SIMH TOPS-20 question --> recipe for handling Tops20 install tapes --> MTBOOT --> create new PS: structure
25 Dec
2021
25 Dec
'21
11:42 p.m.
Actually, come to think about it you should be able to create a new PS in 2
phases:
1. boot tape and create a pristine PS: up to and including DLUSER
stuff; see installation manual posted earlier.
2. boot another monitor, mount the pristine PS as another structure on
it; skip the tape 7 files and use monitor dumper to restore the savesets on
the pristine structure.
Point to check is if a bootstrap is written to the pristine structure but
the installation manual will make that clear.
If I have some time I will checkthe problem out if the tape has a problem or
not and how to create a structure from it; meanwhile you still cann retrieve
files which was your primary requirement I believe.
Reindert
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning at comcast.net]
Sent: Saturday, 25 December, 2021 22:24
To: Reindert Voorhorst <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com>
Cc: <hecnet at update.uu.se> <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: [HECnet] SIMH TOPS-20 question --> recipe for handling Tops20
install tapes --> MTBOOT
On Dec 25, 2021, at 3:21 PM, R. Voorhorst
<R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com>
wrote:
I do not see that problem and I posted it here somewhat earlier:
Swbx04> att -f tu0 simh
Swbx04> g:\temp\bb-d867e-bm_tops20_v41_2020_instl.tap-1
Swbx04> b tu0
And on console:
MTBOOT>
The first must be MTBOOT else you cannot load de monitor with /L and
?G143, so no
skipping filemarks are needed as the monitor is the first file.
Mark well, it is format simh=tps!
So it is, interesting.
What's strange is that -f tpc reports success, while -f simh reports an
error:
After processing 1159680 bytes of tape data (453 records, 5 tapemarks) Read
Tape Record Returned Unexpected Status: invalid record length
19827814 bytes of unexamined data remain in the tape image file
but indeed in this format I can boot the tape.
paul
26 Dec
26 Dec
2:43 p.m.
It turned out the tape image I was using is in fact defective; it ran into trouble at the
DLUSER step. I retried with the image you mentioned, found on trailing-edge, and that
worked. I now have a newly installed 4.1 system. Neat.
paul
On Dec 25, 2021, at 5:42 PM, R. Voorhorst
<R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com> wrote:
Actually, come to think about it you should be able to create a new PS in 2
phases:
1. boot tape and create a pristine PS: up to and including DLUSER
stuff; see installation manual posted earlier.
2. boot another monitor, mount the pristine PS as another structure on
it; skip the tape 7 files and use monitor dumper to restore the savesets on
the pristine structure.
Point to check is if a bootstrap is written to the pristine structure but
the installation manual will make that clear.
If I have some time I will checkthe problem out if the tape has a problem or
not and how to create a structure from it; meanwhile you still cann retrieve
files which was your primary requirement I believe.
Reindert
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning at comcast.net]
Sent: Saturday, 25 December, 2021 22:24
To: Reindert Voorhorst <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com>
Cc: <hecnet at update.uu.se> <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: [HECnet] SIMH TOPS-20 question --> recipe for handling Tops20
install tapes --> MTBOOT
On Dec 25, 2021, at 3:21 PM, R. Voorhorst
<R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com>
wrote:
I do not see that problem and I posted it here somewhat earlier:
Swbx04> att -f tu0 simh
Swbx04> g:\temp\bb-d867e-bm_tops20_v41_2020_instl.tap-1
Swbx04> b tu0
And on console:
MTBOOT>
The first must be MTBOOT else you cannot load de monitor with /L and
?G143, so no
skipping filemarks are needed as the monitor is the first file.
Mark well, it is format simh=tps!
So it is, interesting.
What's strange is that -f tpc reports success, while -f simh reports an
error:
After processing 1159680 bytes of tape data (453 records, 5 tapemarks) Read
Tape Record Returned Unexpected Status: invalid record length
19827814 bytes of unexamined data remain in the tape image file
but indeed in this format I can boot the tape.
paul
8:10 p.m.
That is very interesting.? What image did you finally wind up using,
actually?
I have downloaded images that also seemed to have erroneous data; I
believe I reached out to you about the gap in NCU/NCP that I encountered.
I believe you will also need to load this tape, which has 2020
utilities: DECNET-20_V2.1_2020_7-20-82.? However, this that has the
defective NCU/NCP source.? However, the extracted HTML appears to be
fine, which is odd...
