21 Mar
2020
21 Mar
'20
4:04 a.m.
With all this social distancing and staying home, I've been dusting off
old hardware and fixing it up. I just finished running diagnostics on a
nice little PDP-11 system. It is a -
PDP-11/53+ with 3.5Mb RAM in a BA123
KDA50 and 2xRA73 drives
DELQA NI
CXA16 16 line mux (DHV11 clone, more or less)
TQK70 and TK70 (probably worthless - those things never work)
SQ739 SCSI controller (does both MSCP and TMSCP!)
I figure I'll use the SCSI for a CDROM and a tape drive, maybe an
Exabyte. Don't really need more disk space with two RA73s already, and I'm
sure the SDI is faster than the SCSI.
So, the question is, what OS should I put on it? RSX or RSTS? It has to
be something that can make good use of the hardware.
No Unix, please - I've already got a nice 11/83 with 2.11bsd on it.
Ideas?
Bob
21 Mar
21 Mar
4:12 a.m.
On 2020-03-21 04:04, Robert Armstrong wrote:
? With all this social distancing and staying home,
I?ve been dusting
off old hardware and fixing it up.? I just finished running diagnostics
on a nice little PDP-11 system.? It is a -
?????????????? PDP-11/53+ with 3.5Mb RAM in a BA123
?????????????? KDA50 and 2xRA73 drives
?????????????? DELQA NI
?????????????? CXA16 16 line mux (DHV11 clone, more or less)
?????????????? TQK70 and TK70 (probably worthless ? those things never
work)
?????????????? SQ739 SCSI controller (does both MSCP and TMSCP!)
Nice setup.
?? I figure I?ll use the SCSI for a CDROM and a tape
drive, maybe an
Exabyte.? Don?t really need more disk space with two RA73s already, and
I?m sure the SDI is faster than the SCSI.
Actually, I would probably suspect SCSI would outrun the SDI. We have
four RA73 on Magica (11/70), and at home I have SCSI on an 11/93.
So it is a little tricky to do a simple comparison, but I get roughly
two to three times as many I/Os per second on my 11/93 with SCSI.
One big reason is probably that I have fairly "modern" SCSI disks, so
seek times are way better than the RA73s have.
? So, the question is, what OS should I put on it??
RSX or RSTS?? It
has to be something that can make good use of the hardware.
? No Unix, please ? I?ve already got a nice 11/83 with 2.11bsd on it.
? Ideas?
Of course I would vote RSX. :-)
Well, actually, have you used either OS before? If you feel familiar
with one or the other, it might be a good starting point.
With RSX, you do have TCP/IP, and a bit more DECnet functionality, but
otherwise I don't think the difference between them are that big. They
certainly are rather different, but if you're alone on the system more
or less, it makes less of a difference.
And by the way, the TK70 I have found to generally be pretty good a
reliable. The TK50 is the horrible one. At most, I have needed to clean
the heads on TK70, but otherwise they usually run just fine. But if I
get a TK50, I might as well just toss it out...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
4:20 a.m.
Well, actually, have you used either OS before?
I've used RSX professionally some, and it's basically like VMS anyway :)
(Note the smiley, Johnny!) It's not too hard to adjust, especially if you
set your CLI to DCL (although I'd consider that cheating).
Never got paid to use RSTS for anything, and I have very little experience
with it. But that just means it's an opportunity to learn...
Actually I don't know how well either OS will do at supporting
"non-standard" devices on the SQ739, like CDROMs or Exabytes. In theory
MSCP is MSCP, but in practice it's often not that simple.
Also I don't know how fast (or how slow) either OS would be on an 11/53.
It's not a slow CPU (it's basically the same as a 11/73) but it's not the
fastest either.
Bob
4:29 a.m.
On 2020-03-21 04:20, Robert Armstrong wrote:
RSX is indeed a lot like VMS. And especially if you look under the hood.
But, from a user experience point of view, if you go with the latest
version of RSTS/E, it feels even more like VMS than RSX does. (You'll be
surprised...)
Well,
actually, have you used either OS before?
I've used RSX professionally some, and it's basically like VMS anyway :)
(Note the smiley, Johnny!) It's not too hard to adjust, especially if you
set your CLI to DCL (although I'd consider that cheating). Never got paid to use RSTS for anything, and I have
very little experience
with it. But that just means it's an opportunity to learn...
Indeed. RSTS/E is more proper timesharing, while RSX is kindof a hybrid
between timesharing and realtime... RSTS/E is sometimes a bit nicer in
its behavior. RSX can have some rough edges, even when talking 11M-PLUS.
Actually I don't know how well either OS will
do at supporting
"non-standard" devices on the SQ739, like CDROMs or Exabytes. In theory
MSCP is MSCP, but in practice it's often not that simple.
Been running CDROMs and Exabytes on my RSX systems for years without
problems. RSTS/E can sometimes be a bit more picky, I've heard.
Also I don't know how fast (or how slow) either
OS would be on an 11/53.
It's not a slow CPU (it's basically the same as a 11/73) but it's not the
fastest either.
I think the 11/53 commonly ran at 15 MHz, while the 11/73 could be found
with 18 MHz. But otherwise yes, same basic system, really.
Not a speed demon. Upgrading to an 11/83 does make a noticeable difference.
But you should be pretty ok running either OS.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
4:19 p.m.
Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
I think the 11/53 commonly ran at 15 MHz, while the 11/73 could be found
with 18 MHz. But otherwise yes, same basic system, really.
Not a speed demon. Upgrading to an 11/83 does make a noticeable difference.
The big win for the 11/83 was the PMI bus, not the clock speed. That's entirely
different hardware, though, and not much I can do about that. PMI memory wouldn't be
a problem in the BA123, but I don't believe there was ever an 11/83 board made with
S-box handles. Actually, I think the 11/53 and 53+ were the only S-Box PDP-11s made (at
least they're the only ones I remember).
The M8190-AB (I think) 11/73 board was 15MHz and the M8190-AE 11/73 was 18MHz. And
you're right - the 11/53 was 15MHz. Again, I don't think DEC ever made a 18Mhz
11/53.
Bob
5:28 p.m.
On 2020-03-21 16:19, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Right. I didn't even say anything about clock speeds of the 11/83.
Johnny
Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
I think the 11/53 commonly ran at 15 MHz, while the 11/73 could be found
with 18 MHz. But otherwise yes, same basic system, really.
Not a speed demon. Upgrading to an 11/83 does make a noticeable difference.
The big win for the 11/83 was the PMI bus, not the clock speed. That's entirely different hardware, though, and
not much I can do about that. PMI memory wouldn't be a problem in the BA123, but I
don't believe there was ever an 11/83 board made with S-box handles. Actually, I
think the 11/53 and 53+ were the only S-Box PDP-11s made (at least they're the only
ones I remember).
Hum? The BA123 takes plain ordinary Qbus cards, unless I totally
mistaken. The S-box style came with the BA213. And I didn't even know
that the 11/53 came with those. I thought it was possibly just the
special variant for the DECserver 550 (or whatever it was called) which
is (I guess) sortof like an 11/53, not not truly. But I guess you could
just change boot proms, and possibly that would be enough...
The hardware differences between the 11/73 and 11/83 is purely a
question of different memory. PMI, as you said. And the PMI memories can
actually also be used as normal Qbus memories. So, up/downgrading
between 11/73 and 11/83 becomes just a question of moving the boards around.
The M8190-AB (I think) 11/73 board was 15MHz and
the M8190-AE 11/73 was 18MHz. And you're right - the 11/53 was 15MHz. Again, I
don't think DEC ever made a 18Mhz 11/53.
Right. The 11/53 was always at 15 MHz. 11/73 and 11/83 can be the exact
same CPU boards. The system tells the difference based on what type of
memory is plugged in. That said, there were several revisions of the CPU
board, some running at 15 MHz, some at 18 MHz. Some could use the FPA,
some could not.
11/53 is actually M7554, while 11/73 and 11/83 is M8190, which existed
in AB, AC, AD and AE variants (as well as one with no suffix).
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
6:29 p.m.
Ok, here's the message with the attachments replaced by links, to satisfy the 40K
limit...
Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
Hum? The BA123 takes plain ordinary Qbus cards, unless I totally
mistaken. The S-box style came with the BA213. And I didn't even know
that the 11/53 came with those.
