18 Feb
2019
18 Feb
'19
5:42 p.m.
Anyone using DECnet Phase-V on VAX/VMS V7.3 in the HECnet community?
I am rebuilding SGC::. It is MUCH bigger and faster so I may go the Phase-V route if it
has any real value. Comments?
Thanks!
-Steve
18 Feb
18 Feb
5:47 p.m.
On 19 Feb 2019, at 12:42 am, Steve Davidson <steve at davidson.net> wrote:
Anyone using DECnet Phase-V on VAX/VMS V7.3 in the HECnet community?
I am rebuilding SGC::. It is MUCH bigger and faster so I may go the Phase-V route if it
has any real value. Comments?
I have Phase V on my VMS VAX, Alpha and Tru64 systems. DECnet Phase IV is what is routed
over the larger network though. My GRE tunnels only pass Phase IV traffic.
Regards, Tim.
6:18 p.m.
On Feb 18, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Steve Davidson <steve
at davidson.net> wrote:
Anyone using DECnet Phase-V on VAX/VMS V7.3 in the HECnet community?
I am rebuilding SGC::. It is MUCH bigger and faster so I may go the Phase-V route if it
has any real value. Comments?
Thanks!
-Steve
My view is that Phase V has real value in two cases:
(1) you're connecting to non-DEC systems that speak OSI. I'm not sure how many
are out there. A CDC mainframe running the later NOS versions with CDCNET support would
be an example, but I'm not sure that the CDCNET emulation in DtCyber includes those
parts.
(2) you have a DECnet network that's large enough to make 16 bit addresses
problematic. The DEC internal network (originally "Engineering Network") is
one, but I don't know if anyone else ever built a DECnet large enough for this to
apply. HECnet is probably still under 1000 nodes at the moment, so it doesn't seem to
apply here.
paul
6:34 p.m.
Steve
Three VAX/VMS systems run phase V:
One Vaxstation 4000-90A with 32 MB memory on V7.3
Two Vaxstations 4000-60 with 24 resp 16 MB both run V7.2
No performance issues noted. The only reason to run phase V on them is for my ncl skills
(what is left that is).
Around 1995 all systems at Fuji Tilburg ran phase V, approx. 100 VAX and early AXP
systems. We were sent on a course and at the time I found ncl very detailed, gave lots of
information not available with NCP and, because of the course, easy to understand and use.
Today I can still recall NCP without consulting a manual or built in help. That does not
apply for ncl :)
Hans
PS
Two AlphaServer 800s run Tru64 hence phase V, but that
Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone
Op 18 feb. 2019 om 17:42 heeft Steve Davidson
<steve at davidson.net> het volgende geschreven:
Anyone using DECnet Phase-V on VAX/VMS V7.3 in the HECnet community?
I am rebuilding SGC::. It is MUCH bigger and faster so I may go the Phase-V route if it
has any real value. Comments?
Thanks!
-Steve
8:39 p.m.
On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:42 AM, Steve Davidson <steve
at davidson.net> wrote:
Anyone using DECnet Phase-V on VAX/VMS V7.3 in the HECnet community?
I am rebuilding SGC::. It is MUCH bigger and faster so I may go the Phase-V route if it
has any real value. Comments?
Thanks!
-Steve
Years ago I moved my Alpha from Phase V to Phase IV, and I considered it an upgrade. I?m
strictly Phase IV here. I have no need for Phase V.
Zane
11:41 p.m.
On 2/18/19 2:39 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
Years ago I moved my Alpha from Phase V to Phase IV,
and I considered it an upgrade. I?m strictly Phase IV here. I have no need for Phase V.
^^^ exactly same here
Zane
--
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got no gal to make you smile
Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
19 Feb
19 Feb
3:32 a.m.
On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 3:39 AM Zane Healy <healyzh at avanthar.com> wrote:
I suppose it is really about needs and preference. I don't really use many
of the "new" features, but on the other hand I spent years working with it
and I have no resource limits. So, Phase V it is :-)
Regards, Tim.
On Feb 18,
2019, at 8:42 AM, Steve Davidson <steve at davidson.net> wrote:
Anyone using DECnet Phase-V on VAX/VMS V7.3 in the HECnet community?
I am rebuilding SGC::. It is MUCH bigger and faster so I may go the
Phase-V route
if it has any real value. Comments?
Thanks!
-Steve
Years ago I moved my Alpha from Phase V to Phase IV, and I considered it
an upgrade. I?m strictly Phase IV here. I have no need for Phase V.
10 Mar
10 Mar
3:28 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie questions, surely:
1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It
appears it was at the least added to the NetBSD target by Olaf
'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by
https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for example,
something like
# DECnet adapter
devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY
# IP adapter
devdef ni1 1500 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip
enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on which I
could have an account to look around?
Thanks
Supratim
3:40 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
As far as I am aware, it was never supported to have more than one
NIA-20 on a KL10.
Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it would be
of limited use, had it even been supported.
(Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in case
the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two separate
ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if the NIA-20
itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power down the machine
anyhow.)
I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any have a guest account.
Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside TOPS-20.
But it's a good question if there is any TOPS-20 machine on HECnet with
guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to just
experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
I don't have any myself.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie
questions, surely:
1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It
appears it was at the least added? to the NetBSD target by Olaf
'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by
https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for example,
something like
# DECnet adapter
devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY
# IP adapter
devdef ni1 1500 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip
enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on which I
could have an account to look around?
Thanks
Supratim
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
3:50 p.m.
New subject: RSTS/E 10.1 DECnet/E 4.1 noob question
How do I get the executor to be an end-node?
$ NCP
NCP>SHOW EXEC CHAR
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 10-MAR-19 08:50:34
Executor Node = 31.28 (RST101)
State = On
Identification = DECnet/E V4.1
Management Version = 4.3.0
Loop Count = 1
Loop Length = 128
Loop With = Mixed
Counter Timer = 0
Incoming Timer = 120
Outgoing Timer = 120
ECL Version = 4.0.0
Maximum Links = 32
Delay Factor = 48
Delay Weight = 3
Inactivity Timer = 120
Retransmit Factor = 5
Routing Version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV
Routing Timer = 120
Broadcast Routing Timer = 40
Maximum Address = 1023
Maximum Circuits = 16
Maximum Cost = 1022
Maximum Hops = 30
Maximum Visits = 32
Maximum Area = 63
Max Broadcast Nonrouters = 64
Max Broadcast Routers = 16
Maximum Buffers = 100
Buffer Size = 576
Segment Buffer Size = 576
Default Account = [50,1]
Data Xmit Queue Max = 4
Int/LS Queue Max = 2
Maximum Nodes = 3000
Volatile Param File Name = SY0:[0,1]NSP0.SYS
NCP>DEFINE EXEC TYPE NONROUTING IV
?Invalid command - DEFINE EXEC \\TYPE NONROUTING IV\\
NCP>HELP DEFINE EXEC
Programs
NCP
DEFINE
EXECUTOR
Use the SET EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
volatile database which controls the network on the executor node.
Use the DEFINE EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters
in the
volatile database which controls the network on the executor node.
SET EXECUTOR (parameters ...)
Additional help is available on:
ALL ADDRESS BROADCAST ROUTING TIMER
BUFFER SIZE COUNTER TIMER DATA TRANSMIT QUEUE MAXIMUM
DEFAULT ACCOUNT DELAY FACTOR DELAY WEIGHT IDENTIFICATION
INACTIVITY TIMER INCOMING TIMER INTERRUPT TRANSMIT QUEUE MAXIMUM
MAXIMUM ADDRESS MAXIMUM AREA MAXIMUM BROADCAST NONROUTERS
MAXIMUM BROADCAST ROUTERS. MAXIMUM BUFFERS MAXIMUM CIRCUITS
MAXIMUM COST MAXIMUM HOPS MAXIMUM LINKS MAXIMUM NODES
MAXIMUM VISITS NAME OUTGOING TIMER RETRANSMIT FACTOR
ROUTING TIMER SEGMENT BUFFER SIZE STATE
TRANSMIT ANSWER PASSWORD TRANSMIT ORIGINATE PASSWORD
VOLATILE PARAMETER FILE NAME Examples NODE
Programs NCP DEFINE EXECUTOR Subtopic?
3:58 p.m.
New subject: RSTS/E 10.1 DECnet/E 4.1 noob question
On 3/10/19 10:53 AM, Oleg Safiullin wrote:
I think it's a sysgen option in RSTS.
jeez. ok, looking there. thanks.
On 10-Mar-2019 21:50, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
> How do I get the executor to be an end-node?
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got no gal to make you smile
Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
4:05 p.m.
New subject: RSTS/E 10.1 DECnet/E 4.1 noob question
BTW, there's a script I wrote for RSTS/E at BOPOHA::[.RSTS]NODES.COM
You may find it useful to copy known nodes from another node (DECnet/E doesn't have
this feature):
$ @NODES
Usage: @NODES ADDR NAME [LOG]
$
$ @NODES 1.13 MIM
$
On 10-Mar-2019 21:58, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
On 3/10/19 10:53 AM, Oleg Safiullin wrote:
I think it's a sysgen option in RSTS.
jeez. ok, looking there. thanks.
On 10-Mar-2019 21:50, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
> How do I get the executor to be an end-node?
4:25 p.m.
New subject: RSTS/E 10.1 DECnet/E 4.1 noob question
On 3/10/19 11:05 AM, Oleg Safiullin wrote:
BTW, there's a script I wrote for RSTS/E at
BOPOHA::[.RSTS]NODES.COM
You may find it useful to copy known nodes from another node (DECnet/E
doesn't have this feature):
$ @NODES
Usage: @NODES ADDR NAME [LOG]
$
$ @NODES 1.13 MIM
$
Thanks Oleg. I gave up yesterday after entering about 20 nodes manually
into NCP; this is awesome.
On 10-Mar-2019 21:58, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
> On 3/10/19 10:53 AM, Oleg Safiullin wrote:
>> I think it's a sysgen option in RSTS.
>>
>
> jeez. ok, looking there. thanks.
>
>> On 10-Mar-2019 21:50, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
>>> How do I get the executor to be an end-node?
>
>
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got no gal to make you smile
Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
4:35 p.m.
