30 Jul
2020
30 Jul
'20
10:25 p.m.
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3 Aug
3 Aug
3:53 a.m.
VK2FVAX .. what's the email list equiv of an eyeball-qso?
You've got me wondering now.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf Of
Robert Armstrong
Sent: Friday, 31 July 2020 7:28 AM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
Regards, John
ZL4JY Waikanae
Welcome, John. Lots of hams here too - we should start a HECnet ham radio club :)
Bob WU6V
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31 Jul
31 Jul
11:57 a.m.
John, very cool to see you green on the map as well.
(http://akdesign.dyndns.org:8080/map in case someone might have missed it)
Johnny
On 2020-07-30 22:25, jy at xtra.co.nz wrote:
Hi All,
This morning I managed to hook up to HECnet after a great deal of
patient help from Bob Armstrong.
I thought I'd introduce myself to this community and also say thank you
all for what you have created.
My first experience with DEC goes back to the late seventies with paper
tape FOCAL on a PDP-11/20, later RT-11 and UCSD Pascal on a PDP-11/34
with an RL02.? While at university the undergraduate Computer Science
courses were based around Pascal running on the then new brand
VAX-11/780. And during my early career in government science everything
revolved around MicroVAXen. After entering private industry my first job
was at a company that had a 11/730 for accounting but WinNT server and
Win95/98 desktops were all the rage for office productivity.
The DEC stable here has a real MicroVAX 3800 (runs VMS 5.4-3), a core
memoried PDP-11/05, and a PDP-11/24. The two PDPs are restoration
projects.? I also have a small IBM hardware collection and have played
with the Hercules S/370 emulation project.
My connection to HECnet at the moment is with a emulated 3900 running
OpenVMS 7.3 using SIMH version 4 with using the Win32 pre-built binary
2020-06-09 and NPCAP 0.9995 on Windows 10.
I'm much more of a hardware design type person and have never been an
admin or indeed a very good programmer, apart perhaps from RCA 1802 and
MC6800 assembler.? I also have quite a bit of Cisco IOS experience and
have participated in networks like DN42 while maintaining various other
hobby (amateur radio) and work related networks.
Regards, John
ZL4JY Waikanae
NEW ZEALAND
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
1 Aug
1 Aug
5:08 a.m.
Thank you Jonny for your role in bringing this amazing network together!
On 31 July 2020 at 21:57 Johnny Billquist <bqt at
softjar.se> wrote:
John, very cool to see you green on the map as well.
(http://akdesign.dyndns.org:8080/map in case someone might have missed it)
Johnny
On 2020-07-30 22:25, jy at xtra.co.nz wrote:
Hi All,
This morning I managed to hook up to HECnet after a great deal of
patient help from Bob Armstrong.
I thought I'd introduce myself to this community and also say thank you
all for what you have created.
My first experience with DEC goes back to the late seventies with paper
tape FOCAL on a PDP-11/20, later RT-11 and UCSD Pascal on a PDP-11/34
with an RL02.? While at university the undergraduate Computer Science
courses were based around Pascal running on the then new brand
VAX-11/780. And during my early career in government science everything
revolved around MicroVAXen. After entering private industry my first job
was at a company that had a 11/730 for accounting but WinNT server and
Win95/98 desktops were all the rage for office productivity.
The DEC stable here has a real MicroVAX 3800 (runs VMS 5.4-3), a core
memoried PDP-11/05, and a PDP-11/24. The two PDPs are restoration
projects.? I also have a small IBM hardware collection and have played
with the Hercules S/370 emulation project.
My connection to HECnet at the moment is with a emulated 3900 running
OpenVMS 7.3 using SIMH version 4 with using the Win32 pre-built binary
2020-06-09 and NPCAP 0.9995 on Windows 10.
I'm much more of a hardware design type person and have never been an
admin or indeed a very good programmer, apart perhaps from RCA 1802 and
MC6800 assembler.? I also have quite a bit of Cisco IOS experience and
have participated in networks like DN42 while maintaining various other
hobby (amateur radio) and work related networks.
Regards, John
ZL4JY Waikanae
NEW ZEALAND
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol 
9:39 a.m.
On 7/31/20 5:57 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
John, very cool to see you green on the map as well.
(http://akdesign.dyndns.org:8080/map in case someone might have missed it)
Did we ever work out why I see no routes coming in or out of my
network on that map? I'm running a Cisco (7604 if you care) with GRE
bridges.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
10:48 a.m.
On 2020-08-01 09:39, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 7/31/20 5:57 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
At least part of the problem is that Cisco boxes don't talk NICE, which
is the protocol used to map out the network. As long as there is just
one Cisco box in the middle, it can sortof be inferred how it is
connected from its neighbors. But if you have two Cisco boxes connected,
and nothing else nearby, then it start becoming hard.
Maybe Paul have some ideas of what could be done here? It might be that
we just have to hardwire some connectivity information into Pauls
mapping code for such nodes...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
John, very cool to see you green on the map as
well.
(http://akdesign.dyndns.org:8080/map in case someone might have missed
it)
? Did we ever work out why I see no routes coming in or out of my
network on that map?? I'm running a Cisco (7604 if you care) with GRE
bridges. 
12:38 p.m.