You're right - it is a BA213. The BA123 was the "World Box" and the 213
is the "Skunk Box" (aka S-Box). The 123 held RDxx drives and the 213 held RAxx
drives. My memory is getting a little dyslexic apparently. Sorry.
And yes, the 11/53 (KDJ11-SD) came with S-Box handles. See the pictures.
BTW, the Golden Retriever is not a DEC product :)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KgrMXKqvOR3PSPLDqvS75ISXszBUnuHR
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1y2kPE0Y74k92HVZTE7p9IXvB8qIaFYHh
Bob
6:32 p.m.
On 3/21/20 1:29 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
You're right - it is a BA213. The BA123 was the
"World Box" and the 213 is the "Skunk Box" (aka S-Box). The 123 held
RDxx drives and the 213 held RAxx drives. My memory is getting a little dyslexic
apparently. Sorry.
And yes, the 11/53 (KDJ11-SD) came with S-Box handles. See the pictures.
BTW, the Golden Retriever is not a DEC product :)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KgrMXKqvOR3PSPLDqvS75ISXszBUnuHR
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1y2kPE0Y74k92HVZTE7p9IXvB8qIaFYHh
Beautiful PDP-11, and beautiful dog!
(And I say that as very much a cat person, so you can tell him/her not
to take that compliment lightly!)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
6:44 p.m.
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
(And I say that as very much a cat person, so you can tell him/her not
to take that compliment lightly!)
Cats are OK, but you can't go out and do stuff with your cat the way you can with a
dog. There are actually three Goldens living here at the moment, although Memphis was the
only one hanging out in the garage when I took the photo.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yCqir6kaVpylP2VgxgLtENJz3uiQSyw1
And yes, they do shed, 24x7 and all year long, like you wouldn't believe. Keeping
the fuzz out of the computers is a constant struggle. Not giving up the dogs, though!
Bob
6:51 p.m.
On Mar 21, 2020, at 10:44 AM, Robert Armstrong <bob
at jfcl.com> wrote:
Cats are OK, but you can't go out and do stuff with your cat the way you can with a
dog. There are actually three Goldens living here at the moment, although Memphis was the
only one hanging out in the garage when I took the photo.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yCqir6kaVpylP2VgxgLtENJz3uiQSyw1
They are beautiful! I would like to send virtual hugs to all of them.
--
Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
6:59 p.m.
On 3/21/20 1:44 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
That assumes one wants to "go out"...I sure as hell don't! ;)
But I woke up today essentially buried in purring cats, excitedly
waiting for Autumn and I to get out of bed. That was nice. :)
(And I say
that as very much a cat person, so you can tell him/her not
to take that compliment lightly!)
Cats are OK, but you can't go out and do stuff with your cat the way you can with a
dog. There are actually three Goldens living here at the
moment, although Memphis was the only one hanging out in the garage when I took the
photo.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yCqir6kaVpylP2VgxgLtENJz3uiQSyw1
Beautiful pups!
And yes, they do shed, 24x7 and all year long, like
you wouldn't believe. Keeping the fuzz out of the computers is a constant struggle.
Not giving up the dogs, though!
Hey man, computers have intake filters (or at least grilles) for a
reason! 8-)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
7:22 p.m.
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
assumes one wants to "go out"...I sure as hell don't! ;)
Yeah, didn't really anticipate the world as know it coming to an end on my shift...
The dogs are getting pretty bored and really wish the humans would get their problems
worked out so they can go back to life as usual. The cats probably haven't noticed
anything different :)
Bob
7:25 p.m.
On 3/21/20 2:22 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Yeah. The cats know something is up; like most dogs they can feel the
stress and the worry. But their lives aren't much different.
But I was mainly just yanking your chain; I don't want to go out
whether there's a deadly virus going around or not! My life hasn't
changed much either. :) I detest the outdoors, myself.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
assumes one wants to "go out"...I sure as hell don't! ;)
Yeah, didn't really anticipate the world as know it coming to an end on my shift...
The dogs are getting pretty bored and really wish the humans would get their problems
worked out so they can go back to life as usual. The cats probably haven't noticed
anything different :) 
7:29 p.m.
Everyone is so crazy, "OMG I have to work from home!"
I've been doing it for years now. Wouldn't have it any other way.
-brian
On Mar 21, 2020, 14:25 -0400, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>, wrote:
On 3/21/20 2:22 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Yeah. The cats know something is up; like most dogs they can feel the
stress and the worry. But their lives aren't much different.
But I was mainly just yanking your chain; I don't want to go out
whether there's a deadly virus going around or not! My life hasn't
changed much either. :) I detest the outdoors, myself.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Dave
McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
assumes one wants to "go out"...I sure as hell don't! ;)
Yeah, didn't really anticipate the world as know it coming to an end on my shift...
The dogs are getting pretty bored and really wish the humans would get their problems
worked out so they can go back to life as usual. The cats probably haven't noticed
anything different :)
8:50 p.m.
On 3/21/20 2:29 PM, Brian Hechinger wrote:
Everyone is so crazy, "OMG I have to work from
home!"
I've been doing it for years now. Wouldn't have it any other way.
Same here. I think a lot of people don't have the discipline to do it
effectively, though.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
8:57 p.m.
I think a lot of people don't have the discipline
to do it
effectively, though.
For some people it's a radical new idea. My wife works for a college and, although
they've had some online classes for years, the idea of becoming entirely online is a
big deal for them. They have no clue how they're going to do it.
And we have another friend who works as a secretary for an investment broker, and she
doesn't even have Internet at home. Had to scramble to get Comcast to hook her up.
That's unusual, though...
Bob
9:01 p.m.
On 3/21/20 3:57 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
I guess a lot of the tools and techniques for providing education are
very much tuned for in-person use, probably just due to how the evolved
from the village schoolhouse ages ago. This will be a time of rapid
evolution of all such processes.
It's interesting (as well as terrifying) to watch this happen. I
don't think many people realize the degree to which this situation is
catalytic for what will be nothing short of a seismic shift in how the
basic fabric of our society functions.
I think a lot
of people don't have the discipline to do it
effectively, though.
For some people it's a radical new idea. My wife works for a college and, although
they've had some online classes for years, the idea of becoming entirely online is a
big deal for them. They have no clue how they're going to do it. And we have another friend who works as a secretary
for an investment broker, and she doesn't even have Internet at home. Had to scramble
to get Comcast to hook her up. That's unusual, though...
Wow, yeah. It's 2020, after all. Wow.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
9:02 p.m.
It seems weird to me, since I've worked at home often over the years. My test bench at
home is pretty much on par with my bench at work; better in some areas, worse in others.
But it ought to be similar, since I'm the one who picked out all of the equipment in
both cases!
I hope that after this over, more people will accept and understand working from home and
telepresence in general, after getting forced to have a taste of it. We use a lot of
energy and create a lot of pollution just moving people around needlessly.
--
Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
9:11 p.m.
On 3/21/20 4:02 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
It seems weird to me, since I've worked at home
often over the years. My test bench at home is pretty much on par with my bench at work;
better in some areas, worse in others. But it ought to be similar, since I'm the one
who picked out all of the equipment in both cases!
I hope that after this over, more people will accept and understand working from home and
telepresence in general, after getting forced to have a taste of it. We use a lot of
energy and create a lot of pollution just moving people around needlessly.
Unfortunately a lot of that is done so that suits can "keep an eye on
us" and feel like they are in control and important. Many people base
their perceptions on their own value as people by how many other
peoples' lives they control, essentially lording peoples' livelihoods
over their heads.
This will likely persist as long as so many colleges continue to be
for-profit businesses, and continue to emphasize sports over education.
A lot of it is also just societal habit. I once had a small argument
with the (older) wife of a friend, when he was not present. She was
venting that he "hasn't even had a job in like six years!" He worked as
a contractor, almost always from home, and was highly paid. My response
to this unemployed wife was something like "The how is it that you, with
no job, live in a 3,000 square foot house and have three new cars?"
There was no response.
So, "a job" is generally taken to mean "Go to someone else's
building
at a specific time every day and do things that they tell you, that you
don't necessarily want to do". Fortunately those perceptions are
starting to change for the great unwashed, but they are getting a great
big kick in the butt this week, to be sure.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
7:06 p.m.
On 2020-03-21 18:29, Robert Armstrong wrote:
No worry. I often have to go and refresh my brain on these different
micro boxes. It is a bit confusing most of the time, I think.
Ok, here's the message with the attachments
replaced by links, to satisfy the 40K limit...