New subject: RSTS/E 10.1 DECnet/E 4.1 noob question
On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 11:05 PM Oleg Safiullin <form at pdp-11.online> wrote:
BTW, there's a script I wrote for RSTS/E at
BOPOHA::[.RSTS]NODES.COM
You may find it useful to copy known nodes from another node (DECnet/E
doesn't have this feature):
$ @NODES
Usage: @NODES ADDR NAME [LOG]
$
$ @NODES 1.13 MIM
$
I have something similar that I use to run a nightly batch job that
downloads the node list from MIM and loads it into my local database. It
is below in case anyone is interested.
Regards, Tim.
$ ! Procedure: UPDHEC.COM
$ set noon
$ on control_c then goto bail_out
$ on warning then goto bail_out
$ if (.not. f$environment("INTERACTIVE")) then set noverify
$ say = "write 0"
$ procedure = f$environment("PROCEDURE")
$ queue = f$edit(p1, 2+4+8+16+32+128+256)
$
$start:
$ if (f$access() .eqs. "BATCH") then goto init
$ if (queue .eqs. "") then goto no_queue
$ say "?Submitting update job to ''queue'"
$ submit/queue='queue'/parameters=("''queue'")
'procedure'
$ goto bail_out
$
$no_queue:
$ say "?No queue specified, exiting..."
$ goto bail_out
$
$init:
$ remote = "1.13""guest guest""::SY0:[DECNET]NODENAMES.DAT"
$ local = "SY:[1,2]NODNAM.DAT"
$
$run:
$ say "?Copying remote node database to local system"
$ copy/log/replace 'remote' 'local'
$
$ say "?Verifying database header"
$ open/read 2 'local'
$ read/end_of_file=end_loop 2 line
$ if (f$edit(line,2) .nes. "") then goto err_badhdr
$ read/end_of_file=end_loop 2 line
$ if (f$edit(line,2) .nes. "NODENODE") then goto err_badhdr
$ read/end_of_file=end_loop 2 line
$ if (f$edit(line,2) .nes. "ADDRESSNAME") then goto err_badhdr
$ read/end_of_file=end_loop 2 line
$ if (f$edit(line,2) .nes. "") then goto err_badhdr
$ say "?Header verified"
$
$ say "?Clearing known nodes"
$ ncp clear known nodes all
$ say "?Purging known nodes"
$ ncp purge known nodes all
$
$ i = 0
$ j = 0
$ area = 0
$ node = f$left(f$node(), f$length(f$node()) - 2)
$loop:
$ read/end_of_file=end_loop 2 line
$ line = f$edit(line, 8+16+32+128)
$ pos = f$instr(0, line, " ")
$ addr = f$left(line, pos-1)
$ name = f$right(line, pos+1)
$
$ i = i + 1
$ if (name .eqs. node) then goto loop
$
$ say "?Adding entry for ''name' at ''addr'"
$ if (name .nes. node) then ncp define node 'addr' NAME 'name'
$ goto loop
$end_loop:
$ say "?Node database updated"
$ goto bail_out
$
$err_badhdr:
$ say "?Nodename database header is invalid"
$ goto bail_out
$
$bail_out:
$ if (f$access() .nes. "BATCH") then goto bail_out_nobatch
$ say "?Resubmitting HECnet name register procedure"
$ submit/queue='queue'/parameters=("''queue'")/after=TODAY
'procedure'
$ close 2
$
$bail_out_nobatch:
$ exit 1
$
!+==========================================================================
$ ! Procedure: UPDHEC.COM
$ !
$ ! Purpose: Download the latest HECnet node database from MIM (1.13) and
$ ! apply it to the running system.
$ !
$ ! This procedure is expected to run under DCL on RSTS/E.
$ !
$ ! Parameters: P1 = Batch queue to submit procedure to
$ !
$ ! History:
$ ! 28-May-2014, TES; Version V1-001
$ ! 001 - Original version.
$
!+==========================================================================
4:54 p.m.
New subject: RSTS/E 10.1 DECnet/E 4.1 noob question
This actually brings to mind to things I could mention...
1. I don't mind creating specific scripts for different OSes, if needed.
I can make that fully automated. I already do for VMS.
If people check under MIM::HECNET: (which is the same as US:[DECNET]),
you can find FIX.COM, which is a command file to updating the nodenames
in VMS, and FIX.CMD, which just defines things for RSX.
If needed, I can create more files, in various formats easily. Just let
me know how they should look like, and I'll make it. It's really easy.
2. Whenever the nodename database actually is updated, I can also send
out mails. If you have some smart system, you can even trigger an update
based on that then. Or else download the file regularly and check if
there are any differences to your previously downloaded file, and apply
the new file if needed.
There are plenty of ways to automate things here, and I'm happy to help out.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 16:35, Tim Sneddon wrote:
On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 11:05 PM Oleg Safiullin
<form at pdp-11.online> wrote:
BTW, there's a script I wrote for RSTS/E at BOPOHA::[.RSTS]NODES.COM
<http://NODES.COM>
You may find it useful to copy known nodes from another node
(DECnet/E doesn't have this feature):
$ @NODES
Usage: @NODES ADDR NAME [LOG]
$
$ @NODES 1.13 MIM
$
I have something similar that I use to run a nightly batch job that
downloads the node list from MIM and loads it into my local database.
It is below in case anyone is interested.
Regards, Tim.
$ ! Procedure:UPDHEC.COM <http://UPDHEC.COM>
$ set noon
$ on control_c then goto bail_out
$ on warning then goto bail_out
$ if (.not. f$environment("INTERACTIVE")) then set noverify
$ say = "write 0"
$ procedure = f$environment("PROCEDURE")
$ queue = f$edit(p1, 2+4+8+16+32+128+256)
$
$start:
$ if (f$access() .eqs. "BATCH") then goto init
$ if (queue .eqs. "") then goto no_queue
$ say "?Submitting update job to ''queue'"
$ submit/queue='queue'/parameters=("''queue'")
'procedure'
$ goto bail_out
$
$no_queue:
$ say "?No queue specified, exiting..."
$ goto bail_out
$
$init:
$ remote = "1.13""guest
guest""::SY0:[DECNET]NODENAMES.DAT"
$ local = "SY:[1,2]NODNAM.DAT"
$
$run:
$ say "?Copying remote node database to local system"
$ copy/log/replace 'remote' 'local'
$
$ say "?Verifying database header"
$ open/read 2 'local'
$ read/end_of_file=end_loop 2 line
$ if (f$edit(line,2) .nes. "") then goto err_badhdr
$ read/end_of_file=end_loop 2 line
$ if (f$edit(line,2) .nes. "NODENODE") then goto err_badhdr
$ read/end_of_file=end_loop 2 line
$ if (f$edit(line,2) .nes. "ADDRESSNAME") then goto err_badhdr
$ read/end_of_file=end_loop 2 line
$ if (f$edit(line,2) .nes. "") then goto err_badhdr
$ say "?Header verified"
$
$ say "?Clearing known nodes"
$ ncp clear known nodes all
$ say "?Purging known nodes"
$ ncp purge known nodes all
$
$ i = 0
$ j = 0
$ area = 0
$ node = f$left(f$node(), f$length(f$node()) - 2)
$loop:
$ read/end_of_file=end_loop 2 line
$ line = f$edit(line, 8+16+32+128)
$ pos? = f$instr(0, line, " ")
$ addr = f$left(line, pos-1)
$ name = f$right(line, pos+1)
$
$ i = i + 1
$ if (name .eqs. node) then goto loop
$
$ say "?Adding entry for ''name' at ''addr'"
$ if (name .nes. node) then ncp define node 'addr' NAME 'name'
$ goto loop
$end_loop:
$ say "?Node database updated"
$ goto bail_out
$
$err_badhdr:
$ say "?Nodename database header is invalid"
$ goto bail_out
$
$bail_out:
$ if (f$access() .nes. "BATCH") then goto bail_out_nobatch
$ say "?Resubmitting HECnet name register procedure"
$ submit/queue='queue'/parameters=("''queue'")/after=TODAY
'procedure'
$ close 2
$
$bail_out_nobatch:
$ exit 1
$
!+==========================================================================
$ ! Procedure: UPDHEC.COM <http://UPDHEC.COM>
$ !
$ ! Purpose:Download the latest HECnet node database from MIM (1.13) and
$ !apply it to the running system.
$ !
$ !? ? ? ? ? ? ?This procedure is expected to run under DCL on RSTS/E.
$ !
$ ! Parameters:P1 = Batch queue to submit procedure to
$ !
$ ! History:
$ !28-May-2014, TES; Version V1-001
$ !001 -Original version.
$
!+==========================================================================
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
4:03 p.m.
New subject: RSTS/E 10.1 DECnet/E 4.1 noob question
Depending on the system, it might be something you choose at installation.
I've never configured RSTS/E, so I don't know for sure about that one.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 15:50, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
How do I get the executor to be an end-node?
$ NCP
NCP>SHOW EXEC CHAR
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 10-MAR-19 08:50:34
Executor Node = 31.28 (RST101)
State????????????????????? = On
Identification???????????? = DECnet/E V4.1
Management Version???????? = 4.3.0
Loop Count???????????????? = 1
Loop Length??????????????? = 128
Loop With????????????????? = Mixed
Counter Timer????????????? = 0
Incoming Timer???????????? = 120
Outgoing Timer???????????? = 120
ECL Version??????????????? = 4.0.0
Maximum Links????????????? = 32
Delay Factor?????????????? = 48
Delay Weight?????????????? = 3
Inactivity Timer?????????? = 120
Retransmit Factor????????? = 5
Routing Version??????????? = 2.0.0
Type?????????????????????? = Routing IV
Routing Timer????????????? = 120
Broadcast Routing Timer??? = 40
Maximum Address??????????? = 1023
Maximum Circuits?????????? = 16
Maximum Cost?????????????? = 1022
Maximum Hops?????????????? = 30
Maximum Visits???????????? = 32
Maximum Area?????????????? = 63
Max Broadcast Nonrouters?? = 64
Max Broadcast Routers????? = 16
Maximum Buffers??????????? = 100
Buffer Size??????????????? = 576
Segment Buffer Size??????? = 576
Default Account??????????? = [50,1]
Data Xmit Queue Max??????? = 4
Int/LS Queue Max?????????? = 2
Maximum Nodes????????????? = 3000
Volatile Param File Name?? = SY0:[0,1]NSP0.SYS
NCP>DEFINE EXEC TYPE NONROUTING IV
?Invalid command - DEFINE EXEC \\TYPE NONROUTING IV\\
NCP>HELP DEFINE EXEC
Programs
? NCP
??? DEFINE
????? EXECUTOR
??????? Use the SET EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters in the
??????? volatile database which controls the network on the executor node.