On 12/26/21 8:43 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
It turned out the tape image I was using is in fact
defective; it ran into trouble at the DLUSER step. I retried with the image you
mentioned, found on trailing-edge, and that worked. I now have a newly installed 4.1
system. Neat.
paul
> On Dec 25, 2021, at 5:42 PM, R. Voorhorst <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com>
wrote:
>
> Actually, come to think about it you should be able to create a new PS in 2
> phases:
>
> 1. boot tape and create a pristine PS: up to and including DLUSER
> stuff; see installation manual posted earlier.
> 2. boot another monitor, mount the pristine PS as another structure on
> it; skip the tape 7 files and use monitor dumper to restore the savesets on
> the pristine structure.
>
> Point to check is if a bootstrap is written to the pristine structure but
> the installation manual will make that clear.
> If I have some time I will checkthe problem out if the tape has a problem or
> not and how to create a structure from it; meanwhile you still cann retrieve
> files which was your primary requirement I believe.
>
> Reindert
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning at comcast.net]
> Sent: Saturday, 25 December, 2021 22:24
> To: Reindert Voorhorst <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com>
> Cc: <hecnet at update.uu.se> <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
> Subject: Re: [HECnet] SIMH TOPS-20 question --> recipe for handling Tops20
> install tapes --> MTBOOT
>
>
>
>> On Dec 25, 2021, at 3:21 PM, R. Voorhorst <R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com>
> wrote:
>> I do not see that problem and I posted it here somewhat earlier:
>>
>> Swbx04> att -f tu0 simh
>> Swbx04> g:\temp\bb-d867e-bm_tops20_v41_2020_instl.tap-1
>> Swbx04> b tu0
>>
>> And on console:
>>
>> MTBOOT>
>>
>> The first must be MTBOOT else you cannot load de monitor with /L and
> ?G143, so no skipping filemarks are needed as the monitor is the first file.
>> Mark well, it is format simh=tps!
> So it is, interesting.
>
> What's strange is that -f tpc reports success, while -f simh reports an
> error:
>
> After processing 1159680 bytes of tape data (453 records, 5 tapemarks) Read
> Tape Record Returned Unexpected Status: invalid record length
> 19827814 bytes of unexamined data remain in the tape image file
>
> but indeed in this format I can boot the tape.
>
> paul
>
>
28 Dec
28 Dec
9:02 p.m.
On Dec 26, 2021, at 2:10 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
That is very interesting. What image did you finally wind up using, actually?
This one: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/tapes/bb-d867e-bm_tops20_v41_2020_instl.tap…
The bad one is this one:
http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/TOPS-20/BB-D86…
I have downloaded images that also seemed to have
erroneous data; I believe I reached out to you about the gap in NCU/NCP that I
encountered.
I believe you will also need to load this tape, which has 2020 utilities:
DECNET-20_V2.1_2020_7-20-82. However, this that has the defective NCU/NCP source.
However, the extracted HTML appears to be fine, which is odd...
Now that I have the basic TOPS-20 V4.1, I'm trying to find out how to add DECnet.
There are several tapes out there that claim to be DECnet V2.0 or V2.1. But I have no
idea what to do with them.
The DECnet-20 V2 manual has an installation chapter (chapter 10) but it starts with having
the relevant files on disk, and offers no insight on how to get them from tape. I tried
each of the various tape images, some seem to be SIMH and some TPC format, but none of
them are anything that DUMPER understands. I thought that DUMPER is normally how one gets
installation files off tape. (DIR MTA0: doesn't show anything either.)
Any pointers? Manuals?
paul
11:11 p.m.
dir mta0: would only work for either a Tops-20 or ANSI labeled tape with
volume recognition on.? You're not doing that by assigning the tape
drive directly.
But they're probably not labeled; I don't recall that DEC shipped this way.
If you let me know what tapes you're looking at, I can have a look and
give you some pointers or tips.
Basically, you're going to need to make a minor change in the
SYSTEM:CONFIG.CMD file and add a stanza for DECnet.? The config file is
monitor ver specific, so it would look something like SYSTEM:4-1-CONFIG.CMD.
Everything else would go into the SYSTEM:CMD file which is what is
(usually) parsed by OPR.? This would have the NCP commands which Orion
would be sent to the NICE process. DECNET-20_V2.1_2020_7-20-82 has the
necessary executables, as I recall.
Version for DECnet Phase II may predate an integration with Orion, but I
don't think so.