:-)
Johnny
Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
Hum? The BA123 takes plain ordinary Qbus cards, unless I totally
mistaken. The S-box style came with the BA213. And I didn't even know
that the 11/53 came with those.
You're right - it is a BA213. The BA123 was the "World Box" and the 213
is the "Skunk Box" (aka S-Box). The 123 held RDxx drives and the 213 held RAxx
drives. My memory is getting a little dyslexic apparently. Sorry. And yes, the 11/53 (KDJ11-SD) came with S-Box
handles. See the pictures.
Interesting. Thanks. I wonder why they did that one with S-Box handles.
Some specific product or something? Anyone know any more about that detail?
BTW, the Golden Retriever is not a DEC product :)
Looks nice though.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
7:26 p.m.
On 2020-03-21 19:23, Robert Armstrong wrote:
I think that might have been the DECserver 550 then. I though it had
different boot roms. But maybe that is the case, and the CPU board is
otherwise exactly the same?
There was also some solution which offloaded work of multiple DZV (I
think it was) which I can't remember the name off, which I wonder if it
might also be related...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Johnny
Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
I wonder why they did that one with S-Box handles.
Some specific product or something? Anyone know any more about that detail?
It was used, along with a bunch of the CXA/CXY muxes, for some terminal servers. I
forget the DEC name..
7:27 p.m.
On 3/21/20 2:26 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2020-03-21 19:23, Robert Armstrong wrote:
I think that might have been the DECserver 550 then. I though it had
different boot roms. But maybe that is the case, and the CPU board is
otherwise exactly the same?
Yes, same board, different ROMs. You can (and I have) convert them
back and forth.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Johnny
Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
I wonder why they did that one with S-Box handles.
Some specific product or something? Anyone know any more about that
detail?
?? It was used, along with a bunch of the CXA/CXY muxes, for some
terminal servers.? I forget the DEC name..
7:40 p.m.
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Yes, same board, different ROMs. You can (and I have) convert them
back and forth.
Yeah, what he said :)
I believe though, but I could be wrong, that the KDJ11-SD (the S-Box version) was also
available with the standard ROMs. If that's true then it would imply that a generic
PDP-11 in a BA213 was some kind of product that one could buy. But even if you
couldn't, it's not that hard to build one.
Bob
7:26 p.m.
On 3/21/20 2:23 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
DECserver-500 and -550.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Johnny
Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
I wonder why they did that one with S-Box handles.
Some specific product or something? Anyone know any more about that detail?
It was used, along with a bunch of the CXA/CXY muxes, for some terminal servers. I
forget the DEC name..
4:23 a.m.
Oh, and there's also the question of what's available in terms of
installation media for either OS. I'd want the most recent version I could
find, and hopefully something Y2K compliant so I don't have to fudge the
system date. And it has to have DECnet, so it can be on HECnet, of course.
And whatever languages are available.
Bob
4:30 a.m.
On 2020-03-21 04:23, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Oh, and there's also the question of what's
available in terms of
installation media for either OS. I'd want the most recent version I could
find, and hopefully something Y2K compliant so I don't have to fudge the
system date. And it has to have DECnet, so it can be on HECnet, of course.
And whatever languages are available.
I believe you should be able to find all you need on trailing-edge.
And yes, for both, the latest version is Y2K compliant.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
5:05 a.m.
Bob,
On the installation media, you might see if a SCSI2SD card would work on the SQ739 SCSI
controller. I?ve had very good luck with the V5.0 and V5.1 SCSI2SD boards on many
different PDP-11s. Then you just build up your installion on Simh and transfer the disk
image to a MicroSD card. Stick it in the SCSI2SD and boot.
Later when you have RSX up and Johnny?s TCP/IP going you can download images direct to
RSX and use VCP to access them.
Best,
Mark
On Mar 20, 2020, at 10:23 PM, Robert Armstrong <bob
at jfcl.com> wrote:
Oh, and there's also the question of what's available in terms of
installation media for either OS. I'd want the most recent version I could
find, and hopefully something Y2K compliant so I don't have to fudge the
system date. And it has to have DECnet, so it can be on HECnet, of course.
And whatever languages are available.
Bob
4:12 p.m.
Mark Matlock <mark at matlockfamily.com> wrote:
just build up your installion on Simh and transfer the disk image
It's a good idea, and that's pretty much what I had in mind (although without
the SD card). The RA73 drives I can easily hook up to a VAX, and then I can just FTP the
simh disk image over there, write the RA73 image with VMS, and then boot the PDP11.
I've done this with XXDP and RT11 images on smaller disks (RD54 or RL02s) before, and
it works fine.
Thanks,
Bob
6:17 p.m.
On March 21, 2020 11:12:07 AM "Robert Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
We do this all the time at LSSM. There's a MicroVAX-3 in the back private area that
has a KDA50 in it, and we have a REALLY LONG cable that we can pull to pretty much
anywhere on the main exhibit floor where the minis are. That machine also has an RLV12
and an RL02 for imaging those packs, in either direction.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Mark Matlock
<mark at matlockfamily.com> wrote:
just build up your installion on Simh and transfer the disk image
It's a good idea, and that's pretty much what I had in mind (although without
the SD card). The RA73 drives I can easily hook up to a VAX, and then I can just FTP the
simh disk image over there, write the RA73 image with VMS, and then boot the PDP11.
I've done this with XXDP and RT11 images on smaller disks (RD54 or RL02s) before, and
it works fine. 
6:38 p.m.
On 3/20/2020 10:23 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Oh, and there's also the question of what's
available in terms of
installation media for either OS. I'd want the most recent version I could
find, and hopefully something Y2K compliant so I don't have to fudge the
system date. And it has to have DECnet, so it can be on HECnet, of course.
And whatever languages are available.
Bob
For RSTS/E you can find a lot at Brett Bump's RSTS.ORG site.
Downloads in general: <http://www.rsts.org/autoindex.php?dir=distros>
? RSTS/E specific:
??? PRe-made disks: <http://www.rsts.org/autoindex.php?dir=distros/RSTS_disks/>
Pre-Genned for SimH or E11:
<http://www.rsts.org/autoindex.php?dir=distros/RSTS_kits/>
??? Distribution tape images:
<http://www.rsts.org/autoindex.php?dir=distros/RSTS_tapes/>
I'm not sure if he's applied any Y2K patches to any of the later V9, V10) kits.
--
John H. Reinhardt
7:04 p.m.
On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:38 PM, John H. Reinhardt
<johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org> wrote:
On 3/20/2020 10:23 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
V10.1 is Y2K compliant out of the box. (Nearly so, at least; DECnet has some small
glitches.) V9.6 isn't Y2K compliant, I don't know if patches exist for it.
On some of the earlier comments and questions: RSTS includes both RSX and RT11 emulation.
In both cases, this is the non-realtime subset, but it means that applications generally
work. RT11 emulation has been there since V5B, when it was added as the way SYSGEN is
done. RSX emulation came not much later. Many of the programming languages are
essentially the RSX products, either unmodified or slightly tweaked. Basic-Plus-2, Cobol,
etc...
TECO, of course, that too has been around since V5.
V9 added limited support for asynchronous I/O with ASTs, on disks and on TMSCP and TS11
tape drives. That was done to make the new fast BACKUP tool go fast on streaming tape
drives.
DCL: Around V9 this became a serious tool, and somewhere around that time it became the
default command interface. It supports many of the same features as VMS, including
various "programming" features like conditionals, loops, string variables and
functions, etc. Some have different names to match BASIC, so you can't quite take a
VMS command file and just run it, but they are "culturally compatible".
Also starting in V9, DCL support includes indirect command files with output logging, done
for the "batch" feature but generally available. It's actually done in the
kernel, which is some interesting magic. You can log your interactive session to a log
file, with time stamps on each output line if you want.
BACKUP: the V9 version is a subset of the VMS program. It writes backupsets that VMS can
read, and it can read VMS backup sets with some limitations. Block size limit is smaller,
I think, and there are some considerations for directory names since RSTS doesn't have
names.
File systems: Steve is right, RT11 is the universal format. Or tapes, of course. There
is one other option: Fred Knight's RSTSFLX tool for VMS, if you can find a copy, will
read (and perhaps write, I forgot) RSTS disks. My rstsflx tool (V2 in C, V3 in Python)
was inspired by that. You can probably compile my rstsflx v2 on VMS and use that instead
of Fred's program.