??????? Use the DEFINE EXECUTOR command to create or modify parameters
in the
??????? volatile database which controls the network on the executor node.
??????? SET???? EXECUTOR??????? (parameters ...)
??????? Additional help is available on:
??????? ALL???????????? ADDRESS???????? BROADCAST ROUTING TIMER
??????? BUFFER SIZE???? COUNTER TIMER?? DATA TRANSMIT QUEUE MAXIMUM
??????? DEFAULT ACCOUNT DELAY FACTOR??? DELAY WEIGHT??? IDENTIFICATION
??????? INACTIVITY TIMER? INCOMING TIMER? INTERRUPT TRANSMIT QUEUE MAXIMUM
??????? MAXIMUM ADDRESS MAXIMUM AREA??? MAXIMUM BROADCAST NONROUTERS
??????? MAXIMUM BROADCAST ROUTERS.????? MAXIMUM BUFFERS MAXIMUM CIRCUITS
??????? MAXIMUM COST??? MAXIMUM HOPS??? MAXIMUM LINKS?? MAXIMUM NODES
??????? MAXIMUM VISITS? NAME??????????? OUTGOING TIMER? RETRANSMIT FACTOR
??????? ROUTING TIMER?? SEGMENT BUFFER SIZE???????????? STATE
??????? TRANSMIT ANSWER PASSWORD??????? TRANSMIT ORIGINATE PASSWORD
??????? VOLATILE PARAMETER FILE NAME??? Examples??????? NODE
?Programs NCP DEFINE EXECUTOR Subtopic?
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
4:53 p.m.
New subject: RSTS/E 10.1 DECnet/E 4.1 noob question
Set Max Circuits to 1. You need to do that in the persistent settings, i.e., "clear
system", "define exec max circuits 1", "set system" (or restart,
of course).
paul
On Mar 10, 2019, at 10:50 AM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
How do I get the executor to be an end-node?
$ NCP
NCP>SHOW EXEC CHAR
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 10-MAR-19 08:50:34
Executor Node = 31.28 (RST101)
State = On
Identification = DECnet/E V4.1
Management Version = 4.3.0
Loop Count = 1
Loop Length = 128
Loop With = Mixed
Counter Timer = 0
Incoming Timer = 120
Outgoing Timer = 120
ECL Version = 4.0.0
Maximum Links = 32
Delay Factor = 48
Delay Weight = 3
Inactivity Timer = 120
Retransmit Factor = 5
Routing Version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV
Routing Timer = 120
Broadcast Routing Timer = 40
Maximum Address = 1023
Maximum Circuits = 16 ...
5:01 p.m.
New subject: RSTS/E 10.1 DECnet/E 4.1 noob question
On 3/10/19 11:53 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got no gal to make you smile
Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
Set Max Circuits to 1. You need to do that in the
persistent settings, i.e., "clear system", "define exec max circuits
1", "set system" (or restart, of course).
paul
Bingo! ** RSTS/E is on the air... as Non-Routing IV! Thanks Paul.
Event type 4.15, Adjacency up
Occurred 25-Feb-32 09:50:09.4 on node 31.28 (RST101)
Circuit QNA-0
Node address = 31.1023 (IMPRTR)
RSTS V10.1-L 10-Mar-19 09:50 AM
User: 200,1
Password:
Last interactive login on 10-Mar-19, 09:50 AM at KB0:
$ ncp
NCP>show exec char
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 10-MAR-19 09:50:34
Executor Node = 31.28 (RST101)
State = On
Identification = DECnet/E V4.1
Management Version = 4.3.0
Loop Count = 1
Loop Length = 128
Loop With = Mixed
Counter Timer = 0
Incoming Timer = 120
Outgoing Timer = 120
ECL Version = 4.0.0
Maximum Links = 32
Delay Factor = 48
Delay Weight = 3
Inactivity Timer = 120
Retransmit Factor = 5
Routing Version = 2.0.0
Type = Non-Routing IV
Routing Timer = 120
Broadcast Routing Timer = 40
Maximum Address = 1023
Maximum Circuits = 1
Maximum Cost = 1022
Maximum Hops = 30
Maximum Visits = 32
Maximum Area = 63
Max Broadcast Nonrouters = 64
Max Broadcast Routers = 16
Maximum Buffers = 100
Buffer Size = 576
Segment Buffer Size = 576
Default Account = [50,1]
Data Xmit Queue Max = 4
Int/LS Queue Max = 2
Maximum Nodes = 3000
Volatile Param File Name = SY0:[0,1]NSP0.SYS
NCP>
On Mar 10,
2019, at 10:50 AM, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
How do I get the executor to be an end-node?
$ NCP
NCP>SHOW EXEC CHAR
Node Volatile Characteristics as of 10-MAR-19 08:50:34
Executor Node = 31.28 (RST101)
State = On
Identification = DECnet/E V4.1
Management Version = 4.3.0
Loop Count = 1
Loop Length = 128
Loop With = Mixed
Counter Timer = 0
Incoming Timer = 120
Outgoing Timer = 120
ECL Version = 4.0.0
Maximum Links = 32
Delay Factor = 48
Delay Weight = 3
Inactivity Timer = 120
Retransmit Factor = 5
Routing Version = 2.0.0
Type = Routing IV
Routing Timer = 120
Broadcast Routing Timer = 40
Maximum Address = 1023
Maximum Circuits = 16 ...
11 Mar
11 Mar
5:48 p.m.
New subject: RSTS/E 10.1 DECnet/E 4.1 noob question
On Mar 10, 2019, at 12:01 PM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
On 3/10/19 11:53 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
Excellent.
Clarification: "set system" reloads the current settings from the permanent (set
via "define" command). But some settings are handled at system startup. The
selection of end node vs. routing node is one of those.
So if you change max circuits from 1 to not-1 -- which changes from endnode to routing
node -- you need to restart the system for that to take effect.
paul
Set Max Circuits to 1. You need to do that in
the persistent settings, i.e., "clear system", "define exec max circuits
1", "set system" (or restart, of course).
paul
Bingo! ** RSTS/E is on the air... as Non-Routing IV! Thanks Paul.
Event type 4.15, Adjacency up
Occurred 25-Feb-32 09:50:09.4 on node 31.28 (RST101)
Circuit QNA-0
Node address = 31.1023 (IMPRTR)
10 Mar
10 Mar
4:23 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
As far as I am aware, it was never supported to have
more than one
NIA-20 on a KL10.
Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it would be
of limited use, had it even been supported.
(Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in case
the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two separate
ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if the NIA-20
itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power down the machine
anyhow.)
Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC is
supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets isolated
if I can; two NICs help.
I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any have a
guest account.
Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside TOPS-20.
Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below, curious
about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up now, working
through tips for the basics.
But it's a good question if there is any TOPS-20
machine on HECnet with
guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to just
experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
I don't have any myself.
? Johnny
On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got no gal to make you smile
Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20.
Newbie questions, surely:
1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It
appears it was at the least added? to the NetBSD target by Olaf
'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by
https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for example,
something like
# DECnet adapter
devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY
# IP adapter
devdef ni1 1500 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip
enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on which I
could have an account to look around?
Thanks
Supratim
4:29 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
Supratim,
On 2019-03-10 16:23, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
Hum... The Panda release would be MRCs stuff. Wasn't that for the KS?
Maybe I'm misremembering. MRC did play with KLH10 as well, I seem to
remember.
As far as basics of TOPS-20 goes... Wow. That could be a big subject.
Make sure you have an account with the WHEEL bit set. Then enable the
privileged commands (it was either ENABLE or ^E ENABLE). After that, you
could go into OPR to start fooling around with operator stuff.
From OPR, you can then get into NCP for DECnet stuff, for example.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Well, I guess with a PDP-10, that is out of the question.
As far as I am aware, it was never supported to
have more than one
NIA-20 on a KL10.
Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it would
be of limited use, had it even been supported.
(Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in case
the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two separate
ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if the NIA-20
itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power down the machine
anyhow.)
Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC is
supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets isolated
if I can; two NICs help. I know of
KLH10s, but I don't know if any have a guest account.
Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside TOPS-20.
Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below, curious
about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up now, working
through tips for the basics. But it's a good question if there is any
TOPS-20 machine on HECnet
with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to just
experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
I don't have any myself.
?? Johnny
On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20.
Newbie questions,
surely:
1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It
appears it was at the least added? to the NetBSD target by Olaf
'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by
https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for example,
something like
# DECnet adapter
devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY
# IP adapter
devdef ni1 1500 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip
enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on which
I could have an account to look around?
Thanks
Supratim
4:40 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
Hum... The Panda release would be MRCs stuff.
Wasn't that for the KS?
Maybe I'm misremembering. MRC did play with KLH10 as well, I seem to
remember.
Yup - found it at http://panda.trailing-edge.com/
It appears he is not with us any more, sad to have read that. You guys
must have known him personally.
Anyway, some folks ported it to the Raspberry Pi - Posted by Jordi
Guillaumes Pons' post is awesome, as is this one I don't know who wrote
this: http://www.ldx.ca/notes/tops-20-notes.html
As far as basics of TOPS-20 goes... Wow. That could be
a big subject.
Make sure you have an account with the WHEEL bit set. Then enable the
privileged commands (it was either ENABLE or ^E ENABLE). After that, you
could go into OPR to start fooling around with operator stuff.
From OPR, you can then get into NCP for DECnet stuff, for example.
Awesome - every bit helps; am learning fast! Thanks Johnny.
? Johnny
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got no gal to make you smile
Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
But it's a good question if there is any
TOPS-20 machine on HECnet
with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to
just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
I don't have any myself.
?? Johnny
On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20.
Newbie questions,
surely:
1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It
appears it was at the least added? to the NetBSD target by Olaf
'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by
https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for
example, something like
# DECnet adapter
devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY
# IP adapter
devdef ni1 1500 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip
enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on which
I could have an account to look around?
Thanks
Supratim
4:48 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
Hi.
On 2019-03-10 16:40, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
Ah. Great.
TOPS-20 is really cool, but it's hard to sum up like this. But all the
manuals are around...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Hum... The
Panda release would be MRCs stuff. Wasn't that for the KS?
Maybe I'm misremembering. MRC did play with KLH10 as well, I seem to
remember.