I'm planning on re-writing the tunnel manager here shortly. Once I have I can provide
an API endpoint that gives you the Cisco GRE tunnel mappings. This only helps with people
who use the tunnel manager as it won't have visibility into manually created tunnels.
-brian
On Aug 1, 2020, 04:47 -0400, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se>, wrote:
On 2020-08-01 09:39, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 7/31/20 5:57 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
At least part of the problem is that Cisco boxes don't talk NICE, which
is the protocol used to map out the network. As long as there is just
one Cisco box in the middle, it can sortof be inferred how it is
connected from its neighbors. But if you have two Cisco boxes connected,
and nothing else nearby, then it start becoming hard.
Maybe Paul have some ideas of what could be done here? It might be that
we just have to hardwire some connectivity information into Pauls
mapping code for such nodes...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol John, very cool to see you green on the map as
well.
(http://akdesign.dyndns.org:8080/map in case someone might have missed
it)
? Did we ever work out why I see no routes coming in or out of my
network on that map?? I'm running a Cisco (7604 if you care) with GRE
bridges. 
3:58 p.m.
Brian - will it still use SNMP?
---
Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT
39.19151 N, 77.23432 W
QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet
On Aug 1, 2020, at 6:38 AM, Brian Hechinger <wonko
at 4amlunch.net> wrote:
I'm planning on re-writing the tunnel manager here shortly. Once I have I can provide
an API endpoint that gives you the Cisco GRE tunnel mappings. This only helps with people
who use the tunnel manager as it won't have visibility into manually created tunnels.
-brian
> On Aug 1, 2020, 04:47 -0400, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se>, wrote:
>> On 2020-08-01 09:39, Dave McGuire wrote:
>>> On 7/31/20 5:57 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> John, very cool to see you green on the map as well.
>>> (http://akdesign.dyndns.org:8080/map in case someone might have missed
>>> it)
>>
>> Did we ever work out why I see no routes coming in or out of my
>> network on that map? I'm running a Cisco (7604 if you care) with GRE
>> bridges.
>
> At least part of the problem is that Cisco boxes don't talk NICE, which
> is the protocol used to map out the network. As long as there is just
> one Cisco box in the middle, it can sortof be inferred how it is
> connected from its neighbors. But if you have two Cisco boxes connected,
> and nothing else nearby, then it start becoming hard.
>
> Maybe Paul have some ideas of what could be done here? It might be that
> we just have to hardwire some connectivity information into Pauls
> mapping code for such nodes...
>
> Johnny
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
> || on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
7:12 p.m.
On Aug 1, 2020, at 4:48 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt
at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2020-08-01 09:39, Dave McGuire wrote:
Manual connectivity info would be an option, but in a way that goes counter to what the
map is trying to be.
I tried SNMP. Unfortunately, my ISP filters that. If someone has an Internet host
capable of communicating with those Cisco boxes via SNMP, unfiltered, and is willing to be
a gateway, we could get around that issue.
paul
On 7/31/20 5:57 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
At least part of the problem is that Cisco boxes don't talk NICE, which is the
protocol used to map out the network. As long as there is just one Cisco box in the
middle, it can sortof be inferred how it is connected from its neighbors. But if you have
two Cisco boxes connected, and nothing else nearby, then it start becoming hard.
Maybe Paul have some ideas of what could be done here? It might be that we just have to
hardwire some connectivity information into Pauls mapping code for such nodes... John, very cool to see you green on the map as
well.
(http://akdesign.dyndns.org:8080/map in case someone might have missed it)
Did
we ever work out why I see no routes coming in or out of my network on that map? I'm
running a Cisco (7604 if you care) with GRE bridges.
7:27 p.m.
On August 1, 2020 1:14:58 PM Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
I'm willing to do that.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 2020-08-01
09:39, Dave McGuire wrote:
Manual connectivity info would be an option, but in a way that goes counter to what the
map is trying to be.
I tried SNMP. Unfortunately, my ISP filters that. If someone has an Internet host
capable of communicating with those Cisco boxes via SNMP, unfiltered, and is willing to be
a gateway, we could get around that issue. On 7/31/20 5:57 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
At least part of the problem is that Cisco boxes don't talk NICE, which is the
protocol used to map out the network. As long as there is just one Cisco box in the
middle, it can sortof be inferred how it is connected from its neighbors. But if you have
two Cisco boxes connected, and nothing else nearby, then it start becoming hard.
Maybe Paul have some ideas of what could be done here? It might be that we just have to
hardwire some connectivity information into Pauls mapping code for such nodes... John, very cool to see you green on the map as
well.
(http://akdesign.dyndns.org:8080/map in case someone might have missed it)
Did
we ever work out why I see no routes coming in or out of my network on that map? I'm
running a Cisco (7604 if you care) with GRE bridges.
11:53 p.m.
On the subject of Cisco (and hijacking my own thread) ...
While I joined the HECnet with a connection via Bob Armstrong using the MultiNet software,
I'm on the lookout for another connection using Cisco for some more machines.
I'm particularly interested in Cisco networking and I'd like to explore a DECnet
over GRE connection implementation.
This would also have the advantage of keeping routing through the always-on Cisco box and
avoid MultiNet which would not be an option for my PDP-11/24 restoration project.