Programming languages: there's DECUS ALGOL, similar to Burroughs extended ALGOL. I
need to exhume the sources for that. And part of the V10 kit, as "unsupported"
is FORTH, including a RSTS crash dump interactive analyzer (called SDA after the VMS
example) written in Forth.
paul
Oh, and there's also the question of
what's available in terms of
installation media for either OS. I'd want the most recent version I could
find, and hopefully something Y2K compliant so I don't have to fudge the
system date. And it has to have DECnet, so it can be on HECnet, of course.
And whatever languages are available.
Bob
For RSTS/E you can find a lot at Brett Bump's RSTS.ORG site.
Downloads in general: <http://www.rsts.org/autoindex.php?dir=distros>
RSTS/E specific:
PRe-made disks: <http://www.rsts.org/autoindex.php?dir=distros/RSTS_disks/>
Pre-Genned for SimH or E11:
<http://www.rsts.org/autoindex.php?dir=distros/RSTS_kits/>
Distribution tape images:
<http://www.rsts.org/autoindex.php?dir=distros/RSTS_tapes/>
I'm not sure if he's applied any Y2K patches to any of the later V9, V10) kits.
7:11 p.m.
On 3/21/20 1:38 PM, John H. Reinhardt wrote:
...
I'm really glad Brett is still kicking, and still into RSTS. He was
my RSTS mentor 34 years ago when I was 17; we spent many long nights on
the phone (he in Nebraska, me in NJ) with me in front of my PDP-11/34.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
?? Oh, and
there's also the question of what's available in terms of
installation media for either OS.? I'd want the most recent version I
could
find, and hopefully something Y2K compliant so I don't have to fudge the
system date.? And it has to have DECnet, so it can be on HECnet, of
course.
And whatever languages are available.
Bob
For RSTS/E you can find a lot at Brett Bump's RSTS.ORG site.
7:23 p.m.
On 2020-03-21 19:11, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 3/21/20 1:38 PM, John H. Reinhardt wrote:
...
I'm really glad Brett is still kicking, and still into RSTS. He was
my RSTS mentor 34 years ago when I was 17; we spent many long nights on
the phone (he in Nebraska, me in NJ) with me in front of my PDP-11/34.
Maybe someone should reach out to him, and see if he'd be interesting in
joining this merry gang?
(I sortof wonder if he used to be subscribed, but mails started
bouncing, but I might be confusing people...)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
?? Oh,
and there's also the question of what's available in terms of
installation media for either OS.? I'd want the most recent version I
could
find, and hopefully something Y2K compliant so I don't have to fudge the
system date.? And it has to have DECnet, so it can be on HECnet, of
course.
And whatever languages are available.
Bob
For RSTS/E you can find a lot at Brett Bump's RSTS.ORG site.
7:26 p.m.
On 3/21/20 2:23 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Maybe someone should reach out to him, and see if he'd be interesting in
joining this merry gang?
(I sortof wonder if he used to be subscribed, but mails started
bouncing, but I might be confusing people...)
Hmm ok, I will ask him!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
For RSTS/E you can find a lot at Brett Bump's
RSTS.ORG site.
...
?? I'm really glad Brett is still kicking, and still into RSTS.? He was
my RSTS mentor 34 years ago when I was 17; we spent many long nights on
the phone (he in Nebraska, me in NJ) with me in front of my PDP-11/34.
7:44 p.m.
John H. Reinhardt <johnhreinhardt at
thereinhardts.org> wrote:
For RSTS/E you can find a lot at Brett Bump's RSTS.ORG site.
Thanks. I found the 10.1 distro tapes, but I can't find an DECnet tapes. Was
DECnet/E a separate product, or was it standard with RSTS (at least at the end)?
Bob
8:02 p.m.
You should be able to see it here:
http://82.70.71.173:9135/decnet-e_v4_1.tap
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Robert Armstrong
Sent: 21 March 2020 18:44
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] RSX or RSTS
John H. Reinhardt <johnhreinhardt at
thereinhardts.org> wrote:
For RSTS/E you can find a lot at Brett Bump's RSTS.ORG site.
Thanks. I found the 10.1 distro tapes, but I can't find an DECnet tapes. Was
DECnet/E a separate product, or was it standard with RSTS (at least at the end)?
Bob
8:07 p.m.
I think a part of the trick is to realize that the version numbers of
DECnet/E do not match the version numbers of the rest of the system...
4.1 being the version to use with RSTS/E V10.1.
Not sure exactly which versions of DECnet/E goes with which versions of
RSTS/E...
Johnny
On 2020-03-21 20:02, Keith Halewood wrote:
You should be able to see it here:
http://82.70.71.173:9135/decnet-e_v4_1.tap
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Robert Armstrong
Sent: 21 March 2020 18:44
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] RSX or RSTS
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
John H. Reinhardt <johnhreinhardt at
thereinhardts.org> wrote:
For RSTS/E you can find a lot at Brett Bump's RSTS.ORG site.
Thanks. I found the 10.1 distro tapes, but I can't find an DECnet tapes. Was
DECnet/E a separate product, or was it standard with RSTS (at least at the end)?
Bob
8:13 p.m.
Looks like I found and used the following tapes:
-rwx------ 1 localuser users? 1904488 Mar? 8 20:55 decnet-e_v4_1.tap
-r--r--r-- 1 localuser users 24096588 Mar? 8 20:18
rstse_v10_1_install_sep10_1992.tap
https://gist.github.com/tuklusan/5bac2642f1903d09e0c47378c725baea
I can send you the tapes and/or the whole directory for 31.28 (RST101)
On 3/21/20 3:07 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
I think a part of the trick is to realize that the
version numbers of
DECnet/E do not match the version numbers of the rest of the system...
4.1 being the version to use with RSTS/E V10.1.
Not sure exactly which versions of DECnet/E goes with which versions
of RSTS/E...
? Johnny
On 2020-03-21 20:02, Keith Halewood wrote:
--
Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT
39.19151 N, 77.23432 W
QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet
You should be able to see it here:
http://82.70.71.173:9135/decnet-e_v4_1.tap
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On
Behalf Of Robert Armstrong
Sent: 21 March 2020 18:44
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] RSX or RSTS
John H. Reinhardt <johnhreinhardt at
thereinhardts.org> wrote:
For RSTS/E you can find a lot at Brett Bump's RSTS.ORG site.
?? Thanks.? I found the 10.1 distro tapes, but I can't find an DECnet
tapes.? Was DECnet/E a separate product, or was it standard with RSTS
(at least at the end)?
Bob
8:21 p.m.
Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
I think a part of the trick is to realize that the version numbers of
DECnet/E do not match the version numbers of the rest of the system...
Yeah, it's a problem with several DEC systems. I was installing TOPS-10 the other
day and Tim has a bunch of those tapes on his site (which I _could_ find, for some reason)
and figuring out which tape goes with which OS release can be tricky.
Bob
9:31 p.m.
On Mar 21, 2020, at 3:07 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
I think a part of the trick is to realize that the version numbers of DECnet/E do not
match the version numbers of the rest of the system...
4.1 being the version to use with RSTS/E V10.1.
Not sure exactly which versions of DECnet/E goes with which versions of RSTS/E...
Johnny
Yes, it's confusing. I think it goes like this:
RSTS DECnet
6C 1.0
7.0 1.1
7.2 2.0
9.0 2.1
9.3 4.0
?? 4.1
Not sure when 1.1 kicks in, or if both work with 6C through 7.1. Don't know either
when 4.1 replaces 4.0 or if it's required.
paul
9:37 p.m.
I installed the 4.1 tape on an otherwise bare 10.1 installation of RSTS
On 21 Mar 2020, at 20:33, Paul Koning <paulkoning
at comcast.net> wrote:
?
On Mar 21, 2020, at 3:07 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
I think a part of the trick is to realize that the version numbers of DECnet/E do not
match the version numbers of the rest of the system...
4.1 being the version to use with RSTS/E V10.1.
Not sure exactly which versions of DECnet/E goes with which versions of RSTS/E...
Johnny
Yes, it's confusing. I think it goes like this:
RSTS DECnet
6C 1.0
7.0 1.1
7.2 2.0
9.0 2.1
9.3 4.0
?? 4.1
Not sure when 1.1 kicks in, or if both work with 6C through 7.1. Don't know either
when 4.1 replaces 4.0 or if it's required.
paul
9:55 p.m.