Yup - found it at http://panda.trailing-edge.com/ It appears he is not with us any more, sad to have
read that. You guys
must have known him personally.
Yeah, sad. Quite a few years now. I never met him in person, as he lived
in Seattle, and I never came around to there until just a few years ago.
But we had lots of mail exchanges over the years.
Anyway, some folks ported it to the Raspberry Pi -
Posted by Jordi
Guillaumes Pons' post is awesome, as is this one I don't know who wrote
this: http://www.ldx.ca/notes/tops-20-notes.html
Cool.
As far as
basics of TOPS-20 goes... Wow. That could be a big subject.
Make sure you have an account with the WHEEL bit set. Then enable the
privileged commands (it was either ENABLE or ^E ENABLE). After that,
you could go into OPR to start fooling around with operator stuff.
?From OPR, you can then get into NCP for DECnet stuff, for example.
Awesome - every bit helps; am learning fast! Thanks Johnny. 
5:25 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
Hi folks,
I?m not sure if this will help. I am the original author of much of DECnet for TOPS-10
and Tops-20. The code base is the same for both OSes, written in Macro, and it was called
internally DECnet-36. It was developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it
was restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full routing node. It
supported KL and KS machines. Real KL?s were only shipped with PDP-11?s as front ends
using an adapter called the DTE - so that?s how they where connected to Ethernet. KS?s
had an UNIBUS adapter, so I could talk directly to NI adapters. So even though a KL was a
full DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an end-node, since it?s only
connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was through an -11. I would imagine that you could
configure a KS with multiple NIs.
At least that?s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
Have fun!
Vern
On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net> wrote:
On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
As far as I am aware, it was never supported to
have more than one NIA-20 on a KL10.
Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it would be of limited use,
had it even been supported.
(Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in case the first one
broke, but it was rare that you would have two separate ethernets in the first place, so
then it would only be if the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to
power down the machine anyhow.)
Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC is supported. I just
try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets isolated if I can; two NICs help.
I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any
have a guest account. Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside
TOPS-20.
Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below, curious about what it
looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up now, working through tips for the basics.
But it's a good question if there is any
TOPS-20 machine on HECnet with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others
to just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
I don't have any myself.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
> Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie questions, surely:
>
> 1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It appears it was at
the least added to the NetBSD target by Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert after being
reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
>
> 2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for example, something like
>
> # DECnet adapter
> devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY
> # IP adapter
> devdef ni1 1500 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
>
> 3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on which I could have an
account to look around?
>
> Thanks
> Supratim
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got no gal to make you smile
Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
5:57 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
Vern, your memory is either not fully up to date, or else you've
developed a few memory errors over the years. :-)
Anyway, to start from (hopefully) the right end - really cool to have
someone who worked on the code around. It should be a big benefit in the
discussions.
Now, trying to backtrack a few things. I know that Tops-10 and TOPS-20
used the same codebase. DECnet routing is something I can only make half
a comment on. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere about the end-node only
stuff, and yes, it was also related to the DTE. Basically, parts of the
whole DECnet stack is actually offloaded to the PDP-11, and not really
done on the PDP-10 to start with. But I'm sure you can correct me on
that one. But this also relates to the comments below about KL and
ethernet...
Now, on a KS, TOPS-20 never got beyond V4. Any later TOPS-20 development
never came to the KS. That includes DECnet phase IV. So, a KS never
supported DECnet over ethernet to start with. I remember having a
discussion with MRC on this many years ago. He did manage to get DECnet
phase IV up and running on a KS, and it was some kind of project
supported from DEC, but it was never productified. I'm also not sure if
KS ever supported DECnet phase III, but maybe it did over serial lines
or something. There is no DTE on a KS, so this does feel somewhat
speculative to start with. I certainly used KS a lot, but mostly with
Tops-10, ANF-10 and no other networking...
Ethernet on a KL is not done through the DTE. There was/is an ethernet
adapter for the KL, called the NIA-20, which was installed in the same
cabinet where the massbuses were. And installing the NIA-20 removed two
massbuses from the system. There was also the CI-20, which was similar,
in that it also took out two massbuses, and I think was also installed
in that area.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 17:25, Vern Brownell wrote:
Hi folks,
I?m not sure if this will help. ?I am the original author of much of
DECnet for TOPS-10 and Tops-20. ?The code base is the same for both
OSes, written in Macro, and it was called internally DECnet-36. ?It was
developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it was
restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full routing
node. ?It supported KL and KS machines. ?Real KL?s were only shipped
with PDP-11?s as front ends using an adapter called the DTE - so that?s
how they where connected to Ethernet. ?KS?s had an UNIBUS adapter, so I
could talk directly to NI adapters. ?So even though a KL was a full
DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an end-node, since
it?s only connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was through an -11. ?I would
imagine that you could configure a KS with multiple NIs.
At least that?s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
Have fun!
Vern
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net
<mailto:supratim at riseup.net>> wrote:
On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
As far as I am aware, it was never supported to
have more than one
NIA-20 on a KL10.
Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it would
be of limited use, had it even been supported.
(Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in
case the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two
separate ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if
the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power down
the machine anyhow.)
Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC is
supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets
isolated if I can; two NICs help.
I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any
have a guest account.
Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside TOPS-20.
Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below,
curious about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up now,
working through tips for the basics.
But it's a good question if there is any
TOPS-20 machine on HECnet
with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to
just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
I don't have any myself.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
> Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie questions,
> surely:
>
> 1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It
> appears it was at the least added? to the NetBSD target by Olaf
> 'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by
> https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
>
> 2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for
> example, something like
>
> # DECnet adapter
> devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
> enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY
> # IP adapter
> devdef ni1 1500 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip
> enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
>
> 3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on which
> I could have an account to look around?
>
> Thanks
> Supratim
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got no gal to make you smile
Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin 
6:30 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
Hi,
I've just got the klh10-2 system (mentioned
http://ancientbits.blogspot.com/2013/05/ten-over-pi.html) running on a debian box
connected to networking via a tap interface. I've 'installed' the panda
distribution of tops-20 and got its tcp/ip and decnet services running (but not
autostarting at the moment). You can hecnet to 29.108 to see the default message. I
haven't set up any users yet. My only memory of tops-20 is connecting over Janet to
Essex to play MUD which was quite a while ago.
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Johnny Billquist
Sent: 10 March 2019 16:58
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
Vern, your memory is either not fully up to date, or else you've developed a few
memory errors over the years. :-)
Anyway, to start from (hopefully) the right end - really cool to have someone who worked
on the code around. It should be a big benefit in the discussions.
Now, trying to backtrack a few things. I know that Tops-10 and TOPS-20 used the same
codebase. DECnet routing is something I can only make half a comment on. I'm pretty
sure I read somewhere about the end-node only stuff, and yes, it was also related to the
DTE. Basically, parts of the whole DECnet stack is actually offloaded to the PDP-11, and
not really done on the PDP-10 to start with. But I'm sure you can correct me on that
one. But this also relates to the comments below about KL and ethernet...
Now, on a KS, TOPS-20 never got beyond V4. Any later TOPS-20 development never came to the
KS. That includes DECnet phase IV. So, a KS never supported DECnet over ethernet to start
with. I remember having a discussion with MRC on this many years ago. He did manage to get
DECnet phase IV up and running on a KS, and it was some kind of project supported from
DEC, but it was never productified. I'm also not sure if KS ever supported DECnet
phase III, but maybe it did over serial lines or something. There is no DTE on a KS, so
this does feel somewhat speculative to start with. I certainly used KS a lot, but mostly
with Tops-10, ANF-10 and no other networking...
Ethernet on a KL is not done through the DTE. There was/is an ethernet adapter for the KL,
called the NIA-20, which was installed in the same cabinet where the massbuses were. And
installing the NIA-20 removed two massbuses from the system. There was also the CI-20,
which was similar, in that it also took out two massbuses, and I think was also installed
in that area.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 17:25, Vern Brownell wrote:
Hi folks,
I?m not sure if this will help. ?I am the original author of much of
DECnet for TOPS-10 and Tops-20. ?The code base is the same for both
OSes, written in Macro, and it was called internally DECnet-36. ?It
was developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it was
restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full routing
node. ?It supported KL and KS machines. ?Real KL?s were only shipped
with PDP-11?s as front ends using an adapter called the DTE - so
that?s how they where connected to Ethernet. ?KS?s had an UNIBUS
adapter, so I could talk directly to NI adapters. ?So even though a KL
was a full DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an
end-node, since it?s only connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was through
an -11. ?I would imagine that you could configure a KS with multiple NIs.
At least that?s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
Have fun!
Vern
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net
<mailto:supratim at riseup.net>> wrote:
On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
As far as I am aware, it was never supported to
have more than one
NIA-20 on a KL10.
Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it would
be of limited use, had it even been supported.
(Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in
case the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two
separate ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if
the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power down
the machine anyhow.)
Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC is
supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets
isolated if I can; two NICs help.
I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any
have a guest account.
Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside TOPS-20.
Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below,
curious about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up
now, working through tips for the basics.
But it's a good question if there is any
TOPS-20 machine on HECnet
with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to
just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
I don't have any myself.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
> Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie questions,
> surely:
>
> 1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It
> appears it was at the least added? to the NetBSD target by Olaf
> 'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by
> https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
>
> 2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for
> example, something like
>
> # DECnet adapter
> devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
> enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY # IP adapter devdef ni1 1500 ni20
> dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
>
> 3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on
> which I could have an account to look around?
>
> Thanks
> Supratim
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style Ain't got no gal to make you
smile Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
7:23 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
And would you believe it!?!?!
MDL (muddle - typed Lisp-like language) has runtime fixup issues like on Twenex. Argh!
They probably all derive from the panda distribution too.
On 10 Mar 2019, at 17:30, Keith Halewood
<Keith.Halewood at pitbulluk.org> wrote:
Hi,
I've just got the klh10-2 system (mentioned
http://ancientbits.blogspot.com/2013/05/ten-over-pi.html) running on a debian box
connected to networking via a tap interface. I've 'installed' the panda
distribution of tops-20 and got its tcp/ip and decnet services running (but not
autostarting at the moment). You can hecnet to 29.108 to see the default message. I
haven't set up any users yet. My only memory of tops-20 is connecting over Janet to
Essex to play MUD which was quite a while ago.
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Johnny Billquist
Sent: 10 March 2019 16:58
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
Vern, your memory is either not fully up to date, or else you've developed a few
memory errors over the years. :-)
Anyway, to start from (hopefully) the right end - really cool to have someone who worked
on the code around. It should be a big benefit in the discussions.
