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Actually the fun mil-spec VT100 was the Tempest VT100.? Metal case to avoid radiating information into the air and a metal cased VT100 keyboard. Dropped that in my lap only ONCE at the FBI facility I was Field Service for. Ugh. bill On 4/23/20 7:21 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Oh how quickly people forget. :-) > > The correct quote is: > If your computer don't have 36 bits, you are not playing with a full > DEC. > > The "mil-spec" VT100 was probably the RT100: > https://vt100.net/docs/tp83/chapter8.html (oh how I hate the > "everything should be using https"...) > > ? Johnny > > On 2020-04-24 00:15, Thomas DeBellis wrote: >> Sir, I stand *corrected* and do humbly admit my errors.? I didn't >> see anything Orange on the mac.io website, so I just assumed...? I >> didn't go to the Facebook site because I won't have a thing to do >> with their policies, stated or covert. >> >> A memory surfaced and I realized that I was also completely wrong >> about the 2020's networking capabilities, too.? In 1979, DEC's >> Federal Systems group had a 2020 on the ARPAnet and I used it to >> send email to some of my pals at MIT LCS when I working 2nd and 3rd >> shift.? So the hardware existed to communicate with an IMP and MIT >> used it implement TCP/IP on ITS.? This is simulated by the KLH10 >> 2020 implementation and that's how ITS communicates today. >> >> Federal Systems was a real hike from manufacturing in Marlboro where >> I used to hang out; three buildings away.? It was also notable for >> having mil-spec VT100's.? Instead of plastic, they were made out of >> very thick metal, I think maybe machined aluminum.? The cables where >> sheathed in metal and the connectors were substantially enlarged and >> strengthened.? The display glass also had a dense metal screen in >> front of it. They really looked like they could withstand a hand >> grenade and weighed a ton... Well that's what I thought at the time, >> another alternative that didn't occur to me until decades later was >> that all this just could have been RF shielding. >> >> I had left DEC and was at Columbia before the Internet role out, so >> I don't know whether Tops-20 4.1, the last official release for the >> 2020, supported TCP/IP.? I just can't remember, darn it...? I know >> that Tops-20 5.0 supported TCP/IP AND that MRC was able to port 5.0 >> to the 2020.? LingLing was on the Internet from time to time.? That >> must have been some hack; by late version 3, it was seen that the >> monitor was running out of address space and when the hardware folks >> suggested eliminating the symbol table, the monitor folks flipped as >> debugging would have been effectively hatcheted. >> >> The solution for 4.1 was one of the finest hacks I have ever heard >> of; while the 2020 doesn't support extended addressing, it does >> support multiple address spaces, so what they did was move all the >> symbols into a separate address space.? This was called 'hiding' >> symbols and I thought it was great because it made them harder to >> smash.? However, all of that went out the window with 5.0, which >> fully supported extended addressing. >> >> DEC completely walked away from the 2020 and symbol hiding for the >> Tops-20 5.0 monitor.? In fact, I remember an SPR response scolding >> an acquaintance of mine for trying to turn symbol hiding back on in >> 5.0.? Basically, it was a corporate, 'Fuggetaboutit'.? Pity; for >> user programs, Tenex and Tops-20 had something called IDDT >> (Invisible DDT) which kept the symbols in a completely different >> process space, effectively making them impossible to smash, no >> matter how sick your program got. Symbol hiding was cool.? Not that >> I'm going to try figure out how to turn it back on... >> >> You know, I have been out to Pittsburgh a few times.? In the 1980's, >> Columbia flew me out there so that I could learn about CMU's >> modifications to LPTSPL to support the nearly entirely awesome Xerox >> 9700.? I was out there again about a year ago for a conference.? >> Still, that's a real hike...? My relatives live in near >> Elizabethtown, not quite spitting distance from three mile island >> (!!), so that's another four hours to New Kensington after they're >> done with me.? Ouch...? Oh well, never say 'never'... >> >> That's some pretty good swag you have by the way; minor suggestion, >> in addition to the anti-VAXer T-shirt, you might want to have >> another one that says the somewhat subtle, "If it doesn't have 36 >> Bits, it isn't a Digital computer".? I did know some people who were >> so anti-VAX that they positively would froth at the mouth.? I could >> understand the frothing, given what happened, but still, one prefers >> not wear one's froth on their sleeve.? It would have been a lot >> better for everybody had there been more and better communication >> and less NIH. >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> On 4/23/20 12:20 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> On 4/22/20 11:42 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote: >>>> >>>> Oh, I'm in Looooong Island, South Shore. >>> ?? Ahhh, New Yawwwk.? You should head out this way at some point. >>> >>>> I actually have relatives not far from you in PA, but I hadn't gotten >>>> around to noodging you yet for the distinct lack of 20's in your >>>> collection.? I mean, you have a 4341 yet no 20?? Tisk, tisk... >>> ?? You sir are misinformed.? There are three KS10s here. >>> >>>> Well, I'm pulling your leg a bit; a 20 is a seriously heavy lift.? >>>> A KL >>>> has three purposes in life: 1) Generate Heat, 2) Suck Power, 3) Run >>>> winning code.? A 2020 uses far less power, but doesn't have extended >>>> addressing, so it is stuck at Tops-20 4.1, which leaves out a lot of >>>> DECnet (and ARPAnet) stuff.? Apparently, you can squeeze 5.0 in; >>>> MRC did >>>> this, but that was MRC.? Tops-20 is at version 7.0 now. >>> ?? Indeed. >>> >>>> And both of them are seriously cranky beasts that needed care and >>>> feeding from trained service personnel; wire wrap and all that >>>> (yech). >>>> Remember, it's not a mainframe unless you can't fit it in your >>>> house and >>>> have to take out a second mortgage to pay for the electricity and >>>> tons >>>> (60 for a 20) of air conditioning. >>> ?? We're no strangers to cranky around here. ;) >>> >>>> So Paul Allen had a KL based 20, which is now in the the Living >>>> Computer >>>> museum.? But that cost was apparently less than a rounding error >>>> compared to what he was worth.? A mere monetary blip, as it were. >>> ?? Yep. >>> >>> ?????????? -Dave >>> > >