Both ROSSAK and TLEILX on HECnet are via Ethernet circuits. My attempts at DMC (I think)
didn?t work so well.
On 21 Mar 2020, at 20:41, Dave McGuire <mcguire at
neurotica.com> wrote:
?On 3/21/20 4:37 PM, Keith Halewood wrote:
I installed the 4.1 tape on an otherwise bare
10.1 installation of RSTS
Me too, a few years ago on an 11/53. Works great.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA 
10:04 p.m.
PLUTO:: runs RSTS/E 10.1L and DECnet version 4.1
-Steve Davidson
SF:iP1
On Mar 21, 2020, at 16:37, Keith Halewood
<Keith.Halewood at pitbulluk.org> wrote:
?I installed the 4.1 tape on an otherwise bare 10.1 installation of RSTS
> On 21 Mar 2020, at 20:33, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> ?
>
>>> On Mar 21, 2020, at 3:07 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se>
wrote:
>>
>> I think a part of the trick is to realize that the version numbers of DECnet/E do
not match the version numbers of the rest of the system...
>>
>> 4.1 being the version to use with RSTS/E V10.1.
>>
>> Not sure exactly which versions of DECnet/E goes with which versions of
RSTS/E...
>>
>> Johnny
>
> Yes, it's confusing. I think it goes like this:
>
> RSTS DECnet
> 6C 1.0
> 7.0 1.1
> 7.2 2.0
> 9.0 2.1
> 9.3 4.0
> ?? 4.1
>
> Not sure when 1.1 kicks in, or if both work with 6C through 7.1. Don't know
either when 4.1 replaces 4.0 or if it's required.
>
> paul
>
11:13 p.m.
Bob,
As I understand it it would look more like 10.1.12 or 10.1-12 but
they only had room for 1 additional character in the string or value
field. Paul would know for sure.
-Steve
On Sat, 2020-03-21 at 14:14 -0700, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Steve Davidson
<steve at davidson.net> wrote:
PLUTO:: runs RSTS/E 10.1L and DECnet version 4.1
Dumb RSTS question - what is the "L" in 10.1L ?? Is that a patch
level of some kind?
Bob
22 Mar
22 Mar
4:01 a.m.
On 3/21/20 6:13 PM, Steve Davidson wrote:
As I understand it it would look more like 10.1.12 or
10.1-12 but
they only had room for 1 additional character in the string or value
field. Paul would know for sure.
Ok, so I have a distribution that I received a few years ago with the
filename "rsts10-1.tap". I thought that was the last release; is this
10.1L you're talking about later than that?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
9:55 a.m.
I have no idea. If you install it and run systat you will know for sure though...
-Steve, NA1T
SF:iP1
On Mar 21, 2020, at 23:01, Dave McGuire <mcguire at
neurotica.com> wrote:
?On 3/21/20 6:13 PM, Steve Davidson wrote:
As I understand it it would look more like
10.1.12 or 10.1-12 but
they only had room for 1 additional character in the string or value
field. Paul would know for sure.
Ok, so I have a distribution that I received a few years ago with the
filename "rsts10-1.tap". I thought that was the last release; is this
10.1L you're talking about later than that?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
6:47 p.m.
Well yeah, I've been running it for years. ;) I just thought 10.1
(with no further suffix) was the last release. This is from my systat
output:
RSTS V10.1-L RSTS/E V10.1
So, more than 10.1, but not exactly 10.1L. Is this in fact 10.1L?
(I'd not heard of "10.1L" before this thread)
-Dave
On 3/22/20 4:55 AM, Steve Davidson wrote:
I have no idea. If you install it and run systat you
will know for sure though...
-Steve, NA1T
SF:iP1
> On Mar 21, 2020, at 23:01, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>
> ?On 3/21/20 6:13 PM, Steve Davidson wrote:
>> As I understand it it would look more like 10.1.12 or 10.1-12 but
>> they only had room for 1 additional character in the string or value
>> field. Paul would know for sure.
>
> Ok, so I have a distribution that I received a few years ago with the
> filename "rsts10-1.tap". I thought that was the last release; is this
> 10.1L you're talking about later than that?
>
> -Dave
>
> --
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
7:10 p.m.
I?m pretty sure the final version was 10.1A, it has additional Y2K fixes not found in
10.1. The Mentec SPD doesn?t mention the version other than 10.1, but I?d saved it as
10.1A, which seems to indicate I?m remembering correctly.
Zane
On Mar 22, 2020, at 10:47 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire
at neurotica.com> wrote:
Well yeah, I've been running it for years. ;) I just thought 10.1
(with no further suffix) was the last release. This is from my systat
output:
RSTS V10.1-L RSTS/E V10.1
So, more than 10.1, but not exactly 10.1L. Is this in fact 10.1L?
(I'd not heard of "10.1L" before this thread)
-Dave
11:59 p.m.
Yes, V10.1A is/was the last. See
http://web.archive.org/web/20031001175609/http://www.mentec-inc.com/RSTSSW.…
Apparently .1A is an update to 10.1, but I can't find anything more
about .1A than what's on that page.
Johnny
On 2020-03-22 19:10, Zane Healy wrote:
I?m pretty sure the final version was 10.1A, it has
additional Y2K fixes not found in 10.1. The Mentec SPD doesn?t mention the version other
than 10.1, but I?d saved it as 10.1A, which seems to indicate I?m remembering correctly.
Zane
> On Mar 22, 2020, at 10:47 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>
>
> Well yeah, I've been running it for years. ;) I just thought 10.1
> (with no further suffix) was the last release. This is from my systat
> output:
>
> RSTS V10.1-L RSTS/E V10.1
>
> So, more than 10.1, but not exactly 10.1L. Is this in fact 10.1L?
>
> (I'd not heard of "10.1L" before this thread)
>
> -Dave
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
23 Mar
23 Mar
5:57 a.m.
So, NOT V10.1L, then?
-Dave
On 3/22/20 6:59 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Yes, V10.1A is/was the last. See
http://web.archive.org/web/20031001175609/http://www.mentec-inc.com/RSTSSW.…
Apparently .1A is an update to 10.1, but I can't find anything more
about .1A than what's on that page.
? Johnny
On 2020-03-22 19:10, Zane Healy wrote:
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I?m pretty sure the final version was 10.1A, it
has additional Y2K
fixes not found in 10.1.? The Mentec SPD doesn?t mention the version
other than 10.1, but I?d saved it as 10.1A, which seems to indicate
I?m remembering correctly.
Zane
> On Mar 22, 2020, at 10:47 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> ? Well yeah, I've been running it for years. ;)? I just thought 10.1
> (with no further suffix) was the last release.? This is from my systat
> output:
>
> RSTS V10.1-L RSTS/E V10.1
>
> ? So, more than 10.1, but not exactly 10.1L.? Is this in fact 10.1L?
>
> (I'd not heard of "10.1L" before this thread)
>
> ????????????? -Dave
22 Mar
22 Mar
10:13 p.m.
I was not precise enough. I get V10.1-L also.
Zane, I have a 10.1-A in a source file, but I don't know what was released. The SPD
wouldn't call out base level identifiers, it just gives the major.minor version
numbers.
paul
On Mar 22, 2020, at 1:47 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire
at neurotica.com> wrote:
Well yeah, I've been running it for years. ;) I just thought 10.1
(with no further suffix) was the last release. This is from my systat
output:
RSTS V10.1-L RSTS/E V10.1
So, more than 10.1, but not exactly 10.1L. Is this in fact 10.1L?
(I'd not heard of "10.1L" before this thread)
-Dave
4:31 p.m.
On Mar 21, 2020, at 5:14 PM, Robert Armstrong <bob
at jfcl.com> wrote:
No, the patch levels aren't directly shown. It's the base level designation. If
that term is not familiar: base level is a DEC (and others) term for a step in the
development cycle where a bunch of stuff gets integrated. Typically there were a dozen or
so base levels per release. In early RSTS releases, the minor version was a letter and
the base level a number (V4A-12); then as of V7.0 the minor release code changed to a
letter and then the baselevel became a letter to have the whole thing fit in 6 characters.
paul
Steve Davidson <steve at davidson.net>
wrote:
PLUTO:: runs RSTS/E 10.1L and DECnet version 4.1
Dumb RSTS question - what is the "L" in 10.1L ?? Is that a patch level of some
kind?
Bob
4:57 p.m.
Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
It's the base level designation.