Now, trying to backtrack a few things. I know that Tops-10 and TOPS-20 used the same
codebase. DECnet routing is something I can only make half a comment on. I'm pretty
sure I read somewhere about the end-node only stuff, and yes, it was also related to the
DTE. Basically, parts of the whole DECnet stack is actually offloaded to the PDP-11, and
not really done on the PDP-10 to start with. But I'm sure you can correct me on that
one. But this also relates to the comments below about KL and ethernet...
Now, on a KS, TOPS-20 never got beyond V4. Any later TOPS-20 development never came to
the KS. That includes DECnet phase IV. So, a KS never supported DECnet over ethernet to
start with. I remember having a discussion with MRC on this many years ago. He did manage
to get DECnet phase IV up and running on a KS, and it was some kind of project supported
from DEC, but it was never productified. I'm also not sure if KS ever supported DECnet
phase III, but maybe it did over serial lines or something. There is no DTE on a KS, so
this does feel somewhat speculative to start with. I certainly used KS a lot, but mostly
with Tops-10, ANF-10 and no other networking...
Ethernet on a KL is not done through the DTE. There was/is an ethernet adapter for the
KL, called the NIA-20, which was installed in the same cabinet where the massbuses were.
And installing the NIA-20 removed two massbuses from the system. There was also the CI-20,
which was similar, in that it also took out two massbuses, and I think was also installed
in that area.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 17:25, Vern Brownell wrote:
Hi folks,
I?m not sure if this will help. I am the original author of much of
DECnet for TOPS-10 and Tops-20. The code base is the same for both
OSes, written in Macro, and it was called internally DECnet-36. It
was developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it was
restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full routing
node. It supported KL and KS machines. Real KL?s were only shipped
with PDP-11?s as front ends using an adapter called the DTE - so
that?s how they where connected to Ethernet. KS?s had an UNIBUS
adapter, so I could talk directly to NI adapters. So even though a KL
was a full DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an
end-node, since it?s only connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was through
an -11. I would imagine that you could configure a KS with multiple NIs.
At least that?s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
Have fun!
Vern
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net
<mailto:supratim at riseup.net>> wrote:
On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
As far as I am aware, it was never supported to have more than one
NIA-20 on a KL10.
Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it would
be of limited use, had it even been supported.
(Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in
case the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two
separate ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if
the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power down
the machine anyhow.)
Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC is
supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets
isolated if I can; two NICs help.
I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any
have a guest account.
Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside TOPS-20.
Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below,
curious about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up
now, working through tips for the basics.
But it's a good question if there is any
TOPS-20 machine on HECnet
with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to
just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
I don't have any myself.
Johnny
> On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
> Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie questions,
> surely:
>
> 1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It
> appears it was at the least added to the NetBSD target by Olaf
> 'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by
> https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
>
> 2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for
> example, something like
>
> # DECnet adapter
> devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
> enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY # IP adapter devdef ni1 1500 ni20
> dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
>
> 3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on
> which I could have an account to look around?
>
> Thanks
> Supratim
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style Ain't got no gal to make you
smile Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
7:51 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
I'm not sure what you are referring to here...
Not to mention that MUD have nothing to do with MDL.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 19:23, Keith Halewood wrote:
And would you believe it!?!?!
MDL (muddle - typed Lisp-like language) has runtime fixup issues like on Twenex. Argh!
They probably all derive from the panda distribution too.
> On 10 Mar 2019, at 17:30, Keith Halewood <Keith.Halewood at pitbulluk.org>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've just got the klh10-2 system (mentioned
http://ancientbits.blogspot.com/2013/05/ten-over-pi.html) running on a debian box
connected to networking via a tap interface. I've 'installed' the panda
distribution of tops-20 and got its tcp/ip and decnet services running (but not
autostarting at the moment). You can hecnet to 29.108 to see the default message. I
haven't set up any users yet. My only memory of tops-20 is connecting over Janet to
Essex to play MUD which was quite a while ago.
>
> Keith
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Johnny Billquist
> Sent: 10 March 2019 16:58
> To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
> Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
>
> Vern, your memory is either not fully up to date, or else you've developed a few
memory errors over the years. :-)
>
> Anyway, to start from (hopefully) the right end - really cool to have someone who
worked on the code around. It should be a big benefit in the discussions.
>
> Now, trying to backtrack a few things. I know that Tops-10 and TOPS-20 used the same
codebase. DECnet routing is something I can only make half a comment on. I'm pretty
sure I read somewhere about the end-node only stuff, and yes, it was also related to the
DTE. Basically, parts of the whole DECnet stack is actually offloaded to the PDP-11, and
not really done on the PDP-10 to start with. But I'm sure you can correct me on that
one. But this also relates to the comments below about KL and ethernet...
>
> Now, on a KS, TOPS-20 never got beyond V4. Any later TOPS-20 development never came
to the KS. That includes DECnet phase IV. So, a KS never supported DECnet over ethernet to
start with. I remember having a discussion with MRC on this many years ago. He did manage
to get DECnet phase IV up and running on a KS, and it was some kind of project supported
from DEC, but it was never productified. I'm also not sure if KS ever supported DECnet
phase III, but maybe it did over serial lines or something. There is no DTE on a KS, so
this does feel somewhat speculative to start with. I certainly used KS a lot, but mostly
with Tops-10, ANF-10 and no other networking...
>
> Ethernet on a KL is not done through the DTE. There was/is an ethernet adapter for
the KL, called the NIA-20, which was installed in the same cabinet where the massbuses
were. And installing the NIA-20 removed two massbuses from the system. There was also the
CI-20, which was similar, in that it also took out two massbuses, and I think was also
installed in that area.
>
> Johnny
>
>> On 2019-03-10 17:25, Vern Brownell wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I?m not sure if this will help. I am the original author of much of
>> DECnet for TOPS-10 and Tops-20. The code base is the same for both
>> OSes, written in Macro, and it was called internally DECnet-36. It
>> was developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it was
>> restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full routing
>> node. It supported KL and KS machines. Real KL?s were only shipped
>> with PDP-11?s as front ends using an adapter called the DTE - so
>> that?s how they where connected to Ethernet. KS?s had an UNIBUS
>> adapter, so I could talk directly to NI adapters. So even though a KL
>> was a full DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an
>> end-node, since it?s only connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was through
>> an -11. I would imagine that you could configure a KS with multiple NIs.
>>
>> At least that?s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
>>
>> Have fun!
>>
>> Vern
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net
>>> <mailto:supratim at riseup.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>> As far as I am aware, it was never supported to have more than one
>>>> NIA-20 on a KL10.
>>>> Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it would
>>>> be of limited use, had it even been supported.
>>>> (Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in
>>>> case the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two
>>>> separate ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if
>>>> the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power down
>>>> the machine anyhow.)
>>>
>>> Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC is
>>> supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets
>>> isolated if I can; two NICs help.
>>>
>>>> I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any have a guest account.
>>>> Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside
TOPS-20.
>>>
>>> Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below,
>>> curious about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up
>>> now, working through tips for the basics.
>>>
>>>> But it's a good question if there is any TOPS-20 machine on HECnet
>>>> with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to
>>>> just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
>>>> I don't have any myself.
>>>> Johnny
>>>>> On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
>>>>> Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie questions,
>>>>> surely:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It
>>>>> appears it was at the least added to the NetBSD target by Olaf
>>>>> 'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky,
going by
>>>>> https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for
>>>>> example, something like
>>>>>
>>>>> # DECnet adapter
>>>>> devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
>>>>> enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY # IP adapter devdef ni1 1500 ni20
>>>>> dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on
>>>>> which I could have an account to look around?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Supratim
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
>>> -
>>> Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style Ain't got no gal to make
you
>>> smile Don't worry, be happy
>>> - Bobby McFerrin
>>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
> || on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
8:25 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
I've been using twenex to fill in the missing bits from MDL documentation. I've
been building a new interpreter for it under VMS - not interested in the compiler, at
least not yet.
Version 105 running on twenex has issues with error handling - it crashes out whenever
there is one. I thought an instance of panda tops-20 running locally would (a) work or (b)
enable me to fix it having full control over the machine. I'm now at (b).
I know MUD has little to do with MDL (the language infocom used for its successful
interactive fiction era - Zork etc..) but it now appears that the link in my mind to
Tops-20 is a little wrong.
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Johnny Billquist
Sent: 10 March 2019 18:52
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
I'm not sure what you are referring to here...
Not to mention that MUD have nothing to do with MDL.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 19:23, Keith Halewood wrote:
And would you believe it!?!?!
MDL (muddle - typed Lisp-like language) has runtime fixup issues like on Twenex. Argh!
They probably all derive from the panda distribution too.
> On 10 Mar 2019, at 17:30, Keith Halewood <Keith.Halewood at pitbulluk.org>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've just got the klh10-2 system (mentioned
http://ancientbits.blogspot.com/2013/05/ten-over-pi.html) running on a debian box
connected to networking via a tap interface. I've 'installed' the panda
distribution of tops-20 and got its tcp/ip and decnet services running (but not
autostarting at the moment). You can hecnet to 29.108 to see the default message. I
haven't set up any users yet. My only memory of tops-20 is connecting over Janet to
Essex to play MUD which was quite a while ago.
>
> Keith
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On
> Behalf Of Johnny Billquist
> Sent: 10 March 2019 16:58
> To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
> Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
>
> Vern, your memory is either not fully up to date, or else you've
> developed a few memory errors over the years. :-)
>
> Anyway, to start from (hopefully) the right end - really cool to have someone who
worked on the code around. It should be a big benefit in the discussions.
>
> Now, trying to backtrack a few things. I know that Tops-10 and TOPS-20 used the same
codebase. DECnet routing is something I can only make half a comment on. I'm pretty
sure I read somewhere about the end-node only stuff, and yes, it was also related to the
DTE. Basically, parts of the whole DECnet stack is actually offloaded to the PDP-11, and
not really done on the PDP-10 to start with. But I'm sure you can correct me on that
one. But this also relates to the comments below about KL and ethernet...