On 12/28/21 3:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Dec 26, 2021, at 2:10 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
That is very interesting. What image did you finally wind up using, actually?
This one: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/tapes/bb-d867e-bm_tops20_v41_2020_instl.tap…
The bad one is this one:
http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/TOPS-20/BB-D86…
I have downloaded images that also seemed to have
erroneous data; I believe I reached out to you about the gap in NCU/NCP that I
encountered.
I believe you will also need to load this tape, which has 2020 utilities:
DECNET-20_V2.1_2020_7-20-82. However, this that has the defective NCU/NCP source.
However, the extracted HTML appears to be fine, which is odd...
Now that I have the
basic TOPS-20 V4.1, I'm trying to find out how to add DECnet. There are several tapes
out there that claim to be DECnet V2.0 or V2.1. But I have no idea what to do with them.
The DECnet-20 V2 manual has an installation chapter (chapter 10) but it starts with
having the relevant files on disk, and offers no insight on how to get them from tape. I
tried each of the various tape images, some seem to be SIMH and some TPC format, but none
of them are anything that DUMPER understands. I thought that DUMPER is normally how one
gets installation files off tape. (DIR MTA0: doesn't show anything either.)
Any pointers? Manuals?
paul
29 Dec
29 Dec
1:34 a.m.
On Dec 28, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
dir mta0: would only work for either a Tops-20 or ANSI labeled tape with volume
recognition on. You're not doing that by assigning the tape drive directly.
But they're probably not labeled; I don't recall that DEC shipped this way.
If you let me know what tapes you're looking at, I can have a look and give you some
pointers or tips.
BB-H240B-BM.tap.gz
<http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/TOPS-20/BB-H240B-BM.tap.gz>
is one, BB-H241B-BM.tap.gz
<http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/TOPS-20/BB-H241B-BM.tap.gz>
the other. I'm not sure which is right. The description file (labels_combined.txt
<http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/labels_combined.txt>)
has them listed as:
BB-H240B-BM DECNET-20 V2 DIST TAPE 1980 _tops-20
BB-H241B-BM DECNET-20 2020 V2 DISTRIBUTION 1980 _tops-20
paul
30 Dec
30 Dec
2:58 a.m.
I downloaded both images, but am only looking at BB-H240B-BM at the moment.
This appears to be a KL distribution as it has a rather sizeable
directory for building an MCB imagine for a DN20.? A DN20 requires a
DTE, which the KS does not have.? You'd need something to DMA Unibus to
Unibus and I'm not sure whether that was ever a thing. Sounds like a
great idea, if you ask me.
However, I don't think any of it will be useful.? Also, I can't quite
tell; it may be Phase III.? At least a document says as much.? Have a
look at VENTI2::H240B.LST, which is a listing of the DUMPER save sets
and VENTI2::DECNET.DOC, which is the initial documentation for the release.
How would you like to proceed?? Skip this and look at the second tape,
which appears to be a 2020 based distribution?
On 12/28/21 7:34 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Dec 28, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
dir mta0: would only work for either a Tops-20 or ANSI labeled tape
with volume recognition on.? You're not doing that by assigning the
tape drive directly.
But they're probably not labeled; I don't recall that DEC shipped
this way.
If you let me know what tapes you're looking at, I can have a look
and give you some pointers or tips.
BB-H240B-BM.tap.gz
<http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/TOPS-20/BB-H240B-BM.tap.gz>?is
one, BB-H241B-BM.tap.gz
<http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/TOPS-20/BB-H241B-BM.tap.gz>?the
other. ?I'm not sure which is right. ?The description file
(labels_combined.txt
<http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/labels_combined.txt>)
has them listed as:
BB-H240B-BM ? ? ? ? DECNET-20 V2 DIST TAPE ?1980 ? ? _tops-20
BB-H241B-BM ? ? ? ? DECNET-20 2020 V2 DISTRIBUTION ?1980 ? ? _tops-20
paul
8:43 p.m.
At this point I'm all set. Reindert pointed me to a DECnet 2.1 for 2020 tape, and I
copied the files on it to disk with dumper. After that, the installation procedure in the
manual did the job. The missing part, and bafflingly so, is the dumper instructions to
get the files off tape.
I also found that the "DECnet 2.1 SWS tape" has a whole bunch of neat stuff on
it.
paul
On Dec 29, 2021, at 8:58 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
I downloaded both images, but am only looking at BB-H240B-BM at the moment.