Thanks, Paul. So did the base level releases come before the real
release, as in something like alpha test, beta test, field test, etc? That
would that mean that "10.1" (no letter) is a later release than
"10.1L"?
Or was it the other way around - the base levels were issued after the
main release ? In that case 10.1L is later than 10.1?
Bob
P.S. I worked for DEC SWS for several years, but I remember us calling it
"base line" rather than "base level". Probably a regional thing. We
used
the term for any snapshot of the code base at some defined milepost, either
in time or functionality, and hopefully with stuff mostly working (though
not always so much :) I still use "base line" today for the exact same
thing.
5:42 p.m.
On Mar 22, 2020, at 11:57 AM, Robert Armstrong <bob
at jfcl.com> wrote:
No, the base levels were during the development cycle. So the first internal checkpoint
would have bee 10.1A, beta might have been 10.1G or something like that, and production
release a few baselevels later so L. The release would get whatever base level
designation applied to the final baselevel of the release cycle.
There was also a DEC convention, I don't remember if RSTS used it but I know RT11 did
it at least at one time, which is to use the V prefix for production releases, X for
internal development baselevels, and Y for beta. I have tucked away a copy of RT11
Y02-20, so a beta snapshot of the V2 release.
paul
Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
wrote:
It's the base level designation.
Thanks, Paul. So did the base level releases come before the real
release, as in something like alpha test, beta test, field test, etc? That
would that mean that "10.1" (no letter) is a later release than
"10.1L"?
Or was it the other way around - the base levels were issued after the
main release ? In that case 10.1L is later than 10.1? 
6:04 p.m.
On Mar 22, 2020, at 12:42 PM, Paul Koning
<paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
The RSX family also used base level for describing both internal and external releases
although the actual naming conventions differed between the various products:
RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6 BL87 2044.KW System:"RSXMPL"
1920K (word) IAS Version 3.4A Baselevel 3414
John.
On Mar 22, 2020, at 11:57 AM, Robert Armstrong
<bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
No, the base levels were during the development cycle. So the first internal checkpoint
would have bee 10.1A, beta might have been 10.1G or something like that, and production
release a few baselevels later so L. The release would get whatever base level
designation applied to the final baselevel of the release cycle.
There was also a DEC convention, I don't remember if RSTS used it but I know RT11 did
it at least at one time, which is to use the V prefix for production releases, X for
internal development baselevels, and Y for beta. I have tucked away a copy of RT11
Y02-20, so a beta snapshot of the V2 release.
paul
Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
wrote:
It's the base level designation.
Thanks, Paul. So did the base level releases come before the real
release, as in something like alpha test, beta test, field test, etc? That
would that mean that "10.1" (no letter) is a later release than
"10.1L"?
Or was it the other way around - the base levels were issued after the
main release ? In that case 10.1L is later than 10.1?
6:01 p.m.
In RSX, base level is a number, and it is constantly being increased.
For every new development cycle which result in any kind of release,
there was a new base level. (Even for purely internal releases.)
So the field trial of RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6 was at BL86. The final release
after field trial had some fixes and cleanups, and that became BL87.
Still V4.6 though.
Johnny
On 2020-03-22 16:57, Robert Armstrong wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Paul Koning
<paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
It's the base level designation.
Thanks, Paul. So did the base level releases come before the real
release, as in something like alpha test, beta test, field test, etc? That
would that mean that "10.1" (no letter) is a later release than
"10.1L"?
Or was it the other way around - the base levels were issued after the
main release ? In that case 10.1L is later than 10.1?
Bob
P.S. I worked for DEC SWS for several years, but I remember us calling it
"base line" rather than "base level". Probably a regional thing. We
used
the term for any snapshot of the code base at some defined milepost, either
in time or functionality, and hopefully with stuff mostly working (though
not always so much :) I still use "base line" today for the exact same
thing.
21 Mar
21 Mar
9:27 p.m.
Incidentally, in posting that URL, the resulting burst of activity subsequently, combined
with the fact that two of the requesting IP addresses were on Spamhaus's XBL list,
caused a bit of trouble. There was some anti-DDOS activity and it's probable that
nobody got anything.
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Keith Halewood
Sent: 21 March 2020 19:03
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] RSX or RSTS
You should be able to see it here:
http://82.70.71.173:9135/decnet-e_v4_1.tap
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Robert Armstrong
Sent: 21 March 2020 18:44
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] RSX or RSTS
John H. Reinhardt <johnhreinhardt at
thereinhardts.org> wrote:
For RSTS/E you can find a lot at Brett Bump's RSTS.ORG site.
Thanks. I found the 10.1 distro tapes, but I can't find an DECnet tapes. Was
DECnet/E a separate product, or was it standard with RSTS (at least at the end)?
Bob
8:07 p.m.
On 3/21/2020 1:44 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
DECnet V4 can be found on the Trailing-edge fTP site
<ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/rsts_dists>
There is a V4.0 and V4.1 update.
Supratim has a blog page about installing it.
<https://supratim-sanyal.blogspot.com/2019/03/deploying-pdp-1173-running-rstse-101.html>
--
John H. Reinhardt
PRRT&HS #8909
C&O HS #11530
N-Trak #7566
John H.
Reinhardt <johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org> wrote:
For RSTS/E you can find a lot at Brett Bump's RSTS.ORG site.
Thanks. I
found the 10.1 distro tapes, but I can't find an DECnet tapes. Was DECnet/E a
separate product, or was it standard with RSTS (at least at the end)?
Bob
4:32 a.m.
Nice!? How many watts does all that stuff pull?? Do you have to worry
about your heating bill while it's on?
My vote is for RSTS; there are a lot of things about it that are like
Tops-10.? Can't beat the BASIC.? Or couldn't, anyway.? I don't know if
they ever did DCL for RSTS; I wouldn't use it (I'm saving myself for VMS)
You're not allowed to run Unix unless you have a PDP-7, SIMH or
otherwise.? Unix is a waste of a perfectly good 11.
On 3/20/20 11:04 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
? With all this social distancing and staying home, I?ve been dusting
off old hardware and fixing it up.? I just finished running
diagnostics on a nice little PDP-11 system.? It is a -
?????????????? PDP-11/53+ with 3.5Mb RAM in a BA123
?????????????? KDA50 and 2xRA73 drives
?????????????? DELQA NI
?????????????? CXA16 16 line mux (DHV11 clone, more or less)
?????????????? TQK70 and TK70 (probably worthless ? those things never
work)
?????????????? SQ739 SCSI controller (does both MSCP and TMSCP!)
?? I figure I?ll use the SCSI for a CDROM and a tape drive, maybe an
Exabyte.? Don?t really need more disk space with two RA73s already,
and I?m sure the SDI is faster than the SCSI.
? So, the question is, what OS should I put on it?? RSX or RSTS?? It
has to be something that can make good use of the hardware.
? No Unix, please ? I?ve already got a nice 11/83 with 2.11bsd on it.
? Ideas?
Bob
4:36 a.m.
Thomas, you are way behind the curve...
With RSTS/E V8, DCL became sortof usable, and with V9, DCL became the
standard command line interpreter. V10 made it smell even more like VMS.
You have account privileges very similar to VMS, and the RSTS/E BACKUP
is even more or less compatible with VMS BACKUP. And I can't even
remember what else was stuffed in there in the later versions. Paul
should be able to fill in the blanks...
Basic started being almost hidden away...
Johnny
On 2020-03-21 04:32, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
Nice!? How many watts does all that stuff pull?? Do
you have to worry
about your heating bill while it's on?
My vote is for RSTS; there are a lot of things about it that are like
Tops-10.? Can't beat the BASIC.? Or couldn't, anyway.? I don't know if
they ever did DCL for RSTS; I wouldn't use it (I'm saving myself for VMS)
You're not allowed to run Unix unless you have a PDP-7, SIMH or
otherwise.? Unix is a waste of a perfectly good 11.
On 3/20/20 11:04 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
>
> ? With all this social distancing and staying home, I?ve been dusting
> off old hardware and fixing it up.? I just finished running
> diagnostics on a nice little PDP-11 system.? It is a -
>
> ?????????????? PDP-11/53+ with 3.5Mb RAM in a BA123
>
> ?????????????? KDA50 and 2xRA73 drives
>
> ?????????????? DELQA NI
>
> ?????????????? CXA16 16 line mux (DHV11 clone, more or less)
>
> ?????????????? TQK70 and TK70 (probably worthless ? those things never
> work)
>
> ?????????????? SQ739 SCSI controller (does both MSCP and TMSCP!)