>
> Now, on a KS, TOPS-20 never got beyond V4. Any later TOPS-20 development never came
to the KS. That includes DECnet phase IV. So, a KS never supported DECnet over ethernet to
start with. I remember having a discussion with MRC on this many years ago. He did manage
to get DECnet phase IV up and running on a KS, and it was some kind of project supported
from DEC, but it was never productified. I'm also not sure if KS ever supported DECnet
phase III, but maybe it did over serial lines or something. There is no DTE on a KS, so
this does feel somewhat speculative to start with. I certainly used KS a lot, but mostly
with Tops-10, ANF-10 and no other networking...
>
> Ethernet on a KL is not done through the DTE. There was/is an ethernet adapter for
the KL, called the NIA-20, which was installed in the same cabinet where the massbuses
were. And installing the NIA-20 removed two massbuses from the system. There was also the
CI-20, which was similar, in that it also took out two massbuses, and I think was also
installed in that area.
>
> Johnny
>
>> On 2019-03-10 17:25, Vern Brownell wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I?m not sure if this will help. I am the original author of much of
>> DECnet for TOPS-10 and Tops-20. The code base is the same for both
>> OSes, written in Macro, and it was called internally DECnet-36. It
>> was developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it was
>> restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full routing
>> node. It supported KL and KS machines. Real KL?s were only shipped
>> with PDP-11?s as front ends using an adapter called the DTE - so
>> that?s how they where connected to Ethernet. KS?s had an UNIBUS
>> adapter, so I could talk directly to NI adapters. So even though a
>> KL was a full DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an
>> end-node, since it?s only connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was
>> through an -11. I would imagine that you could configure a KS with multiple
NIs.
>>
>> At least that?s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
>>
>> Have fun!
>>
>> Vern
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net
>>> <mailto:supratim at riseup.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>> As far as I am aware, it was never supported to have more than one
>>>> NIA-20 on a KL10.
>>>> Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it
>>>> would be of limited use, had it even been supported.
>>>> (Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in
>>>> case the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two
>>>> separate ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if
>>>> the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power
>>>> down the machine anyhow.)
>>>
>>> Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC
>>> is supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets
>>> isolated if I can; two NICs help.
>>>
>>>> I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any have a guest account.
>>>> Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside
TOPS-20.
>>>
>>> Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below,
>>> curious about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up
>>> now, working through tips for the basics.
>>>
>>>> But it's a good question if there is any TOPS-20 machine on HECnet
>>>> with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to
>>>> just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
>>>> I don't have any myself.
>>>> Johnny
>>>>> On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
>>>>> Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie questions,
>>>>> surely:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2?
>>>>> (It appears it was at the least added to the NetBSD target by
>>>>> Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky,
>>>>> going by
>>>>> https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for
>>>>> example, something like
>>>>>
>>>>> # DECnet adapter
>>>>> devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
>>>>> enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY # IP adapter devdef ni1 1500 ni20
>>>>> dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on
>>>>> which I could have an account to look around?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Supratim
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
>>> -
>>> Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style Ain't got no gal to make
you
>>> smile Don't worry, be happy
>>> - Bobby McFerrin
>>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
> || on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
10:32 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
Running down memory lane here... :-)
MDL was a language used at MIT for AI work. ZORK was originally written
in MDL. However, when the creators started Infocom, and made ZORK
available on small computers, MDL was not suitable, so it was totally
written in a new language Infocom developed, called ZIL. ZIL ran on a
virtual machine called the Z machine.
ZIL stood (if I remember correctly) for Zork Implementation Language.
It was inspired by MDL, but was not the same.
Ah... Joy...
Anyway, it would be very cool if you actually could get MDL running
under VMS.
As for Essex MUD, I think it was written in Bliss, but I might be
remembering wrong. It was written on Tops-10, but it certainly also did
run on TOPS-20.
+++++++snip+++++++
@run gam:mud
ESSEX UNIVERSITY: Multi-User Dungeon
This Mud created: 3rd November 1984 at 11:09:08
Welcome! By what name shall I call you?
*Johnny
Creating new persona
What sex do you wish to be?
*male
OK
Hello, Johnny!
Narrow road between lands.
You are stood on a narrow road between The Land and whence you came.
To the north and south are the small foothills of a pair of majestic
mountains, with a large wall running round. To the west the road
continues, where in the distance you can see a thatched cottage opposite
an ancient cemetery. The way out is to the east, where a shroud of
mist covers the secret pass by which you entered The Land.
*A playful rabbit snuffles round your feet.
*
The Rabbit has just left.
*quit
Duration of game = 37 secs.
Not updating persona.
@i ver
TINA, klh10 at Uppsala University, TOPS-20 Monitor 7(21017)-2
TOPS-20 Command processor 7(4143)-2
Program is MUD
@
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 20:25, Keith Halewood wrote:
I've been using twenex to fill in the missing bits
from MDL documentation. I've been building a new interpreter for it under VMS - not
interested in the compiler, at least not yet.
Version 105 running on twenex has issues with error handling - it crashes out whenever
there is one. I thought an instance of panda tops-20 running locally would (a) work or (b)
enable me to fix it having full control over the machine. I'm now at (b).
I know MUD has little to do with MDL (the language infocom used for its successful
interactive fiction era - Zork etc..) but it now appears that the link in my mind to
Tops-20 is a little wrong.
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Johnny Billquist
Sent: 10 March 2019 18:52
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
I'm not sure what you are referring to here...
Not to mention that MUD have nothing to do with MDL.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 19:23, Keith Halewood wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
And would you believe it!?!?!
MDL (muddle - typed Lisp-like language) has runtime fixup issues like on Twenex. Argh!
They probably all derive from the panda distribution too.
> On 10 Mar 2019, at 17:30, Keith Halewood <Keith.Halewood at pitbulluk.org>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've just got the klh10-2 system (mentioned
http://ancientbits.blogspot.com/2013/05/ten-over-pi.html) running on a debian box
connected to networking via a tap interface. I've 'installed' the panda
distribution of tops-20 and got its tcp/ip and decnet services running (but not
autostarting at the moment). You can hecnet to 29.108 to see the default message. I
haven't set up any users yet. My only memory of tops-20 is connecting over Janet to
Essex to play MUD which was quite a while ago.
>
> Keith
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On
> Behalf Of Johnny Billquist
> Sent: 10 March 2019 16:58
> To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
> Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
>
> Vern, your memory is either not fully up to date, or else you've
> developed a few memory errors over the years. :-)
>
> Anyway, to start from (hopefully) the right end - really cool to have someone who
worked on the code around. It should be a big benefit in the discussions.
>
> Now, trying to backtrack a few things. I know that Tops-10 and TOPS-20 used the same
codebase. DECnet routing is something I can only make half a comment on. I'm pretty
sure I read somewhere about the end-node only stuff, and yes, it was also related to the
DTE. Basically, parts of the whole DECnet stack is actually offloaded to the PDP-11, and
not really done on the PDP-10 to start with. But I'm sure you can correct me on that
one. But this also relates to the comments below about KL and ethernet...
>
> Now, on a KS, TOPS-20 never got beyond V4. Any later TOPS-20 development never came
to the KS. That includes DECnet phase IV. So, a KS never supported DECnet over ethernet to
start with. I remember having a discussion with MRC on this many years ago. He did manage
to get DECnet phase IV up and running on a KS, and it was some kind of project supported
from DEC, but it was never productified. I'm also not sure if KS ever supported DECnet
phase III, but maybe it did over serial lines or something. There is no DTE on a KS, so
this does feel somewhat speculative to start with. I certainly used KS a lot, but mostly
with Tops-10, ANF-10 and no other networking...
>
> Ethernet on a KL is not done through the DTE. There was/is an ethernet adapter for
the KL, called the NIA-20, which was installed in the same cabinet where the massbuses
were. And installing the NIA-20 removed two massbuses from the system. There was also the
CI-20, which was similar, in that it also took out two massbuses, and I think was also
installed in that area.
>
> Johnny
>
>> On 2019-03-10 17:25, Vern Brownell wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I?m not sure if this will help. I am the original author of much of
>> DECnet for TOPS-10 and Tops-20. The code base is the same for both
>> OSes, written in Macro, and it was called internally DECnet-36. It
>> was developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it was
>> restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full routing
>> node. It supported KL and KS machines. Real KL?s were only shipped
>> with PDP-11?s as front ends using an adapter called the DTE - so
>> that?s how they where connected to Ethernet. KS?s had an UNIBUS
>> adapter, so I could talk directly to NI adapters. So even though a
>> KL was a full DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an
>> end-node, since it?s only connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was
>> through an -11. I would imagine that you could configure a KS with multiple
NIs.
>>
>> At least that?s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
>>
>> Have fun!
>>
>> Vern
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net
>>> <mailto:supratim at riseup.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>> As far as I am aware, it was never supported to have more than one
>>>> NIA-20 on a KL10.
>>>> Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it
>>>> would be of limited use, had it even been supported.
>>>> (Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in
>>>> case the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two
>>>> separate ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if
>>>> the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power
>>>> down the machine anyhow.)
>>>
>>> Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC
>>> is supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets
>>> isolated if I can; two NICs help.
>>>
>>>> I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any have a guest account.
>>>> Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside
TOPS-20.
>>>
>>> Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below,
>>> curious about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up
>>> now, working through tips for the basics.
>>>
>>>> But it's a good question if there is any TOPS-20 machine on HECnet
>>>> with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to
>>>> just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
>>>> I don't have any myself.
>>>> Johnny
>>>>> On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
>>>>> Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie questions,
>>>>> surely:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2?
>>>>> (It appears it was at the least added to the NetBSD target by
>>>>> Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory
Smelosky,
>>>>> going by
>>>>> https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for
>>>>> example, something like
>>>>>
>>>>> # DECnet adapter
>>>>> devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
>>>>> enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY # IP adapter devdef ni1 1500 ni20
>>>>> dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on
>>>>> which I could have an account to look around?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> Supratim
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
>>> -
>>> Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style Ain't got no gal to make
you
>>> smile Don't worry, be happy
>>> - Bobby McFerrin
>>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
> || on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
7:41 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
Keith,
Are you sure Essex was running TOPS-20? When I was there, they were running (a heavily
modified) TOPS-10 but this was way before MUD was available . If you look at Quentin?s
blog (https://www.quentin.org.uk/category/retro-computing/
<https://www.quentin.org.uk/category/retro-computing/>), it shows how to build MUD
from scratch and indicates they were still running TOPS-10 as late as 1986.
John.