Looking at Paul's wonder map for hardware Ciscos my options might be a connection
perhaps via Dave or Ian McLaughlin?
John ZL4JY
On 2/08/2020, at 05:27, Dave McGuire <mcguire at
neurotica.com> wrote:
?On August 1, 2020 1:14:58 PM Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
I'm willing to do that.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On
2020-08-01 09:39, Dave McGuire wrote:
>>> On 7/31/20 5:57 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>> John, very cool to see you green on the map as well.
>>>> (http://akdesign.dyndns.org:8080/map in case someone might have missed
it)
>>> Did we ever work out why I see no routes coming in or out of my network on
that map? I'm running a Cisco (7604 if you care) with GRE bridges.
> At least part of the problem is that Cisco boxes don't talk NICE, which is the
protocol used to map out the network. As long as there is just one Cisco box in the
middle, it can sortof be inferred how it is connected from its neighbors. But if you have
two Cisco boxes connected, and nothing else nearby, then it start becoming hard.
> Maybe Paul have some ideas of what could be done here? It might be that we just have
to hardwire some connectivity information into Pauls mapping code for such nodes...
Manual connectivity info would be an option, but in a way that goes counter to what the
map is trying to be.
I tried SNMP. Unfortunately, my ISP filters that. If someone has an Internet host
capable of communicating with those Cisco boxes via SNMP, unfiltered, and is willing to be
a gateway, we could get around that issue.
2 Aug
2 Aug
12:08 a.m.
On 8/1/20 5:53 PM, John Yaldwyn wrote:
On the subject of Cisco (and hijacking my own thread)
...
While I joined the HECnet with a connection via Bob Armstrong using the MultiNet
software, I'm on the lookout for another connection using Cisco for some more
machines.
I'm particularly interested in Cisco networking and I'd like to explore a DECnet
over GRE connection implementation.
This would also have the advantage of keeping routing through the always-on Cisco box and
avoid MultiNet which would not be an option for my PDP-11/24 restoration project.
Looking at Paul's wonder map for hardware Ciscos my options might be a connection
perhaps via Dave or Ian McLaughlin?
You can certainly have a tunnel to my network. Brian, can you get
John set up in the tunnel config generator?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
12:10 a.m.
On 8/1/20 5:53 PM, John Yaldwyn wrote:
On the subject of Cisco (and hijacking my own thread)
...
While I joined the HECnet with a connection via Bob Armstrong using the MultiNet
software, I'm on the lookout for another connection using Cisco for some more
machines.
I'm particularly interested in Cisco networking and I'd like to explore a DECnet
over GRE connection implementation.
This would also have the advantage of keeping routing through the always-on Cisco box and
avoid MultiNet which would not be an option for my PDP-11/24 restoration project.
Looking at Paul's wonder map for hardware Ciscos my options might be a connection
perhaps via Dave or Ian McLaughlin?
I hit "send" before my brain was fully engaged. We can set it up
manually if you're hot to do it before Brian can get to it; let me know.
It's nice to hear of another 11/24. Those are really nice machines;
I have one that was at LSSM for awhile and now it's here in my lab. I
have the CIS option in it, and I have an FPF-11 that I will add the next
time I have the machine open.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
12:56 a.m.
I have an 11/24 as well, but the PSU broke on it and I don't have the expertise to fix
this one as it is quite complex, despite all the schematics being available.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf
Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 01 August 2020 23:11
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/20 5:53 PM, John Yaldwyn wrote:
On the subject of Cisco (and hijacking my own
thread) ...
While I joined the HECnet with a connection via Bob Armstrong using the
MultiNet
software, I'm on the lookout for another connection using Cisco for
some more machines.
I'm particularly interested in Cisco networking and I'd like to explore a
DECnet over GRE connection implementation.
This would also have the advantage of keeping routing through the always-on
Cisco
box and avoid MultiNet which would not be an option for my PDP-11/24
restoration project.
Looking at Paul's wonder map for hardware Ciscos my options might be a
connection perhaps via Dave or Ian McLaughlin?
I hit "send" before my brain was fully engaged. We can set it up manually
if
you're hot to do it before Brian can get to it; let me know.
It's nice to hear of another 11/24. Those are really nice machines; I have one
that was at LSSM for awhile and now it's here in my lab. I have the CIS option
in it, and I have an FPF-11 that I will add the next time I have the machine open.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2 a.m.
On 8/1/20 6:56 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
I have an 11/24 as well, but the PSU broke on it and I
don't have the expertise to fix this one as it is quite complex, despite all the
schematics being available.
Is your 11/24 in the BA11-L (5.25") or BA11-A (10.5") chassis? If
the former, I've repaired a number of those power supplies and have had
very good luck with them. I'd be willing to take a crack at yours.
You'd have to ship it over here, though.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11:36 a.m.
It is the BA11-A, the power supply is the H7140 PSU. It is very heavy and extremely
complicated (for me anyway). The problem occurred on the Bias and Interface board, but
there could be problems elsewhere. When I first got it the machine ran but then just
powered down. There was a fault on the B&I board which I repaired, but I must have
done something wrong as then there was a bit of a bang. I have since repaired it further
but the timer on the B&I board never runs at the required frequency (if I remember
correctly).