>
> ?? I figure I?ll use the SCSI for a CDROM and a tape drive, maybe an
> Exabyte.? Don?t really need more disk space with two RA73s already,
> and I?m sure the SDI is faster than the SCSI.
>
> ? So, the question is, what OS should I put on it?? RSX or RSTS?? It
> has to be something that can make good use of the hardware.
>
> ? No Unix, please ? I?ve already got a nice 11/83 with 2.11bsd on it.
>
> ? Ideas?
>
> Bob
>
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
4:39 a.m.
Yep, I'm seriously trailing edge...
Last used RSTS/E on an 11/50 in 1980, so one assumes they updated a few
things.? However, we all thought it was a pretty nifty system.
On 3/20/20 11:36 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Thomas, you are way behind the curve...
With RSTS/E V8, DCL became sortof usable, and with V9, DCL became the
standard command line interpreter. V10 made it smell even more like VMS.
You have account privileges very similar to VMS, and the RSTS/E BACKUP
is even more or less compatible with VMS BACKUP. And I can't even
remember what else was stuffed in there in the later versions. Paul
should be able to fill in the blanks...
Basic started being almost hidden away...
? Johnny
On 2020-03-21 04:32, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
Nice!? How many watts does all that stuff pull??
Do you have to worry
about your heating bill while it's on?
My vote is for RSTS; there are a lot of things about it that are like
Tops-10.? Can't beat the BASIC.? Or couldn't, anyway.? I don't know
if they ever did DCL for RSTS; I wouldn't use it (I'm saving myself
for VMS)
You're not allowed to run Unix unless you have a PDP-7, SIMH or
otherwise.? Unix is a waste of a perfectly good 11.
On 3/20/20 11:04 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
>
> ? With all this social distancing and staying home, I?ve been
> dusting off old hardware and fixing it up.? I just finished running
> diagnostics on a nice little PDP-11 system.? It is a -
>
> ?????????????? PDP-11/53+ with 3.5Mb RAM in a BA123
>
> ?????????????? KDA50 and 2xRA73 drives
>
> ?????????????? DELQA NI
>
> ?????????????? CXA16 16 line mux (DHV11 clone, more or less)
>
> ?????????????? TQK70 and TK70 (probably worthless ? those things
> never work)
>
> ?????????????? SQ739 SCSI controller (does both MSCP and TMSCP!)
>
> ?? I figure I?ll use the SCSI for a CDROM and a tape drive, maybe an
> Exabyte.? Don?t really need more disk space with two RA73s already,
> and I?m sure the SDI is faster than the SCSI.
>
> ? So, the question is, what OS should I put on it?? RSX or RSTS?? It
> has to be something that can make good use of the hardware.
>
> ? No Unix, please ? I?ve already got a nice 11/83 with 2.11bsd on it.
>
> ? Ideas?
>
> Bob
>
11:36 a.m.
Bob,
With two drives why not put both operating systems on. One on each that way you get to
play until YOU decide which you like better!
-Steve
SF:IP2
On Mar 20, 2020, at 23:04, Robert Armstrong <bob at
jfcl.com> wrote:
?
With all this social distancing and staying home, I?ve been dusting off old hardware
and fixing it up. I just finished running diagnostics on a nice little PDP-11 system. It
is a -
PDP-11/53+ with 3.5Mb RAM in a BA123
KDA50 and 2xRA73 drives
DELQA NI
CXA16 16 line mux (DHV11 clone, more or less)
TQK70 and TK70 (probably worthless ? those things never work)
SQ739 SCSI controller (does both MSCP and TMSCP!)
I figure I?ll use the SCSI for a CDROM and a tape drive, maybe an Exabyte. Don?t
really need more disk space with two RA73s already, and I?m sure the SDI is faster than
the SCSI.
So, the question is, what OS should I put on it? RSX or RSTS? It has to be something
that can make good use of the hardware.
No Unix, please ? I?ve already got a nice 11/83 with 2.11bsd on it.
Ideas?
Bob
11:51 a.m.
Bob,
I forgot to ask... do you have stock in your local electric company? The BA123 is 645
watts! I know I have one with that I can run multiple boards (microVAX-II, microVAX-III,
PDP-11/23+, PDP-11/83, PDP-11/93). I use it to manage physical drives (RD5x) that I can
clone using NetBSD to virtual drives for SimH (and vise versa). NFS is a WONDERFUL
thing! :-)
I can also help with RSTS/E version 10.1L (last version) and a multitude of languages.
Set host to PLUTO:: and take a look around.
Send me mail off list for access...
-Steve, NA1T
SF:IP2
On Mar 21, 2020, at 06:36, Steve Davidson <steve at
davidson.net> wrote:
?Bob,
With two drives why not put both operating systems on. One on each that way you get to
play until YOU decide which you like better!
-Steve
SF:IP2
>> On Mar 20, 2020, at 23:04, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
>>
> ?
> With all this social distancing and staying home, I?ve been dusting off old
hardware and fixing it up. I just finished running diagnostics on a nice little PDP-11
system. It is a -
>
> PDP-11/53+ with 3.5Mb RAM in a BA123
> KDA50 and 2xRA73 drives
> DELQA NI
> CXA16 16 line mux (DHV11 clone, more or less)
> TQK70 and TK70 (probably worthless ? those things never work)
> SQ739 SCSI controller (does both MSCP and TMSCP!)
>
> I figure I?ll use the SCSI for a CDROM and a tape drive, maybe an Exabyte. Don?t
really need more disk space with two RA73s already, and I?m sure the SDI is faster than
the SCSI.
>
> So, the question is, what OS should I put on it? RSX or RSTS? It has to be
something that can make good use of the hardware.
>
> No Unix, please ? I?ve already got a nice 11/83 with 2.11bsd on it.
>
> Ideas?
>
> Bob
>
4:30 p.m.
Steve Davidson <steve at davidson.net>
With two drives why not put both operating systems on.
Not a bad idea... Just out of curiosity, can RSX mount RSTS file systems or vice versa?
So I could share user files between the two systems if I did that?
do you have stock in your local electric company?
PG&E ?!? I certainly hope not (although I have to admit that my retirement plan
might have their stock in the portfolio - it's pretty common to do so). After their
last rate hikes, I think the current baseline PG&E rate is 12 cents/kWh, and tier 1
(which I end up in most of the time) is about 19 cents/kWh. I can't afford to leave
any of the old computers running 24x7. I'd like to, but it's just not possible.
Instead I run simh on some Intel Atom thing. The whole PC, including the SSD, uses about
10-15W and can simulate a whole garage full of old computers, each one faster than the
original hardware. Kinda sad in a way, but that's progress...
I'll have to measure the power draw of the 11/53 and BA123. I don't think it
really uses 625W - that's just what the power supplies are rated for, maximum - but
it'd be interesting to see the real figure.
Bob
4:47 p.m.
Bob,
RSX and RSTS unfortunately can not share but...
Put your "shareable" files on a VMS system and enable proxy access so
that each system has access to...
-Steve
On Sat, 2020-03-21 at 08:30 -0700, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Steve Davidson
<steve at davidson.net>
With two drives why not put both operating systems on.
Not a bad idea... Just out of curiosity, can RSX mount RSTS file
systems or vice versa? So I could share user files between the two
systems if I did that?
do you have stock in your local electric company?
PG&E ?!? I certainly hope not (although I have to admit that my
retirement plan might have their stock in the portfolio - it's pretty
common to do so). After their last rate hikes, I think the current
baseline PG&E rate is 12 cents/kWh, and tier 1 (which I end up in
most of the time) is about 19 cents/kWh. I can't afford to leave any
of the old computers running 24x7. I'd like to, but it's just not
possible. Instead I run simh on some Intel Atom thing. The whole
PC, including the SSD, uses about 10-15W and can simulate a whole
garage full of old computers, each one faster than the original
hardware. Kinda sad in a way, but that's progress...
I'll have to measure the power draw of the 11/53 and BA123. I
don't think it really uses 625W - that's just what the power supplies
are rated for, maximum - but it'd be interesting to see the real
figure.
Bob
5:31 p.m.
On 2020-03-21 16:30, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Nope. :-(
The common way to share files were to have a separate disk with an RT-11
file system on it, which pretty much all DEC OSes could access...