On Mar 10, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Keith Halewood
<Keith.Halewood at pitbulluk.org> wrote:
Hi,
I've just got the klh10-2 system (mentioned
http://ancientbits.blogspot.com/2013/05/ten-over-pi.html) running on a debian box
connected to networking via a tap interface. I've 'installed' the panda
distribution of tops-20 and got its tcp/ip and decnet services running (but not
autostarting at the moment). You can hecnet to 29.108 to see the default message. I
haven't set up any users yet. My only memory of tops-20 is connecting over Janet to
Essex to play MUD which was quite a while ago.
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Johnny Billquist
Sent: 10 March 2019 16:58
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
Vern, your memory is either not fully up to date, or else you've developed a few
memory errors over the years. :-)
Anyway, to start from (hopefully) the right end - really cool to have someone who worked
on the code around. It should be a big benefit in the discussions.
Now, trying to backtrack a few things. I know that Tops-10 and TOPS-20 used the same
codebase. DECnet routing is something I can only make half a comment on. I'm pretty
sure I read somewhere about the end-node only stuff, and yes, it was also related to the
DTE. Basically, parts of the whole DECnet stack is actually offloaded to the PDP-11, and
not really done on the PDP-10 to start with. But I'm sure you can correct me on that
one. But this also relates to the comments below about KL and ethernet...
Now, on a KS, TOPS-20 never got beyond V4. Any later TOPS-20 development never came to
the KS. That includes DECnet phase IV. So, a KS never supported DECnet over ethernet to
start with. I remember having a discussion with MRC on this many years ago. He did manage
to get DECnet phase IV up and running on a KS, and it was some kind of project supported
from DEC, but it was never productified. I'm also not sure if KS ever supported DECnet
phase III, but maybe it did over serial lines or something. There is no DTE on a KS, so
this does feel somewhat speculative to start with. I certainly used KS a lot, but mostly
with Tops-10, ANF-10 and no other networking...
Ethernet on a KL is not done through the DTE. There was/is an ethernet adapter for the
KL, called the NIA-20, which was installed in the same cabinet where the massbuses were.
And installing the NIA-20 removed two massbuses from the system. There was also the CI-20,
which was similar, in that it also took out two massbuses, and I think was also installed
in that area.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 17:25, Vern Brownell wrote:
Hi folks,
I?m not sure if this will help. I am the original author of much of
DECnet for TOPS-10 and Tops-20. The code base is the same for both
OSes, written in Macro, and it was called internally DECnet-36. It
was developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it was
restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full routing
node. It supported KL and KS machines. Real KL?s were only shipped
with PDP-11?s as front ends using an adapter called the DTE - so
that?s how they where connected to Ethernet. KS?s had an UNIBUS
adapter, so I could talk directly to NI adapters. So even though a KL
was a full DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an
end-node, since it?s only connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was through
an -11. I would imagine that you could configure a KS with multiple NIs.
At least that?s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
Have fun!
Vern
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net
<mailto:supratim at riseup.net>> wrote:
On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
As far as I am aware, it was never supported to
have more than one
NIA-20 on a KL10.
Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it would
be of limited use, had it even been supported.
(Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in
case the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two
separate ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if
the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power down
the machine anyhow.)
Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC is
supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets
isolated if I can; two NICs help.
I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any
have a guest account.
Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside TOPS-20.
Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below,
curious about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up
now, working through tips for the basics.
But it's a good question if there is any
TOPS-20 machine on HECnet
with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to
just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
I don't have any myself.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
> Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie questions,
> surely:
>
> 1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It
> appears it was at the least added to the NetBSD target by Olaf
> 'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by
> https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
>
> 2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for
> example, something like
>
> # DECnet adapter
> devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
> enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY # IP adapter devdef ni1 1500 ni20
> dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
>
> 3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on
> which I could have an account to look around?
>
> Thanks
> Supratim
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style Ain't got no gal to make you
smile Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
8:29 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
Hi John,
You are almost certainly correct and this would have been around 86-87. I don?t recall
using a PPN to login though. To be honest, the only PPN-like thing I remember is my VMS
UIC [210,035] which followed me from my very first account on the computing department?s
VAX11/780.
Keith
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of John
Forecast
Sent: 10 March 2019 18:41
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
Keith,
Are you sure Essex was running TOPS-20? When I was there, they were running (a heavily
modified) TOPS-10 but this was way before MUD was available . If you look at Quentin?s
blog (https://www.quentin.org.uk/category/retro-computing/), it shows how to build MUD
from scratch and indicates they were still running TOPS-10 as late as 1986.
John.
On Mar 10, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Keith Halewood <Keith.Halewood at
pitbulluk.org<mailto:Keith.Halewood at pitbulluk.org>> wrote:
Hi,
I've just got the klh10-2 system (mentioned
http://ancientbits.blogspot.com/2013/05/ten-over-pi.html) running on a debian box
connected to networking via a tap interface. I've 'installed' the panda
distribution of tops-20 and got its tcp/ip and decnet services running (but not
autostarting at the moment). You can hecnet to 29.108 to see the default message. I
haven't set up any users yet. My only memory of tops-20 is connecting over Janet to
Essex to play MUD which was quite a while ago.
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE<mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
[mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist
Sent: 10 March 2019 16:58
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE<mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
Vern, your memory is either not fully up to date, or else you've developed a few
memory errors over the years. :-)
Anyway, to start from (hopefully) the right end - really cool to have someone who worked
on the code around. It should be a big benefit in the discussions.
Now, trying to backtrack a few things. I know that Tops-10 and TOPS-20 used the same
codebase. DECnet routing is something I can only make half a comment on. I'm pretty
sure I read somewhere about the end-node only stuff, and yes, it was also related to the
DTE. Basically, parts of the whole DECnet stack is actually offloaded to the PDP-11, and
not really done on the PDP-10 to start with. But I'm sure you can correct me on that
one. But this also relates to the comments below about KL and ethernet...
Now, on a KS, TOPS-20 never got beyond V4. Any later TOPS-20 development never came to the
KS. That includes DECnet phase IV. So, a KS never supported DECnet over ethernet to start
with. I remember having a discussion with MRC on this many years ago. He did manage to get
DECnet phase IV up and running on a KS, and it was some kind of project supported from
DEC, but it was never productified. I'm also not sure if KS ever supported DECnet
phase III, but maybe it did over serial lines or something. There is no DTE on a KS, so
this does feel somewhat speculative to start with. I certainly used KS a lot, but mostly
with Tops-10, ANF-10 and no other networking...
Ethernet on a KL is not done through the DTE. There was/is an ethernet adapter for the KL,
called the NIA-20, which was installed in the same cabinet where the massbuses were. And
installing the NIA-20 removed two massbuses from the system. There was also the CI-20,
which was similar, in that it also took out two massbuses, and I think was also installed
in that area.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 17:25, Vern Brownell wrote:
Hi folks,
I?m not sure if this will help. I am the original author of much of
DECnet for TOPS-10 and Tops-20. The code base is the same for both
OSes, written in Macro, and it was called internally DECnet-36. It
was developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it was
restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full routing
node. It supported KL and KS machines. Real KL?s were only shipped
with PDP-11?s as front ends using an adapter called the DTE - so
that?s how they where connected to Ethernet. KS?s had an UNIBUS
adapter, so I could talk directly to NI adapters. So even though a KL
was a full DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an
end-node, since it?s only connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was through
an -11. I would imagine that you could configure a KS with multiple NIs.
At least that?s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
Have fun!
Vern
On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net<mailto:supratim
at riseup.net>
<mailto:supratim at riseup.net>> wrote:
On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
As far as I am aware, it was never supported to have more than one
NIA-20 on a KL10.
Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it would
be of limited use, had it even been supported.
(Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in
case the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two
separate ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if
the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power down
the machine anyhow.)
Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC is
supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets
isolated if I can; two NICs help.
I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any have a guest account.
Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside TOPS-20.
Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below,
curious about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up
now, working through tips for the basics.
But it's a good question if there is any TOPS-20 machine on HECnet
with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to
just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
I don't have any myself.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie questions,
surely:
1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It
appears it was at the least added to the NetBSD target by Olaf
'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by
https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for
example, something like
# DECnet adapter
devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY # IP adapter devdef ni1 1500 ni20
dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on
which I could have an account to look around?
Thanks
Supratim
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style Ain't got no gal to make you
smile Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se<mailto:bqt at softjar.se> || Reading murder
books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
8:49 p.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
On node 29.108 (WALACH), there?s a ?guestuser? account with the password ?top20guest?
Keith
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Keith Halewood
Sent: 10 March 2019 19:30
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
Hi John,
You are almost certainly correct and this would have been around 86-87. I don?t recall
using a PPN to login though. To be honest, the only PPN-like thing I remember is my VMS
UIC [210,035] which followed me from my very first account on the computing department?s
VAX11/780.
Keith
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE<mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
[mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of John Forecast
Sent: 10 March 2019 18:41
To: hecnet at update.uu.se<mailto:hecnet at update.uu.se>
Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
Keith,
Are you sure Essex was running TOPS-20? When I was there, they were running (a heavily
modified) TOPS-10 but this was way before MUD was available . If you look at Quentin?s
blog (https://www.quentin.org.uk/category/retro-computing/), it shows how to build MUD
from scratch and indicates they were still running TOPS-10 as late as 1986.
John.
On Mar 10, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Keith Halewood <Keith.Halewood at
pitbulluk.org<mailto:Keith.Halewood at pitbulluk.org>> wrote:
Hi,
I've just got the klh10-2 system (mentioned
http://ancientbits.blogspot.com/2013/05/ten-over-pi.html) running on a debian box
connected to networking via a tap interface. I've 'installed' the panda
distribution of tops-20 and got its tcp/ip and decnet services running (but not
autostarting at the moment). You can hecnet to 29.108 to see the default message. I
haven't set up any users yet. My only memory of tops-20 is connecting over Janet to
Essex to play MUD which was quite a while ago.
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE<mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
[mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist
Sent: 10 March 2019 16:58
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE<mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
Vern, your memory is either not fully up to date, or else you've developed a few
memory errors over the years. :-)
Anyway, to start from (hopefully) the right end - really cool to have someone who worked
on the code around. It should be a big benefit in the discussions.
Now, trying to backtrack a few things. I know that Tops-10 and TOPS-20 used the same
codebase. DECnet routing is something I can only make half a comment on. I'm pretty
sure I read somewhere about the end-node only stuff, and yes, it was also related to the
DTE. Basically, parts of the whole DECnet stack is actually offloaded to the PDP-11, and
not really done on the PDP-10 to start with. But I'm sure you can correct me on that
one. But this also relates to the comments below about KL and ethernet...