I have sat on this for so long that I think my only hope is really to get someone more
knowledgeable than me to look at it. I should perhaps have another look before considering
shipping it across the pond, but if you really think you have the time and inclination, I
would certainly consider sending it to you.
Thanks
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf
Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 02 August 2020 01:01
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/20 6:56 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
I have an 11/24 as well, but the PSU broke on it
and I don't have the expertise
to fix this one as it is quite complex, despite
all the schematics being available.
Is your 11/24 in the BA11-L (5.25") or BA11-A (10.5") chassis? If the
former,
I've repaired a number of those power supplies and have had very good luck
with them. I'd be willing to take a crack at yours.
You'd have to ship it over here, though.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11:37 a.m.
Actually I just noticed you said you have repaired the BA11-L. From what I see that is the
H777 PSU. I have a broken one of those too, but I have never actually looked at it. I want
to have a go at that myself first, but any tips/information would be useful.
Thanks
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf
Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 02 August 2020 01:01
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/20 6:56 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
I have an 11/24 as well, but the PSU broke on it
and I don't have the expertise
to fix this one as it is quite complex, despite
all the schematics being available.
Is your 11/24 in the BA11-L (5.25") or BA11-A (10.5") chassis? If the
former,
I've repaired a number of those power supplies and have had very good luck
with them. I'd be willing to take a crack at yours.
You'd have to ship it over here, though.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
6:12 p.m.
At first, yes. From an operational perspective it won't change but the supporting back
end will change significantly. One of the big changes will be you won't need to open
SNMP to the internet as you will be able to run an "agent" locally on your
network.
Additional config methods could be added later if requested.
-brian
On Aug 2, 2020, 05:37 -0400, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>, wrote:
Actually I just noticed you said you have repaired the
BA11-L. From what I see that is the H777 PSU. I have a broken one of those too, but I have
never actually looked at it. I want to have a go at that myself first, but any
tips/information would be useful.
Thanks
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf
Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 02 August 2020 01:01
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/20 6:56 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
I have an 11/24 as well, but the PSU broke on it
and I don't have the expertise
to fix this one as it is quite complex, despite
all the schematics being available.
Is your 11/24 in the BA11-L (5.25") or BA11-A (10.5") chassis? If the former,
I've repaired a number of those power supplies and have had very good luck
with them. I'd be willing to take a crack at yours.
You'd have to ship it over here, though.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
8:51 p.m.
Yes, the H777, not the H7140. I've repaired about six of them now.
In each case the problem was electrolytic capacitors. The row of
four 180uF capacitors on the +20V regulator board have been the most
problematic.
-Dave
On 8/2/20 5:37 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Actually I just noticed you said you have repaired the
BA11-L. From what I see that is the H777 PSU. I have a broken one of those too, but I have
never actually looked at it. I want to have a go at that myself first, but any
tips/information would be useful.
Thanks
Rob
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf
Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 02 August 2020 01:01
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/20 6:56 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
I have an 11/24 as well, but the PSU broke on it
and I don't have the expertise
to fix this one as it is quite complex, despite
all the schematics being available.
Is your 11/24 in the BA11-L (5.25") or BA11-A (10.5") chassis? If the
former,
I've repaired a number of those power supplies and have had very good luck
with them. I'd be willing to take a crack at yours.
You'd have to ship it over here, though.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA 
1:34 a.m.
Hi John,
you have addresses allocated in Bob's area 2.XXX which means you can only have a
connection across to Bob. if you want to run multiple connections to multiple other area
routers, you would need to be running your own area.
if you are in a situation where the machine running your multinet connection may be
up/down and this affects your connectivity then my recommendation would be to setup a
machine running pyDECnet.
if you have bigger plans to run as a hub for NZ and may have other people interested in
hooking up to you then I would speak to Johnny and see if he is able to allocate you an
area. you could then establish multiple GRE tunnels via your Cisco router, or setup a
dedicated pyDECnet machine which then gives you the flexibility to run both GRE and
Multinet both upstream and downstream.
cheers, Wiz!!
________________________________
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> on behalf of Dave
McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
Sent: Sunday, 2 August 2020 8:10:41 AM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/20 5:53 PM, John Yaldwyn wrote:
On the subject of Cisco (and hijacking my own thread)
...
While I joined the HECnet with a connection via Bob Armstrong using the MultiNet
software, I'm on the lookout for another connection using Cisco for some more
machines.
I'm particularly interested in Cisco networking and I'd like to explore a DECnet
over GRE connection implementation.
This would also have the advantage of keeping routing through the always-on Cisco box and
avoid MultiNet which would not be an option for my PDP-11/24 restoration project.
Looking at Paul's wonder map for hardware Ciscos my options might be a connection
perhaps via Dave or Ian McLaughlin?
I hit "send" before my brain was fully engaged. We can set it up
manually if you're hot to do it before Brian can get to it; let me know.
It's nice to hear of another 11/24. Those are really nice machines;
I have one that was at LSSM for awhile and now it's here in my lab. I
have the CIS option in it, and I have an FPF-11 that I will add the next
time I have the machine open.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1:40 a.m.
if you are in a situation where the machine running
your multinet
connection
may be up/down and this affects your connectivity then
my recommendation
would be to setup a machine running pyDECnet.
