26 Apr
2015
26 Apr
'15
2:08 p.m.
Hello,
I've been attempting to (likely incorrectly) get the DEUNA emulation
working in SIMH's KS10 simulator.
Current status:
* Exists
* Has an address
* Has a vector
* Can be enabled
* Can attach to host interface
...and that's as far as I've gotten. Currently having issues getting
TOPS-10 to successfully link for KS10 with ethernet support. Anyone have
a pre-genned MONITOR executable?
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
26 Apr
26 Apr
2:56 p.m.
On Sun, 26 Apr 2015, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Hello,
I've been attempting to (likely incorrectly) get the DEUNA emulation working
in SIMH's KS10 simulator.
Current status:
* Exists
* Has an address
* Has a vector
* Can be enabled
* Can attach to host interface
...and that's as far as I've gotten. Currently having issues getting TOPS-10
to successfully link for KS10 with ethernet support. Anyone have a
pre-genned MONITOR executable?
I barely know C...but my patches work:
.r [1,2]arplst
10.10.0.9 is at d0:63:b4:00:6e:53, ttl = 300
10.10.10.2 is at 20:c9:d0:da:8f:67, ttl = 300
10.10.2.3 is at 08:00:27:6b:99:01, ttl = 300
10.10.10.1 is at 68:05:ca:2b:6e:be, ttl = 300
10.10.10.16 is at 00:14:69:e2:75:57, ttl = 300
10.10.1.3 is at 08:00:27:ca:5a:c2, ttl = 300
10.10.2.3) at 08:00:27:6b:99:01 on em0 expires
in 1068 seconds [ethernet]
(10.10.1.3) at 08:00:27:ca:5a:c2 on em0
expires in 1179 seconds [ethernet]
(10.10.10.1) at 68:05:ca:2b:6e:be on em0
permanent [ethernet]
(10.10.10.16) at 00:14:69:e2:75:57 on em0 expires in 1063 seconds
[ethernet]
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
3:30 p.m.
On Sunday, April 26, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On Sun, 26 Apr 2015, Cory Smelosky wrote:
I have very little experience with TOPS-10, and that is only as a user...
Meanwhile, we removed the DEUNA from the simh PDP10 (KS10) simulator since, according to
Timothe Litt, besides his unfinished midnight project, there was never DECnet code
delivered on the KS10 which could use it.
The arplst output suggests you're working with an IP stack here.
Where does the code for this IP stack come from, and what context was it used under?
If useful code exists, I'll be glad to put the DEUNA device back into the simh PDP10
simulator.
Please elaborate on a recipe which got you as far as the above functionality.
- Mark
Hello,
I've been attempting to (likely incorrectly) get the DEUNA emulation
working in SIMH's KS10 simulator.
Current status:
* Exists
* Has an address
* Has a vector
* Can be enabled
* Can attach to host interface
...and that's as far as I've gotten. Currently having issues getting
TOPS-10 to successfully link for KS10 with ethernet support. Anyone
have a pre-genned MONITOR executable?
I barely know C...but my patches work:
.r [1,2]arplst
10.10.0.9 is at d0:63:b4:00:6e:53, ttl = 300
10.10.10.2 is at 20:c9:d0:da:8f:67, ttl = 300
10.10.2.3 is at 08:00:27:6b:99:01, ttl = 300
10.10.10.1 is at 68:05:ca:2b:6e:be, ttl = 300
10.10.10.16 is at 00:14:69:e2:75:57, ttl = 300
10.10.1.3 is at 08:00:27:ca:5a:c2, ttl = 300
10.10.2.3) at 08:00:27:6b:99:01 on em0 expires in 1068 seconds [ethernet]
(10.10.1.3) at 08:00:27:ca:5a:c2 on em0 expires in 1179 seconds [ethernet]
(10.10.10.1) at 68:05:ca:2b:6e:be on em0 permanent [ethernet]
(10.10.10.16) at 00:14:69:e2:75:57 on em0 expires in 1063 seconds [ethernet] 
3:34 p.m.
On 04/26/2015 03:30 PM, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm wrote:
I have very little experience with TOPS-10, and that is only as a user...
Meanwhile, we removed the DEUNA from the simh PDP10 (KS10) simulator since, according to
Timothe Litt, besides his unfinished midnight project, there was never DECnet code
delivered on the KS10 which could use it.
The arplst output suggests you're working with an IP stack here.
Where does the code for this IP stack come from, and what context was it used under?
If useful code exists, I'll be glad to put the DEUNA device back into the simh PDP10
simulator.