Now, on a KS, TOPS-20 never got beyond V4. Any later TOPS-20 development never came to the
KS. That includes DECnet phase IV. So, a KS never supported DECnet over ethernet to start
with. I remember having a discussion with MRC on this many years ago. He did manage to get
DECnet phase IV up and running on a KS, and it was some kind of project supported from
DEC, but it was never productified. I'm also not sure if KS ever supported DECnet
phase III, but maybe it did over serial lines or something. There is no DTE on a KS, so
this does feel somewhat speculative to start with. I certainly used KS a lot, but mostly
with Tops-10, ANF-10 and no other networking...
Ethernet on a KL is not done through the DTE. There was/is an ethernet adapter for the KL,
called the NIA-20, which was installed in the same cabinet where the massbuses were. And
installing the NIA-20 removed two massbuses from the system. There was also the CI-20,
which was similar, in that it also took out two massbuses, and I think was also installed
in that area.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 17:25, Vern Brownell wrote:
Hi folks,
I?m not sure if this will help. I am the original author of much of
DECnet for TOPS-10 and Tops-20. The code base is the same for both
OSes, written in Macro, and it was called internally DECnet-36. It
was developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it was
restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full routing
node. It supported KL and KS machines. Real KL?s were only shipped
with PDP-11?s as front ends using an adapter called the DTE - so
that?s how they where connected to Ethernet. KS?s had an UNIBUS
adapter, so I could talk directly to NI adapters. So even though a KL
was a full DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an
end-node, since it?s only connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was through
an -11. I would imagine that you could configure a KS with multiple NIs.
At least that?s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
Have fun!
Vern
On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal <supratim at riseup.net<mailto:supratim
at riseup.net>
<mailto:supratim at riseup.net>> wrote:
On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
As far as I am aware, it was never supported to have more than one
NIA-20 on a KL10.
Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I suspect it would
be of limited use, had it even been supported.
(Yes, you could have had a second interface for just fallback, in
case the first one broke, but it was rare that you would have two
separate ethernets in the first place, so then it would only be if
the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to power down
the machine anyhow.)
Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only one NIC is
supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets
isolated if I can; two NICs help.
I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any have a guest account.
Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from inside TOPS-20.
Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below,
curious about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda release up
now, working through tips for the basics.
But it's a good question if there is any TOPS-20 machine on HECnet
with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for others to
just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
I don't have any myself.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20. Newbie questions,
surely:
1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that supports VDE2? (It
appears it was at the least added to the NetBSD target by Olaf
'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory Smelosky, going by
https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network adapters, for
example, something like
# DECnet adapter
devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY # IP adapter devdef ni1 1500 ni20
dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on HECnet now on
which I could have an account to look around?
Thanks
Supratim
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style Ain't got no gal to make you
smile Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se<mailto:bqt at softjar.se> || Reading murder
books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
11 Mar
11 Mar
1:08 a.m.
New subject: KLH10 noob questions
^Ecease now ? sounds like I am sending a notice from lawyers every time
I shut it down! :)
On 3/10/19 3:49 PM, Keith Halewood wrote:
On node 29.108 (WALACH), there?s a ?guestuser? account
with the password
?top20guest?
Keith
*From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On
Behalf Of *Keith Halewood
*Sent:* 10 March 2019 19:30
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Subject:* RE: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
Hi John,
You are almost certainly correct and this would have been around 86-87.
I don?t recall using a PPN to login though. To be honest, the only
PPN-like thing I remember is my VMS UIC [210,035] which followed me from
my very first account on the computing department?s VAX11/780.
Keith
*From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
[mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On Behalf Of *John Forecast
*Sent:* 10 March 2019 18:41
*To:* hecnet at update.uu.se <mailto:hecnet at update.uu.se>
*Subject:* Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
Keith,
? ? Are you sure Essex was running TOPS-20? When I was there, they were
running (a heavily modified) TOPS-10 but this was way before MUD was
available . If you look at Quentin?s blog
(https://www.quentin.org.uk/category/retro-computing/), it shows how to
build MUD from scratch and indicates they were still running TOPS-10 as
late as 1986.
? John.
On Mar 10, 2019, at 1:30 PM, Keith Halewood
<Keith.Halewood at pitbulluk.org <mailto:Keith.Halewood at
pitbulluk.org>>
wrote:
Hi,
I've just got the klh10-2 system (mentioned
http://ancientbits.blogspot.com/2013/05/ten-over-pi.html) running on
a debian box connected to networking via a tap interface. I've
'installed' the panda distribution of tops-20 and got its tcp/ip and
decnet services running (but not autostarting at the moment). You
can hecnet to 29.108 to see the default message. I haven't set up
any users yet. My only memory of tops-20 is connecting over Janet to
Essex to play MUD which was quite a while ago.
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
[mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist
Sent: 10 March 2019 16:58
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: [HECnet] KLH10 noob questions
Vern, your memory is either not fully up to date, or else you've
developed a few memory errors over the years. :-)
Anyway, to start from (hopefully) the right end - really cool to
have someone who worked on the code around. It should be a big
benefit in the discussions.
Now, trying to backtrack a few things. I know that Tops-10 and
TOPS-20 used the same codebase. DECnet routing is something I can
only make half a comment on. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere about
the end-node only stuff, and yes, it was also related to the DTE.
Basically, parts of the whole DECnet stack is actually offloaded to
the PDP-11, and not really done on the PDP-10 to start with. But I'm
sure you can correct me on that one. But this also relates to the
comments below about KL and ethernet...
Now, on a KS, TOPS-20 never got beyond V4. Any later TOPS-20
development never came to the KS. That includes DECnet phase IV. So,
a KS never supported DECnet over ethernet to start with. I remember
having a discussion with MRC on this many years ago. He did manage
to get DECnet phase IV up and running on a KS, and it was some kind
of project supported from DEC, but it was never productified. I'm
also not sure if KS ever supported DECnet phase III, but maybe it
did over serial lines or something. There is no DTE on a KS, so this
does feel somewhat speculative to start with. I certainly used KS a
lot, but mostly with Tops-10, ANF-10 and no other networking...
Ethernet on a KL is not done through the DTE. There was/is an
ethernet adapter for the KL, called the NIA-20, which was installed
in the same cabinet where the massbuses were. And installing the
NIA-20 removed two massbuses from the system. There was also the
CI-20, which was similar, in that it also took out two massbuses,
and I think was also installed in that area.
??Johnny
On 2019-03-10 17:25, Vern Brownell wrote:
Hi folks,
I?m not sure if this will help. ?I am the original author of
much of
DECnet for TOPS-10 and Tops-20. ?The code base is the same for both
OSes, written in Macro, and it was called internally DECnet-36. ?It
was developed with full DECnet routing capability and unless it was
restricted in later releases should be able to act as a full
routing
node. ?It supported KL and KS machines. ?Real KL?s were only
shipped
with PDP-11?s as front ends using an adapter called the DTE - so
that?s how they where connected to Ethernet. ?KS?s had an UNIBUS
adapter, so I could talk directly to NI adapters. ?So even
though a KL
was a full DECnet node with routing, it only really acted as an
end-node, since it?s only connection to Ethernet or DDCMP was
through
an -11. ?I would imagine that you could configure a KS with
multiple NIs.
At least that?s how I remember it through 38 years of fog.
Have fun!
Vern
On Mar 10, 2019, at 8:23 AM, Supratim Sanyal
<supratim at riseup.net <mailto:supratim at riseup.net>
<mailto:supratim at riseup.net>> wrote:
On 3/10/19 10:40 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
As far as I am aware, it was never supported to have
more than one
NIA-20 on a KL10.
Also, since I think that TOPS-20 is endnode only, I
suspect it would
be of limited use, had it even been supported.
(Yes, you could have had a second interface for just
fallback, in
case the first one broke, but it was rare that you would
have two
separate ethernets in the first place, so then it would
only be if
the NIA-20 itself broke, but then you'd probably want to
power down
the machine anyhow.)
Very likely true. The original KL10 doc clearly says only
one NIC is
supported. I just try my best to keep my DECnet and IP subnets
isolated if I can; two NICs help.
I know of KLH10s, but I don't know if any have a guest
account.
Although, I'm not sure what you think you would see from
inside TOPS-20.
Never seen or logged into a TOP-20 system ... as you say below,
curious about what it looks like. Anyway, have a Panda
release up
now, working through tips for the basics.
But it's a good question if there is any TOPS-20 machine
on HECnet
with guest account. I guess it could be interesting for
others to
just experience what TOPS-20 looks and feels like.
I don't have any myself.
Johnny
On 2019-03-10 15:28, Supratim Sanyal wrote:
Starting from zero with both KLH10 and TOPS-20.
Newbie questions,
surely:
1) Is there a KLH10 distribution for Linux that
supports VDE2? (It
appears it was at the least added? to the NetBSD
target by Olaf
'Rhialto' Seibert after being reuested by Cory
Smelosky, going by
https://github.com/PDP-10/klh10/issues/2)
2) Is it possible in KLH10 to have two network
adapters, for
example, something like
# DECnet adapter
devdef ni0 564 ni20 dedic=true ifmeth=vde
ifc=/tmp/vde-dnet
enaddr=aa:00:04:00:XX:YY # IP adapter devdef ni1
1500 ni20
dedic=true ifmeth=vde ifc=/tmp/vde-ip
enaddr=12:34:56:aa:bb:cc
3) Are there any KLH10 TOPS-20 systems active on
HECnet now on
which I could have an account to look around?
Thanks
Supratim
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style Ain't got no gal to
make you
smile Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
--
Johnny Billquist ?????????????????|| "I'm on a bus
??????????????????????????????????|| ?on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se <mailto:bqt at softjar.se> ????????????||
?Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ????????????????????|| ?tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
--
Sent from a Compaq CQ61 running Linux Mint Tessa
-
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no style
Ain't got no gal to make you smile
Don't worry, be happy
- Bobby McFerrin
1875
days inactive
1896
days old
34 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
bqt＠softjar.se -
form＠pdp-11.online -
healyzh＠avanthar.com -
hvlems＠zonnet.nl -
john＠forecast.name -
Keith.Halewood＠pitbulluk.org -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
steve＠davidson.net -
supratim＠riseup.net -
tim＠sneddon.id.au -
vern＠brownell.com