John's biggest problem is that he doesn't have a DVNETRTG license; he only
has an end node. That means the machine running Multinet can't also talk
over the Ethernet to his other machines at the same time. pyDECnet would
also solve the problem, but he's running Windows and doesn't have any Linux
machines.
Bob
2:07 a.m.
Bob's right. The machine with MultiNet doesn't have an appropriate routing license
but I'm actively looking at another old VAX to see what might be recovered.
By the way I've had no response to my OpenVMS Hobbyist license requests sent some two
weeks ago. I used a couple of different email addresses in case one was somehow blocked.
While I received an automated response in each case, nothing has happened since.
Bob, while I do run two Centos servers to support the New Zealand DMR MARC and IPSC2 DMR+
international ham DMR repeater networks, my Linux knowledge is pretty rudimentary! These
are real servers in server room at my work as that was an easier thing to manage (for me
at least) than something virtualised.
Given my work with Cisco on pretty much a daily basis it has become my platform of choice
for routing and switching tasks and I'm impressed that IOS supports DECnet.
Other options are possible but with routers already installed and running, expanding the
config to add HECnet avoids more hardware.
Cheers, John
On 2/08/2020,
at 11:40, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
?
if you are in a situation where the machine
running your multinet connection
may be up/down and this affects your connectivity then my recommendation
would be to setup a machine running pyDECnet.
John?s biggest problem is that he doesn?t have a DVNETRTG license; he only has an end
node. That means the machine running Multinet can?t also talk over the Ethernet to his
other machines at the same time. pyDECnet would also solve the problem, but he?s running
Windows and doesn?t have any Linux machines.
Bob
2:15 a.m.
Hi John,
i had a discussion with the OpenVMS hobbyist team in reference to the "final
licensing" which they started handing out in March of this year specifically in
reference to this. this was their final round of licensing, and while they wanted
hobbyists to apply directly (for statistical reporting) they did agree that it was ok to
forward the licensing directly across to other individual hobbyists.
the final license is not unique to each person - it's the same license file for
everyone.
John - in a separate message i'll forward the licensing across to you.
cheers, Wiz!!
________________________________
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> on behalf of John
Yaldwyn <jy at xtra.co.nz>
Sent: Sunday, 2 August 2020 10:07:38 AM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
Bob's right. The machine with MultiNet doesn't have an appropriate routing license
but I'm actively looking at another old VAX to see what might be recovered.
By the way I've had no response to my OpenVMS Hobbyist license requests sent some two
weeks ago. I used a couple of different email addresses in case one was somehow blocked.
While I received an automated response in each case, nothing has happened since.
Bob, while I do run two Centos servers to support the New Zealand DMR MARC and IPSC2 DMR+
international ham DMR repeater networks, my Linux knowledge is pretty rudimentary! These
are real servers in server room at my work as that was an easier thing to manage (for me
at least) than something virtualised.
Given my work with Cisco on pretty much a daily basis it has become my platform of choice
for routing and switching tasks and I'm impressed that IOS supports DECnet.
Other options are possible but with routers already installed and running, expanding the
config to add HECnet avoids more hardware.
Cheers, John
On 2/08/2020, at 11:40, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
?
if you are in a situation where the machine running
your multinet connection
may be up/down and this affects your connectivity then
my recommendation
would be to setup a machine running pyDECnet.
John?s biggest problem is that he doesn?t have a DVNETRTG license; he only has an end
node. That means the machine running Multinet can?t also talk over the Ethernet to his
other machines at the same time. pyDECnet would also solve the problem, but he?s running
Windows and doesn?t have any Linux machines.
Bob
2:16 a.m.
On 8/1/20 8:15 PM, David Moylan wrote:
i had a discussion with the OpenVMS hobbyist team in
reference to the
"final licensing" which they started handing out in March of this year
specifically in reference to this. this was their final round of
licensing, and while they wanted hobbyists to apply directly (for
statistical reporting) they did agree that it was ok to forward the
licensing directly across to other individual hobbyists.
the final license is not unique to each person - it's the same license
file for everyone.
John - in a separate message i'll forward the licensing across to you.
May I ask that you forward a copy to me as well, if it's not too much
trouble? Thank you.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:29 a.m.
Any chance I could get a copy too? Is this still a time limited license or are they
opening up the final ones? I have Pakgen but I prefer to be ?official?.
Thanks
Ian
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 1, 2020, at 5:16 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire
at neurotica.com> wrote:
?On 8/1/20 8:15 PM, David Moylan wrote:
i had a discussion with the OpenVMS hobbyist team
in reference to the "final licensing" which they started handing out in March of
this year specifically in reference to this. this was their final round of licensing, and
while they wanted hobbyists to apply directly (for statistical reporting) they did agree
that it was ok to forward the licensing directly across to other individual hobbyists.
the final license is not unique to each person - it's the same license file for
everyone.
John - in a separate message i'll forward the licensing across to you.
May I ask that you forward a copy to me as well, if it's not too much trouble?
Thank you.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:36 a.m.
done.
yes - it still has an expiry on it - 01-JAN-2022. there was discussion about no expiry on
the final licensing, but the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist program didn't want to do this
because the business division was sold across to VSI and they didn't want it to affect
future sales of OpenVMS.
note that VSI didn't take over anything in relation to VAX.
cheers, Wiz!!
