidson <steve at davidson.net> wrote:
what hardware do you have that you can connect the RX01/02 or TU58 to?
The hardware in this case is a home brew T11 design that I've been playing with. It
has a TU58 (or rather, a serial port for a TU58) and an IDE interface. There's no RL
or RX - those exist only on the simh that I use to build test images for it.
I keep a MicroVAX-II around to allow imaging
RX01/02/50?s, RD5x ...
I appreciate the offer, but I have plenty of real PDP11s and VAXes here. Development on
the T11 board is a somewhat, well, iterative process and constantly moving files around
real machines is time consuming. I'm aiming for a development tool chain that runs on
a PC.
Anyone have an RC25 unit?
As it happens, I have two RC25s - one tabletop and one "bare" drive intended
for a 11/725. None of them work - I don't think these guys ever worked!
Bob
22 Apr
22 Apr
1:18 a.m.
On 2021-04-21 21:11, Robert Armstrong wrote:
When I worked at DEC back in the 80s, I had the unfortune of having to
deal with RC25. They did work back then. But it was perhaps my most
disliked disk...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Steve Davidson
<steve at davidson.net> wrote:
Anyone have an RC25 unit?
As it happens, I have two RC25s - one tabletop and one "bare" drive intended
for a 11/725. None of them work - I don't think these guys ever worked! 
21 Apr
21 Apr
9:17 p.m.
Bob
On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 11:06 AM Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
Is there a Windows utility that will read and write
RT11 files from
TU58, RX01/2 or RL01/2 images? A Linux utility would be OK too.
After reading your message, I did some mining[1] and unearthed an old
PDP-11 5th/6th edition Unix program[2] called rtpip that we used to use
back in the day to read RK05 disks on our UNIX boxes that we had created
under RT-11. Note I have not used (or compiled) it since we last ran it on
our 11/60 and 11/70 at Tektronix. If I recall it had some support for
tapes, in it but we did not have any on common tapes between the RT-11
machines and the Unix boxes, so I have not memory if any of that worked.
It does have a nasty flaw in that it uses the UNIX raw disk interface and
blindly assumes the RK05 is RT-11 format when it's writing the catalog. In
fact, this is the program I used to famously wipe out Fred Park's life work
one afternoon as the 0 and 1 keys were next to each other on one of the Tek
keyboards and I hit the wrong one....
That said, it's really simple code, so if you were to do a 'sed script'
changing of 'int' and 'register' to 'short' and then add function
prototypes for all the functions, I bet getting it to compile would not be
a huge issue. You might have look at some things like stat(2) and seek(2)
which changed, but I would expect it to be pretty straightforward [frankly
moving the man page to modern format is probably more work than the C code
itself].
Send me an email offline, and I can make it available.
Clem
1] I was recently looking for something else and thought I had seen it
among some old CMU/Tektronix stuff [did not find what I was looking for on
that crawl but ...]
2.] So the code is really old ... i.e. pre-K&R (White Book/Typesetter C *etc
-- *no stdio - just read/write) as Dennis wrote the white book using V6 and
it described the compiler that was released at that time we all tend to
call 'Typesetter C' - which was the first edition of stdio [or as it was
called then libS.a].
?
1344
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43 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
bob＠jfcl.com -
bqt＠softjar.se -
clemc＠ccc.com -
john＠forecast.name -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
nf6x＠nf6x.net -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
raywjewhurst＠gmail.com -
steve＠davidson.net -
wboerhout＠gmail.com