But, with that said, if you feel adventurous, it is certainly possible
to add more file systems for RSX... It's just another ACP in the end.
It will most definitely be less than that. You really have to stuff a
lot of power hungry things into the box before you get close to the
rated max.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Steve Davidson
<steve at davidson.net>
With two drives why not put both operating systems on.
Not a bad idea... Just out of curiosity, can RSX mount RSTS file systems or vice
versa? So I could share user files between the two systems if I did that? do you have
stock in your local electric company?
PG&E ?!? I certainly hope not (although I have to admit that my retirement plan
might have their stock in the portfolio - it's pretty common to do so). After their
last rate hikes, I think the current baseline PG&E rate is 12 cents/kWh, and tier 1
(which I end up in most of the time) is about 19 cents/kWh. I can't afford to leave
any of the old computers running 24x7. I'd like to, but it's just not possible.
Instead I run simh on some Intel Atom thing. The whole PC, including the SSD, uses about
10-15W and can simulate a whole garage full of old computers, each one faster than the
original hardware. Kinda sad in a way, but that's progress...
I'll have to measure the power draw of the 11/53 and BA123. I don't think it
really uses 625W - that's just what the power supplies are rated for, maximum - but
it'd be interesting to see the real figure.
6:08 p.m.
New subject: Pictures? (was RE: RSX or RSTS)
Johnny,
Does the HECnet list forbid attachments? I posted a couple of pictures of the 11/53,
but they haven't shown up.
Bob
6:15 p.m.
New subject: Pictures? (was RE: RSX or RSTS)
On 2020-03-21 18:08, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Johnny,
Does the HECnet list forbid attachments? I posted a couple of pictures of the 11/53,
but they haven't shown up.
Hmm. There is certainly a size limit, which is what I would expect might
be what hits you.
But apart from that, I do not think it would block any attachements.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
6:22 p.m.
New subject: Pictures? (was RE: RSX or RSTS)
What's the limit? The two attachments were about 200K, total combined.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Johnny Billquist
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 10:15 AM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: Pictures? (was RE: [HECnet] RSX or RSTS)
On 2020-03-21 18:08, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Johnny,
Does the HECnet list forbid attachments? I posted a couple of pictures of the 11/53,
but they haven't shown up.
Hmm. There is certainly a size limit, which is what I would expect might
be what hits you.
But apart from that, I do not think it would block any attachements.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
6:25 p.m.
New subject: Pictures? (was RE: RSX or RSTS)
On 2020-03-21 18:22, Robert Armstrong wrote:
What's the limit? The two attachments were
about 200K, total combined.
40K total for a mail.
It's been that since the beginning of time. I'm not totally objecting to
maybe changing it. But I also think it's kind of nice to keep the size
of things down...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
7:08 p.m.
New subject: Pictures? (was RE: RSX or RSTS)
There are plenty of free image sharing options. Imgur comes to mind. Just send us links!
-brian
On Mar 21, 2020, 13:25 -0400, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se>, wrote:
On 2020-03-21 18:22, Robert Armstrong wrote:
What's the limit? The two attachments were
about 200K, total combined.
40K total for a mail.
It's been that since the beginning of time. I'm not totally objecting to
maybe changing it. But I also think it's kind of nice to keep the size
of things down...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
6:22 p.m.
Not on the 36 bit line, officially, anyway.? Tops-10 and Tops-20 had
very different file system designs.
BUT!!
One late night in Marlboro while wandering past 2102 (Tops-20 Monitor
Development), I noticed an RP04 with a cautionary sign on it showing
"Tops-10 File System Active" or some such.? I was stunned.? I have to
wonder now whether it was actually cabled to 1031 and not on 2102 at
all, still.
Tops-20 will support NFS, however.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 3/21/20 12:31 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Nope. :-(
The common way to share files were to have a separate disk with an
RT-11 file system on it, which pretty much all DEC OSes could access...
But, with that said, if you feel adventurous, it is certainly possible
to add more file systems for RSX... It's just another ACP in the end.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> On 2020-03-21 16:30, Robert Armstrong wrote:
>
> ?? Not a bad idea...? Just out of curiosity, can RSX mount RSTS file
> systems or vice versa?? So I could share user files between the two
> systems if I did that?
6:28 p.m.
On 2020-03-21 18:22, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
Not on the 36 bit line, officially, anyway.? Tops-10
and Tops-20 had
very different file system designs.
Ok, I admit. I totally ignored the 36-bitters here. :-)
Exchanging data with those usually meant DECtape or floppies, since
that's about the only media available on both with some level of
compatibility...
And then you might be talking to the front end, again, which brings us
back to a PDP-11... :-)
Or, maybe the most obvious answer: magtape... Most DEC OSes supported
ANSI magtapes.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
7:40 p.m.
On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:28 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2020-03-21 18:22, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
You can read/write RT11 format floppies on TOPS-10 using RTFLX. Unfortunately that only
appears to support RX20s on a 2020.
John.
Not on the 36 bit line, officially, anyway.
Tops-10 and Tops-20 had very different file system designs.
Ok, I admit. I totally ignored the 36-bitters here. :-)
Exchanging data with those usually meant DECtape or floppies, since that's about the
only media available on both with some level of compatibility...
And then you might be talking to the front end, again, which brings us back to a
PDP-11... :-)
Or, maybe the most obvious answer: magtape... Most DEC OSes supported ANSI magtapes.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
23 Mar
23 Mar
8:34 p.m.
Bob,
RSX and RSTS unfortunately can not share but...
Put your "shareable" files on a VMS system and enable proxy access so
that each system has access to...
-Steve
On Sat, 2020-03-21 at 08:30 -0700, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Steve Davidson
<steve at davidson.net>
With two drives why not put both operating systems on.
Not a bad idea... Just out of curiosity, can RSX mount RSTS file
systems or vice versa? So I could share user files between the two
systems if I did that?
do you have stock in your local electric company?
PG&E ?!? I certainly hope not (although I have to admit that my
retirement plan might have their stock in the portfolio - it's pretty
common to do so). After their last rate hikes, I think the current
baseline PG&E rate is 12 cents/kWh, and tier 1 (which I end up in
most of the time) is about 19 cents/kWh. I can't afford to leave any
of the old computers running 24x7. I'd like to, but it's just not
possible. Instead I run simh on some Intel Atom thing. The whole
PC, including the SSD, uses about 10-15W and can simulate a whole
garage full of old computers, each one faster than the original
hardware. Kinda sad in a way, but that's progress...
I'll have to measure the power draw of the 11/53 and BA123. I
don't think it really uses 625W - that's just what the power supplies
are rated for, maximum - but it'd be interesting to see the real
figure.
Bob
21 Mar
21 Mar
4:16 p.m.
On 3/20/2020 10:04 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
? So, the question is, what OS should I put on it?? RSX or RSTS?? It
has to be something that can make good use of the hardware.
? No Unix, please ? I?ve already got a nice 11/83 with 2.11bsd on it.
Lee K. Gleason wrote
? I've worked on RSTS and RSX both.
? WIth RSTS, DEC held you at arm's length - no real access to
internals. If you like what you get, you're OK. If you want to extend
the systems, learn about internals, add support for strange devices -
you're out of luck. It's a pretty "vanilla" sort of environment.
? WIth RSX, the internals are documented, there's a dozen ways to
access them, and you are pracatically invited to roll up your sleeves
and get to work on the innards. Strange devices (hardware and
"software" devices both) are welcome. Sources to the Executive come
with every system. Many examples are in MACRO.
? At my RSTS site, it was a good choice (it was used for Accounting
there, so stability and ease of use was important). My two RSX sites,
one had a lot of weird devices and needed plenty of extensions written
to provide needed support, and the other was an engineering site, lots
of exotic requirements, so RSX was the winner at both of those places.
?? And, a purely subjective opinion - RSX is more fun.
--
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
lee.gleason at comcast.net
1505
days inactive
1507
days old
79 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
bob＠jfcl.com -
bqt＠softjar.se -
healyzh＠avanthar.com -
john＠forecast.name -
johnhreinhardt＠thereinhardts.org -
Keith.Halewood＠pitbulluk.org -
lee.gleason＠comcast.net -
mark＠matlockfamily.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
nf6x＠nf6x.net -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
steve＠davidson.net -
supratim＠riseup.net -
tommytimesharing＠gmail.com -
wonko＠4amlunch.net