On 04/23/2015 07:03 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote: Hm. Run "strings" on the binary, maybe? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ/3 New Kensington, PA

Herp, the product code is DECNET-ULTRIX... Well that wasn't so hard :) sampsa On 24 Apr 2015, at 00:31, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote:

Hello! I believe so. Hmmm. That means..... Okay how about posting a riddle in both English characters, and that script regarding who won the Punic War, and what was the theme behind it. Hint, it had to do with elephants. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 7:41 PM, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ Hecnet-list mailing list Hecnet-list at lists.sonic.net https://lists.sonic.net/mailman/listinfo/hecnet-list

On 04/23/2015 10:05 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote: Sampsa, Which version are you running? The compiler and tools should be at least 80's if not 90's. I started working with ULTRIX in the 1985/86 timeframe and the environment was always "current". -Steve

Any idea how to fix the termcap / terminfo on this? It's all messed up. Also any pointers to a place to download binaries for say editors, I'm getting a tad fed up with the circa 1984 version of 'vi' that's available. sampsa On 24 Apr 2015, at 05:35, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ Hecnet-list mailing list Hecnet-list at lists.sonic.net https://lists.sonic.net/mailman/listinfo/hecnet-list

Hmmmm? it seems that stuff is for Ultrix 4.5, and you (and me) got 4.0. What I?d like to have is the DECNET stuff for 4.5 (I?m running 4.0 just because of that). _______________________________________________ Hecnet-list mailing list Hecnet-list at lists.sonic.net https://lists.sonic.net/mailman/listinfo/hecnet-list

I've got DECnet on 4.5 I seem to recall. Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ Hecnet-list mailing list Hecnet-list at lists.sonic.net https://lists.sonic.net/mailman/listinfo/hecnet-list

El 24/04/2015, a les 10:44, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> va escriure: I've got DECnet on 4.5 I seem to recall.

OK, so any tips on making an ULTRIX box a tad more modern? The terminal definitions are all weird and the C compiler is from the 70s... Is there a nice set of BSD / GNU tools I can install on this? Or is this it?

Yeah it's insane, Hello World wouldn't compile until I changed it into this format: ---- SNIP ---- #include <stdio.h> int main(argc,argv) <--------- Type declarations, who needs that crap, everything's an int! WOOO! { printf("Hello guise\n"); } ---- END ----

Also where is the equivalent of resolv.conf on these machines? I'm going to leave this instance up and running, just for the hell of it - DECNET works (had to hack the config files that load it up to get a node database since there's no NCP COPY KNOWN NODES command lol) in and out, the address is JBEIL (8.225) and the current guest account is riddle/riddle. Leave a message, sendmail (urgh) is running, it's set up to deliver local mail. Going to maybe try to get this beast from the 70s of UNIX hell onto UUHECNET, it said it installed UUCP... Oh and if anyone solves the riddle I set in Punic / Akkadian, I'm sending them something cool from the souk in Jbeil..:) IP works in and out but name resolution doesn't (resolv.conf is there, I can ping 8.8.8.8 but the system is just like "huh?"), I wonder if that apk nutjob still makes those 100 MB hosts files.. Sampsa On 24 Apr 2015, at 03:32, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:

I know what it is, I've just never used a compiler in my life that ONLY does K&R.. But if you don't declare the parameter types they're assumed to be ints right, which works a lot of the time if a point is the size of an int and you're passing pointers around..No? sampsa On 24 Apr 2015, at 10:50, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: > On 2015-04-24 06:34, Sampsa Laine wrote: >> Yeah it's insane, Hello World wouldn't compile until I changed it into this format: >> >> ---- SNIP ---- >> #include <stdio.h> >> int main(argc,argv) <--------- Type declarations, who needs that crap, everything's an int! WOOO! >> { >> printf("Hello guise\n"); >> } >> ---- END ---- > It's called K&R. You don't have prototypes, but arguments do have types. You just declare it like this: > > int main(argc, argv) > int argc; > char **argv; > { > printf("Hello world\n"); > } > > Johnny > >> Also where is the equivalent of resolv.conf on these machines? I'm going to leave this instance up and running, just for the hell of it - DECNET works (had to hack the config files that load it up to get a node database since there's no NCP COPY KNOWN NODES command lol) in and out, the address is JBEIL (8.225) and the current guest account is riddle/riddle. >> >> Leave a message, sendmail (urgh) is running, it's set up to deliver local mail. Going to maybe try to get this beast from the 70s of UNIX hell onto UUHECNET, it said it installed UUCP... >> >> Oh and if anyone solves the riddle I set in Punic / Akkadian, I'm sending them something cool from the souk in Jbeil..:) >> >> IP works in and out but name resolution doesn't (resolv.conf is there, I can ping 8.8.8.8 but the system is just like "huh?"), I wonder if that apk nutjob still makes those 100 MB hosts files.. >> >> Sampsa >> >> >> >> On 24 Apr 2015, at 03:32, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: >> >>> On 2015-04-24 04:05, Sampsa Laine wrote: >>>> OK, so any tips on making an ULTRIX box a tad more modern? The terminal definitions are all weird and the C compiler is from the 70s... >>>> >>>> Is there a nice set of BSD / GNU tools I can install on this? Or is this it? >>> Ha ha ha... We're talking Ultrix here. You'll be lucky to find software that will even compile without you having to jump through all kind of hoops... >>> >>> You might want to start by replacing the whole syslog on that thing. We used to run Ultrix at Update a number of years ago, and got most things upgraded. It was a pain, and nowadays it will probably be an even greater pain. >>> >>> Johnny >>> >>> -- >>> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >>> || on a psychedelic trip >>> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >>> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Hecnet-list mailing list >>> Hecnet-list at lists.sonic.net >>> https://lists.sonic.net/mailman/listinfo/hecnet-list > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

On 2015-04-24 14:09, Sampsa Laine wrote: :-) Yes, the default type is int, if you don't say anything else. And with int and pointer being the same size, most of the time, everything will work just fine even when you don't declare types correctly, as the largest pitfalls are usually around pointer and int exchanges/interactions. But, like I said, you do not have prototypes, so you do not ever have any type checking. Even the number of arguments to functions are unknown and unchecked. Johnny

I don't know if calling it "insane" is reasonable, Sampsa. You've fired up a thirty-year-old OS and are expecting it to act like it's a current OS. It won't.

I ran Ultrix-32 daily back when it was current. It was (and is) a great OS.

But as with all commercial UNIX implementations, everyone fixes a bunch of stuff as their first task after installation. For Ultrix-32, nearly everyone installs GNU Tar, Bash, and GCC immediately.

The same goes for SunOS4 and HP-UX, from the same era.

Actually I like that approach quite a bit better than, say, today's Solaris for example.

You misunderstood me - the experience is just a tad worse than say VMS, I almost get the feeling that this was like their unwanted step child..

You misunderstood me - the experience is just a tad worse than say VMS, I almost get the feeling that this was like their unwanted step child..

I don't know if calling it "insane" is reasonable, Sampsa. You've fired up a thirty-year-old OS and are expecting it to act like it's a current OS. It won't. I ran Ultrix-32 daily back when it was current. It was (and is) a great OS. But as with all commercial UNIX implementations, everyone fixes a bunch of stuff as their first task after installation. For Ultrix-32, nearly everyone installs GNU Tar, Bash, and GCC immediately. The same goes for SunOS4 and HP-UX, from the same era. Actually I like that approach quite a bit better than, say, today's Solaris for example. Don't get me wrong, I love (and depend upon) Solaris, but these days it ships with dozens of open-source packages that have inexplicably been merged into the Solaris package management system. They're almost always very old releases, compiled to live in weird places in the filesystem, etc. Better to just leave them out if they won't include them in a sane way. -Dave On 04/24/2015 12:34 AM, Sampsa Laine wrote:

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: ?U?ltrix was an odd child even when it was "current". Just check any contemporary software for all the comments about the special things needed for it to compile and work on Ultrix. ?Fair enough - as I said, it was a time where everyone was trying to protect their own turf. The Sun/AT&T deal sort of cemented that, which is why OSF/1 was so important. Clem? _______________________________________________ Hecnet-list mailing list Hecnet-list at lists.sonic.net https://lists.sonic.net/mailman/listinfo/hecnet-list

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 6:15 PM, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote: hy they put binaries in /etc, I always thought that was a config directory, now the name makes sense: /etc = random stuff goes here since we don't have /sbin yet :P ?/etc goes back to very early Unix (at least 5th edition). Ken put things that only an admin would need in there. At it was in the PATH of root typically. /sbin is >>static<< bin not systems bin and it's very late in Unix development (i.e. it came from the Summit guys in the mid 1980s, not research). It was created when unix started to support shared libraries it needed to split bin in the stuff needed before sharing and statically linked (typically systems stuff)? vs. stuff that could be shipped with a shared library. Difference between ed and ex/vi.

Shared libs came very late to UNIX. To give Summit (and Columbus) credit, it was definitely there by system V and I don't remember it in PWB 3.0 (aka System 3.0 when it got "branded" by Summit). PWB 4.0 never left the Bell System it may have had it but I've forgotten and I do not have an PWB 4.0 docs. By the time Summit picked up the other BTL changes you got the System V. Also /bin <-> /usr/bin split was left over from the RK05 (2.5Mbyte) disk and also very early in Unix - certainly was in Research 6th, and I've forgotten if it was in 5th.

So in the old days of Research (and later BSD) you had: /bin <-- mortal user programs that would exist before anything was mounted (ed, ls, kept to a minimum..) /etc <-- binaries and configuration files and script - used for booting, system maintenance and like (mount, umount, the password file ,,) /usr/bin <-- mortal programs but might not need until after running multi-user (init had only 2 states -- single user or multi-user) all the other programs from section 1 that were not in /bin

This allowed you to balance the space needed. /lib and /usr/lib has similar beginnings. /lib contain libc.a, the compiler itself, cpp front end and not much else. Everything was put in /usr/bin Funny, to this day I still in terms of /bin and /lib being very small and only limited in what is there. In fact, their was an early attempt at what we now called the union file system to try to bring directories like these be "visible" as a single directory in one the UNIX - again IIRC that the Columbus guys. Berkeley later added it in BSD 4.4 although it was buggy for a long time and really did not come into being until the VFS layer/file system switch comes about in the late 1980s.

On 2015-04-25 00:10, Clem Cole wrote: I actually should temper my statement a little. Ultrix certainly wasn't all bad. It was in many ways pretty well done. It just was pretty different from most other things, making it much harder to port software to. While it was (more or less) BSD 4.3, a bunch of libraries and functions were for some reason kept at the BSD 4.2 level. Typical of this was syslog, for instance. Compilers and tools as such were fine. Support for the hardware was good, and it had some features and functionality that you wish had existed on other Unix systems. But the fact that so many "standard" things (I know, standard and Unix weren't exactly synonyms, or even well defined back then) in Ultrix were different than most other systems and what most other software expected meant that getting any software running on Ultrix was usually a pain. So you started with replacing whole chunks of libraries and subsystems to something a bit more "modern" and compatible with other systems, just to make your life easier. I've run both Ultrix 4.4 and Ultrix 4.5 for several years. In fact, Updates VAX 8650 have Ultrix on one disk. Just need to type "boot" with the right arguments, and the machine is up and running. No DECnet, though. Sorry. :-( Johnny

While it was (more or less) BSD 4.3, a bunch of libraries and functions were for some reason kept at the BSD 4.2 level. Typical of this was syslog, for instance.

In cuneiform? Now *there* is a nice Unicode challenge... paul

;) On 04/23/2015 07:33 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote: -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ/3 New Kensington, PA