It seems to me that, if one can plug a particular board into a slot in
a particular machine, one should be able to do the same with simh,
regardless of what *old* code may or may not support it. People are
writing new stuff for these machines all the time; witness BQT's IP
stack for RSX for example.
I myself have multiple KS10 systems here, and would love to be able to
plug DEUNAs into their Unibus chassis at some point and have it actually
work. DEUNA support in simh would surely be instrumental in allowing
that to happen.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I've been attempting to (likely incorrectly) get
the DEUNA emulation
working in SIMH's KS10 simulator.
Current status:
* Exists
* Has an address
* Has a vector
* Can be enabled
* Can attach to host interface
...and that's as far as I've gotten. Currently having issues getting
TOPS-10 to successfully link for KS10 with ethernet support. Anyone
have a pre-genned MONITOR executable?
I barely know C...but my patches work:
.r [1,2]arplst
10.10.0.9 is at d0:63:b4:00:6e:53, ttl = 300
10.10.10.2 is at 20:c9:d0:da:8f:67, ttl = 300
10.10.2.3 is at 08:00:27:6b:99:01, ttl = 300
10.10.10.1 is at 68:05:ca:2b:6e:be, ttl = 300
10.10.10.16 is at 00:14:69:e2:75:57, ttl = 300
10.10.1.3 is at 08:00:27:ca:5a:c2, ttl = 300
10.10.2.3) at 08:00:27:6b:99:01 on em0 expires in 1068 seconds [ethernet]
(10.10.1.3) at 08:00:27:ca:5a:c2 on em0 expires in 1179 seconds [ethernet]
(10.10.10.1) at 68:05:ca:2b:6e:be on em0 permanent [ethernet]
(10.10.10.16) at 00:14:69:e2:75:57 on em0 expires in 1063 seconds [ethernet] 
3:54 p.m.
On 2015-04-26 21:34, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 04/26/2015 03:30 PM, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm
wrote:
I have very little experience with TOPS-10, and that is only as a user...
Meanwhile, we removed the DEUNA from the simh PDP10 (KS10) simulator since, according to
Timothe Litt, besides his unfinished midnight project, there was never DECnet code
delivered on the KS10 which could use it.
The arplst output suggests you're working with an IP stack here.
Where does the code for this IP stack come from, and what context was it used under?
If useful code exists, I'll be glad to put the DEUNA device back into the simh PDP10
simulator.
It seems to me that, if one can plug a particular board into a slot in
a particular machine, one should be able to do the same with simh,
regardless of what *old* code may or may not support it. People are
writing new stuff for these machines all the time; witness BQT's IP
stack for RSX for example.
I myself have multiple KS10 systems here, and would love to be able to
plug DEUNAs into their Unibus chassis at some point and have it actually
work. DEUNA support in simh would surely be instrumental in allowing
that to happen.
All true and good points.
I'm curious on exactly how a DEUNA/DELUA works in a KS-10. Does anyone
know? Does it do 8-bit-byte DMA to the 18-bit memory, leaving the top
two bits alone. Or does it only work if it do word DMA (would be
strange, as the controller itself can send and receive odd byte length
ethernet packets).
And how does the whole controller actually work in a KS, since the
controller expects there to be control structures in memory, which are
used to manage the buffers. Those are expected to be 16-bit fields at
one address, and an additional 2 bits of address in another word.
Is there some potential problem with regards to a PDP-11, which have two
parity bits for data, which are used for actual data on a KS? (If I
remember right.)
In short, this is not trivial, and if it works on a real machine, the
emulation needs to reflect that truthfully, or else it will not be so
useful. I suspect it should work on a real machine, as hints suggested
that it was at least considered.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
I've been attempting to (likely incorrectly) get
the DEUNA emulation
working in SIMH's KS10 simulator.
Current status:
* Exists
* Has an address
* Has a vector
* Can be enabled
* Can attach to host interface
...and that's as far as I've gotten. Currently having issues getting
TOPS-10 to successfully link for KS10 with ethernet support. Anyone
have a pre-genned MONITOR executable?