This appears to be a KL distribution as it has a rather sizeable directory for building
an MCB imagine for a DN20. A DN20 requires a DTE, which the KS does not have. You'd
need something to DMA Unibus to Unibus and I'm not sure whether that was ever a thing.
Sounds like a great idea, if you ask me.
However, I don't think any of it will be useful. Also, I can't quite tell; it
may be Phase III. At least a document says as much. Have a look at VENTI2::H240B.LST,
which is a listing of the DUMPER save sets and VENTI2::DECNET.DOC, which is the initial
documentation for the release.
How would you like to proceed? Skip this and look at the second tape, which appears to
be a 2020 based distribution?
On 12/28/21 7:34 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>
>> On Dec 28, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Thomas DeBellis <tommytimesharing at gmail.com
<mailto:tommytimesharing at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> dir mta0: would only work for either a Tops-20 or ANSI labeled tape with volume
recognition on. You're not doing that by assigning the tape drive directly.
>>
>> But they're probably not labeled; I don't recall that DEC shipped this
way.
>>
>> If you let me know what tapes you're looking at, I can have a look and give
you some pointers or tips.
>
> BB-H240B-BM.tap.gz
<http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/TOPS-20/BB-H240B-BM.tap.gz>
is one, BB-H241B-BM.tap.gz
<http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/TOPS-20/BB-H241B-BM.tap.gz>
the other. I'm not sure which is right. The description file (labels_combined.txt
<http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/labels_combined.txt>)
has them listed as:
>
> BB-H240B-BM DECNET-20 V2 DIST TAPE 1980 _tops-20
> BB-H241B-BM DECNET-20 2020 V2 DISTRIBUTION 1980 _tops-20
>
> paul
>
8:45 p.m.
Cool beans.? Get me those tape labels, would you?
On 12/30/21 2:43 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
At this point I'm all set. ?Reindert pointed me to
a DECnet 2.1 for
2020 tape, and I copied the files on it to disk with dumper. ?After
that, the installation procedure in the manual did the job. ?The
missing part, and bafflingly so, is the dumper instructions to get the
files off tape.
I also found that the "DECnet 2.1 SWS tape" has a whole bunch of neat
stuff on it.
paul
On Dec 29, 2021, at 8:58 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
I downloaded both images, but am only looking at BB-H240B-BM at the
moment.
This appears to be a KL distribution as it has a rather sizeable
directory for building an MCB imagine for a DN20.? A DN20 requires a
DTE, which the KS does not have.? You'd need something to DMA Unibus
to Unibus and I'm not sure whether that was ever a thing.? Sounds
like a great idea, if you ask me.
However, I don't think any of it will be useful.? Also, I can't quite
tell; it may be Phase III.? At least a document says as much.? Have a
look at VENTI2::H240B.LST, which is a listing of the DUMPER save sets
and VENTI2::DECNET.DOC, which is the initial documentation for the
release.
How would you like to proceed?? Skip this and look at the second
tape, which appears to be a 2020 based distribution?
On 12/28/21 7:34 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
>
>> On Dec 28, 2021, at 5:11 PM, Thomas DeBellis
>> <tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> dir mta0: would only work for either a Tops-20 or ANSI labeled tape
>> with volume recognition on.? You're not doing that by assigning the
>> tape drive directly.
>>
>> But they're probably not labeled; I don't recall that DEC shipped
>> this way.
>>
>> If you let me know what tapes you're looking at, I can have a look
>> and give you some pointers or tips.
>
> BB-H240B-BM.tap.gz
>
<http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/TOPS-20/BB-H240B-BM.tap.gz>?is
> one, BB-H241B-BM.tap.gz
>
<http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/TOPS-20/BB-H241B-BM.tap.gz>?the
> other. ?I'm not sure which is right. ?The description file
> (labels_combined.txt
>
<http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp10/magtape/dec_distribs/labels_combined.txt>)
> has them listed as:
>
> BB-H240B-BM ? ? ? ? DECNET-20 V2 DIST TAPE ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1980 ? ?
> _tops-20
> BB-H241B-BM ? ? ? ? DECNET-20 2020 V2 DISTRIBUTION ? ? ? ?1980 ? ?
> _tops-20
>
> paul
>
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days inactive
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8 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
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paulkoning＠comcast.net -
R.Voorhorst＠swabhawat.com -
tommytimesharing＠gmail.com