________________________________
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> on behalf of Ian
McLaughlin <ian at platinum.net>
Sent: Sunday, 2 August 2020 10:29:16 AM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
Any chance I could get a copy too? Is this still a time limited license or are they
opening up the final ones? I have Pakgen but I prefer to be ?official?.
Thanks
Ian
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 1, 2020, at 5:16 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire
at neurotica.com> wrote:
?On 8/1/20 8:15 PM, David Moylan wrote:
i had a discussion with the OpenVMS hobbyist team
in reference to the "final licensing" which they started handing out in March of
this year specifically in reference to this. this was their final round of licensing, and
while they wanted hobbyists to apply directly (for statistical reporting) they did agree
that it was ok to forward the licensing directly across to other individual hobbyists.
the final license is not unique to each person - it's the same license file for
everyone.
John - in a separate message i'll forward the licensing across to you.
May I ask that you forward a copy to me as well, if it's not too much trouble?
Thank you.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:18 a.m.
On 8/1/20 8:15 PM, David Moylan wrote:
i had a discussion with the OpenVMS hobbyist team in
reference to the
"final licensing" which they started handing out in March of this year
specifically in reference to this. this was their final round of
licensing, and while they wanted hobbyists to apply directly (for
statistical reporting) they did agree that it was ok to forward the
licensing directly across to other individual hobbyists.
the final license is not unique to each person - it's the same license
file for everyone.
John - in a separate message i'll forward the licensing across to you.
Oh, and does that include DVNETRTG?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:21 a.m.
licensing forwarded to John and Dave.
and yes Dave - the license does include DVNETRTG
cheers, Wiz!!
________________________________
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> on behalf of Dave
McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
Sent: Sunday, 2 August 2020 10:18:04 AM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/20 8:15 PM, David Moylan wrote:
i had a discussion with the OpenVMS hobbyist team in
reference to the
"final licensing" which they started handing out in March of this year
specifically in reference to this. this was their final round of
licensing, and while they wanted hobbyists to apply directly (for
statistical reporting) they did agree that it was ok to forward the
licensing directly across to other individual hobbyists.
the final license is not unique to each person - it's the same license
file for everyone.
John - in a separate message i'll forward the licensing across to you.
Oh, and does that include DVNETRTG?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:58 a.m.
Thank you.
On 2/08/2020, at 12:21, David Moylan <djm at
wiz.net.au> wrote:
?
licensing forwarded to John and Dave.
and yes Dave - the license does include DVNETRTG
cheers, Wiz!!
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> on behalf of Dave
McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
Sent: Sunday, 2 August 2020 10:18:04 AM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/20 8:15 PM, David Moylan wrote:
i had a discussion with the OpenVMS hobbyist team
in reference to the
"final licensing" which they started handing out in March of this year
specifically in reference to this. this was their final round of
licensing, and while they wanted hobbyists to apply directly (for
statistical reporting) they did agree that it was ok to forward the
licensing directly across to other individual hobbyists.
the final license is not unique to each person - it's the same license
file for everyone.
John - in a separate message i'll forward the licensing across to you.
Oh, and does that include DVNETRTG?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA 
10:57 a.m.
Hi
Just lurking at the moment until I get my own connection to HECNet
sorted out - but could I be a pest and ask for a copy of that final
license key as well. Like others, I've had the automated HP response and
hee-haw beyond that.
Many thanks
Mark
On 02/08/2020 01:21, David Moylan wrote:
licensing forwarded to John and Dave.
and yes Dave - the license does include DVNETRTG
cheers, Wiz!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> on
behalf of Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 August 2020 10:18:04 AM
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Subject:* Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/20 8:15 PM, David Moylan wrote:
i had a discussion with the OpenVMS hobbyist team
in reference to the
"final licensing" which they started handing out in March of this year
specifically in reference to this. this was their final round of
licensing, and while they wanted hobbyists to apply directly (for
statistical reporting) they did agree that it was ok to forward the
licensing directly across to other individual hobbyists.
the final license is not unique to each person - it's the same license
file for everyone.
John - in a separate message i'll forward the licensing across to you.
?? Oh, and does that include DVNETRTG?
????????????? -Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA 
11:15 a.m.
I wonder if the demise is due to Covid in India
Copy sent
Dave
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf Of
Mark
Sent: 02 August 2020 09:58
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
Hi
Just lurking at the moment until I get my own connection to HECNet sorted
out - but could I be a pest and ask for a copy of that final license key as
well. Like others, I've had the automated HP response and hee-haw beyond
that.
Many thanks
Mark
On 02/08/2020 01:21, David Moylan wrote:
licensing forwarded to John and Dave.
and yes Dave - the license does include DVNETRTG
cheers, Wiz!!
_____
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
<mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> on behalf
of
Dave McGuire <mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com> <mcguire at neurotica.com>
Sent: Sunday, 2 August 2020 10:18:04 AM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/20 8:15 PM, David Moylan wrote:
i had a discussion with the OpenVMS hobbyist team in
reference to the
"final licensing" which they started handing out in March of this year
specifically in reference to this. this was their final round of
licensing, and while they wanted hobbyists to apply directly (for
statistical reporting) they did agree that it was ok to forward the
licensing directly across to other individual hobbyists.
the final license is not unique to each person - it's the same license
file for everyone.