I barely know C...but my patches work:
.r [1,2]arplst
10.10.0.9 is at d0:63:b4:00:6e:53, ttl = 300
10.10.10.2 is at 20:c9:d0:da:8f:67, ttl = 300
10.10.2.3 is at 08:00:27:6b:99:01, ttl = 300
10.10.10.1 is at 68:05:ca:2b:6e:be, ttl = 300
10.10.10.16 is at 00:14:69:e2:75:57, ttl = 300
10.10.1.3 is at 08:00:27:ca:5a:c2, ttl = 300
10.10.2.3) at 08:00:27:6b:99:01 on em0 expires in 1068 seconds [ethernet]
(10.10.1.3) at 08:00:27:ca:5a:c2 on em0 expires in 1179 seconds [ethernet]
(10.10.10.1) at 68:05:ca:2b:6e:be on em0 permanent [ethernet]
(10.10.10.16) at 00:14:69:e2:75:57 on em0 expires in 1063 seconds [ethernet]
4:14 p.m.
On Sun, 26 Apr 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:
All true and good points.
I'm curious on exactly how a DEUNA/DELUA works in a KS-10. Does anyone know?
Does it do 8-bit-byte DMA to the 18-bit memory, leaving the top two bits
alone. Or does it only work if it do word DMA (would be strange, as the
controller itself can send and receive odd byte length ethernet packets).
And how does the whole controller actually work in a KS, since the controller
expects there to be control structures in memory, which are used to manage
the buffers. Those are expected to be 16-bit fields at one address, and an
additional 2 bits of address in another word.
Is there some potential problem with regards to a PDP-11, which have two
parity bits for data, which are used for actual data on a KS? (If I remember
right.)
How does the DZ do it? THAT I know is a supported.
In short, this is not trivial, and if it works on a
real machine, the
emulation needs to reflect that truthfully, or else it will not be so useful.
I suspect it should work on a real machine, as hints suggested that it was at
least considered.
Could always do "emulation mode" and "real hardware mode".
Johnny
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
4:19 p.m.
On 2015-04-26 22:14, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Definitely doable, but if you go down that path, why even make it
somewhat similar to a DEUNA/DELUA? Then you might as well provide a
controller with way more functionality...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Sun, 26 Apr 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Haha... DZ don't do DMA. :-)
There is a reason it is a very disliked peripherial...
All true and good points.
I'm curious on exactly how a DEUNA/DELUA works in a KS-10. Does anyone
know? Does it do 8-bit-byte DMA to the 18-bit memory, leaving the top
two bits alone. Or does it only work if it do word DMA (would be
strange, as the controller itself can send and receive odd byte length
ethernet packets).
And how does the whole controller actually work in a KS, since the
controller expects there to be control structures in memory, which are
used to manage the buffers. Those are expected to be 16-bit fields at
one address, and an additional 2 bits of address in another word.
Is there some potential problem with regards to a PDP-11, which have
two parity bits for data, which are used for actual data on a KS? (If
I remember right.)
How does the DZ do it? THAT I know is a supported. In short, this
is not trivial, and if it works on a real machine, the
emulation needs to reflect that truthfully, or else it will not be so
useful. I suspect it should work on a real machine, as hints suggested
that it was at least considered.
Could always do "emulation mode" and "real hardware mode".
4:26 p.m.
On Sunday, April 26, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2015-04-26 22:14, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Definitely doable, but if you go down that path, why even make it somewhat
similar to a DEUNA/DELUA? Then you might as well provide a controller with
way more functionality...
I don't think there is any special details needed. The existing KS10 Unibus DMA seems
to do the right thing already. This works for at least the KMC, and DMC. The fact that
Cory can read packets from the wire strongly suggests that no special details are needed
(at least yet).
Since there is already existing code (in this IP stack) that knows how to actually talk
through the DEUNA, I'll put it back into the PDP10. What BUS address and VECTOR
values are the defaults for the existing IP stack?
- Mark
On Sun, 26 Apr 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Haha... DZ don't do DMA. :-)
There is a reason it is a very disliked peripherial...
All true and good points.
I'm curious on exactly how a DEUNA/DELUA works in a KS-10. Does
anyone know? Does it do 8-bit-byte DMA to the 18-bit memory, leaving
the top two bits alone. Or does it only work if it do word DMA (would
be strange, as the controller itself can send and receive odd byte
length ethernet packets).
And how does the whole controller actually work in a KS, since the
controller expects there to be control structures in memory, which
are used to manage the buffers. Those are expected to be 16-bit
fields at one address, and an additional 2 bits of address in another word.
Is there some potential problem with regards to a PDP-11, which have
two parity bits for data, which are used for actual data on a KS? (If
I remember right.)
How does the DZ do it? THAT I know is a supported. In short,
this is not trivial, and if it works on a real machine, the
emulation needs to reflect that truthfully, or else it will not be so
useful. I suspect it should work on a real machine, as hints
suggested that it was at least considered.