John - in a separate message i'll forward the licensing across to you.
Oh, and does that include DVNETRTG?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
6:17 a.m.
On 8/1/2020 7:15 PM, David Moylan wrote:
Hi John,
i had a discussion with the OpenVMS hobbyist team in reference to the "final
licensing" which they started handing out in March of this year specifically in
reference to this. this was their final round of licensing, and while they wanted
hobbyists to apply directly (for statistical reporting) they did agree that it was ok to
forward the licensing directly across to other individual hobbyists.
May I ask what address you wrote to and got a response?? I sent a message to
"OpenVMS Customer Lab" <openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com> on June 29th and
have gotten no response from them.
the final license is not unique to each person - it's the same license file for
everyone.
I had a suspicion about that since all my previous license PAKs had my DECUserver
member number embedded.
John - in a separate message i'll forward the licensing across to you.
cheers, Wiz!!
--
John H. Reinhardt
6:55 a.m.
openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com
this is the same contact e-mail address i've used for the past few years, however i
don't know if anyone is currently monitoring this mailbox.
cheers, Wiz!!
________________________________
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> on behalf of John
H. Reinhardt <johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org>
Sent: Sunday, 2 August 2020 2:17:14 PM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/2020 7:15 PM, David Moylan wrote:
Hi John,
i had a discussion with the OpenVMS hobbyist team in reference to the "final
licensing" which they started handing out in March of this year specifically in
reference to this. this was their final round of licensing, and while they wanted
hobbyists to apply directly (for statistical reporting) they did agree that it was ok to
forward the licensing directly across to other individual hobbyists.
May I ask what address you wrote to and got a response? I sent a message to
"OpenVMS Customer Lab" <openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com> on June 29th and
have gotten no response from them.
the final license is not unique to each person - it's the same license file for
everyone.
I had a suspicion about that since all my previous license PAKs had my DECUserver
member number embedded.
John - in a separate message i'll forward the licensing across to you.
cheers, Wiz!!
--
John H. Reinhardt
6:57 a.m.
Apparently they aren't any more.? Thanks for your reply!
--
John H. Reinhardt
On 8/1/2020 11:55 PM, David Moylan wrote:
openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com
this is the same contact e-mail address i've used for the past few years, however i
don't know if anyone is currently monitoring this mailbox.
cheers, Wiz!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> on behalf of
John H. Reinhardt <johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 August 2020 2:17:14 PM
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Subject:* Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/2020 7:15 PM, David Moylan wrote:
Hi John,
i had a discussion with the OpenVMS hobbyist team in reference to the "final
licensing" which they started handing out in March of this year specifically in
reference to this. this was their final round of licensing, and while they wanted
hobbyists to apply directly (for statistical reporting) they did agree that it was ok to
forward the licensing directly across to other individual hobbyists.
May I ask what address you wrote to and got a response?? I sent a message to
"OpenVMS Customer Lab" <openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com> on June 29th and
have gotten no response from them.
the final license is not unique to each person - it's the same license file for
everyone.
I had a suspicion about that since all my previous license PAKs had my DECUserver
member number embedded.
John - in a separate message i'll forward the licensing across to you.
cheers, Wiz!!
--
John H. Reinhardt
2:20 a.m.
On 8/1/20 8:07 PM, John Yaldwyn wrote:
Given my work with Cisco on pretty much a daily basis
it has become my
platform of choice for routing and switching tasks and I'm impressed
that IOS supports DECnet.
It has been that way from day one, IIRC. The founders of Cisco were
very DEC-centric people, from the PDP-10 crowd.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11:21 a.m.
My user mode router runs on Windows.
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf Of
Robert Armstrong
Sent: 02 August 2020 00:41
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
if you are in a situation where the machine running
your multinet
connection
may be up/down and this affects your connectivity then
my recommendation
would be to setup a machine running pyDECnet.
John's biggest problem is that he doesn't have a DVNETRTG license; he only
has an end node. That means the machine running Multinet can't also talk
over the Ethernet to his other machines at the same time. pyDECnet would
also solve the problem, but he's running Windows and doesn't have any Linux
machines.
Bob
9:05 p.m.
On Aug 1, 2020, at 7:40 PM, Robert Armstrong <bob
at jfcl.com> wrote:
I haven't tried to run pyDECnet on Windows (I try to avoid that OS). But since
Windows is portable it ought to work. The one issue is how to do Ethernet, if you want
real Ethernet. There are several flavors. The one I usually use is pcap, which I think
exists in Windows as well. Perhaps not quite compatible, but that should be fixable.
Perhaps I should give this a try.
If you want to use IP based stuff, like GRE or Multinet or DDCMP, I would expect it should
just work.
paul
if you are in a situation where the machine
running your multinet connection
may be up/down and this affects your connectivity then my recommendation
would be to setup a machine running pyDECnet.
John?s biggest problem is that he doesn?t have a DVNETRTG license; he only has an end
node. That means the machine running Multinet can?t also talk over the Ethernet to his
other machines at the same time. pyDECnet would also solve the problem, but he?s running
Windows and doesn?t have any Linux machines.
1:57 a.m.
Hi.
On 2020-08-02 01:34, David Moylan wrote:
Hi John,
you have addresses allocated in Bob's area 2.XXX which means you can
only have a connection across to Bob. if you want to run multiple
connections to multiple other area routers, you would need to be running
your own area.
Technically, that is not correct. All he needs to have is an area router.
However, that do have the risk that if Bob and John lost connection to
each other (but both still online), then area 2 would become split. A
known thing that can happen in DECnet, and which is not so good. (Until
such a split is healed, parts of that area might be unreachable, even
though you might think it should all work.)
Obviously not something Bob would like to happen, and for that reason
it's not really something acceptable.
But from a basic technical point of view, you can have any number of
area routers in an area, and they can all connect to different parts of
the rest of the DECnet network.
if you are in a situation where the machine running
your multinet
connection may be up/down and this affects your connectivity then my
recommendation would be to setup a machine running pyDECnet.
PyDECnet is a great tool here, yes.
if you have bigger plans to run as a hub for NZ and
may have other
people interested in hooking up to you then I would speak to Johnny and
see if he is able to allocate you an area. you could then establish
multiple GRE tunnels via your Cisco router, or setup a dedicated
pyDECnet machine which then gives you the flexibility to run both GRE
and Multinet both upstream and downstream.
We can certainly allocate an area for NZ.
Johnny
cheers, Wiz!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> on behalf
of Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, 2 August 2020 8:10:41 AM
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Subject:* Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/20 5:53 PM, John Yaldwyn wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On the subject of Cisco (and hijacking my own
thread) ...
While I joined the HECnet with a connection via Bob Armstrong using the MultiNet
software, I'm on the lookout for another connection using Cisco for some more
machines.
I'm particularly interested in Cisco networking and I'd like to explore a DECnet
over GRE connection implementation.
This would also have the advantage of keeping routing through the always-on Cisco box and
avoid MultiNet which would not be an option for my PDP-11/24 restoration project.
Looking at Paul's wonder map for hardware Ciscos my options might be a connection
perhaps via Dave or Ian McLaughlin?
?? I hit "send" before my brain was fully engaged.? We can set it up
manually if you're hot to do it before Brian can get to it; let me know.
?? It's nice to hear of another 11/24.? Those are really nice machines;
I have one that was at LSSM for awhile and now it's here in my lab.? I
have the CIS option in it, and I have an FPF-11 that I will add the next
time I have the machine open.
???????????? -Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:15 a.m.
Thanks for the suggestions Wiz and yes I'd be happy to route connections for others in
NZ. So far I am only aware of one other DEC enthusiast that might be interested but
I've not talked about HECnet to others yet.
I'm very happy with the connection to Bob, it's working well and the host machine
is comfortably housed in my work server room. While it is an end node only, I can VPN to
that machine from anywhere (via Cisco of course) for console access.
The number of free HECnet areas looks a bit limited and I don't want to request a
whole area for the limited interest here so far. We'll have to see how things go
though.
John
On 2/08/2020, at 11:35, David Moylan <djm at
wiz.net.au> wrote:
?
Hi John,
you have addresses allocated in Bob's area 2.XXX which means you can only have a
connection across to Bob. if you want to run multiple connections to multiple other area
routers, you would need to be running your own area.
if you are in a situation where the machine running your multinet connection may be
up/down and this affects your connectivity then my recommendation would be to setup a
machine running pyDECnet.
if you have bigger plans to run as a hub for NZ and may have other people interested in
hooking up to you then I would speak to Johnny and see if he is able to allocate you an
area. you could then establish multiple GRE tunnels via your Cisco router, or setup a
dedicated pyDECnet machine which then gives you the flexibility to run both GRE and
Multinet both upstream and downstream.
cheers, Wiz!!
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> on behalf of Dave
McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
Sent: Sunday, 2 August 2020 8:10:41 AM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Hello from New Zealand
On 8/1/20 5:53 PM, John Yaldwyn wrote:
On the subject of Cisco (and hijacking my own
thread) ...
While I joined the HECnet with a connection via Bob Armstrong using the MultiNet
software, I'm on the lookout for another connection using Cisco for some more
machines.
I'm particularly interested in Cisco networking and I'd like to explore a DECnet
over GRE connection implementation.
This would also have the advantage of keeping routing through the always-on Cisco box and
avoid MultiNet which would not be an option for my PDP-11/24 restoration project.
Looking at Paul's wonder map for hardware Ciscos my options might be a connection
perhaps via Dave or Ian McLaughlin?
I hit "send" before my brain was fully engaged. We can set it up
manually if you're hot to do it before Brian can get to it; let me know.
It's nice to hear of another 11/24. Those are really nice machines;
I have one that was at LSSM for awhile and now it's here in my lab. I
have the CIS option in it, and I have an FPF-11 that I will add the next
time I have the machine open.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1372
days inactive
1376
days old
41 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
Alastair.Boyanich＠au.fujitsu.com -
bob＠jfcl.com -
bqt＠softjar.se -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
djm＠wiz.net.au -
ian＠platinum.net -
johnhreinhardt＠thereinhardts.org -
jy＠xtra.co.nz -
mark.curtis＠aardvarks-and-platypus.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com -
supratim＠riseup.net -
wonko＠4amlunch.net