Could always do "emulation mode" and "real hardware mode".
4:59 p.m.
On Sun, 26 Apr 2015, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm wrote:
I don't think there is any special details needed. The existing KS10 Unibus DMA
seems to do the right thing already. This works for at least the KMC, and DMC. The fact
that Cory can read packets from the wire strongly suggests that no special details are
needed (at least yet).
Doesn't look like it, haven't confirmed SENDING to the wire works yet,
however.
Since there is already existing code (in this IP
stack) that knows how to actually talk through the DEUNA, I'll put it back into the
PDP10. What BUS address and VECTOR values are the defaults for the existing IP stack?
XU address=3774510-3774517, vector=120, MAC=08:00:2B:CC:DD:EE
- Mark
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
6:05 p.m.
On Sunday, April 26, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
XU address=3774510-3774517, vector=120, MAC=08:00:2B:CC:DD:EE
The XU device has been added back to the PDP10 simulator in the github master branch.
- Mark
On Sun, 26 Apr 2015, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm
wrote:
Doesn't look like it, haven't confirmed SENDING to the wire works yet,
however.
Input AND Output DMA works for the DMC and KDP. The exact same Unibus code paths are used
by the DEUNA/DELUA so I'm not worried.
I don't think there is any special details needed. The existing KS10 Unibus
DMA seems to do the right thing already. This works for at least the KMC,
and DMC. The fact that Cory can read packets from the wire strongly
suggests that no special details are needed (at least yet).
Since there is
already existing code (in this IP stack) that knows how to
actually talk through
the DEUNA, I'll put it back into the PDP10. What BUS
address and VECTOR values are the defaults for the existing IP stack?
4:07 p.m.
On Sun, 26 Apr 2015, Dave McGuire wrote:
It seems to me that, if one can plug a particular board into a slot in
a particular machine, one should be able to do the same with simh,
regardless of what *old* code may or may not support it. People are
writing new stuff for these machines all the time; witness BQT's IP
stack for RSX for example.
My tests largely confirm this theory.
I myself have multiple KS10 systems here, and would
love to be able to
plug DEUNAs into their Unibus chassis at some point and have it actually
work. DEUNA support in simh would surely be instrumental in allowing
that to happen.
I'll let the guy know there's interest from multiple people. Will see if
we can't get unencumbered code out in to the hands of hobbyists.
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
4:06 p.m.
On Sun, 26 Apr 2015, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm wrote:
I have very little experience with TOPS-10, and that is only as a user...
Ahh.
Meanwhile, we removed the DEUNA from the simh PDP10
(KS10) simulator since, according to Timothe Litt, besides his unfinished midnight
project, there was never DECnet code delivered on the KS10 which could use it.
That explains a lot of my issues, then. ;)
The arplst output suggests you're working with an
IP stack here.
Yeah - it proves it can receive packets at least!
Where does the code for this IP stack come from, and
what context was it used under?
ftp://ftp.stacken.kth.se/pub/pdp10/
I've only gotten arplist to work.
If useful code exists, I'll be glad to put the
DEUNA device back into the simh PDP10 simulator.
I have someone who will likely work on improving that stack.
Please elaborate on a recipe which got you as far as
the above functionality.
Copied IPTEST.EXE to SYS:, modified linker flags, adjusted the autoconfig
fields, configured vector and all that.
- Mark
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
3:32 p.m.
Cory,
In previous versions of SIMH (I think up to 3.9) it was posible to configure the DEUNA
into the KS10, but that was removed by Mark in a cleanup of non supported configurations.
I remember I tried to configure DECNET under TOPS10 under that contraption and it simply
didn't work. TOPS10 did not support the DEUNA for networking, so the only way to plug
a SIMH KS10 to DECNET is using the DUP or the DMR devices, and THAT works without problem
either under 7.04 and 7.05.
Jordi Guillaumes Pons
El 26/04/2015, a les 20:08, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> va escriure:
Hello,
I've been attempting to (likely incorrectly) get the DEUNA emulation working in
SIMH's KS10 simulator.
Current status:
* Exists
* Has an address
* Has a vector
* Can be enabled
* Can attach to host interface
...and that's as far as I've gotten. Currently having issues getting TOPS-10 to
successfully link for KS10 with ethernet support. Anyone have a pre-genned MONITOR
executable?
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
3719
days inactive
3719
days old
12 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
b4＠gewt.net -
bqt＠softjar.se -
jg＠jordi.guillaumes.name -
Mark＠infocomm.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com