No real arguments on any of the bits, and I haven't looked at the actual
implementation yet.
However, I doubt RSX buffers the send. It seldom does anything that
takes extra resources. One thought would be that the accept don't
return/finish until the ack for the CC comes back.
If you want to, you can play with my small test programs in C. They
don't require any special privileges or anything, and are easy to change
around if you want to examine specifics as they translate to network
messages.
Johnny
On 2024-06-16 22:02, Paul Koning wrote:
There's a difference between the API any given
DECnet implementation offers, and the network protocol. Also, the DECnet architecture
spec describes its operation through a model API, though that API is merely for
information and not required.
PyDECnet approximately implements the model API, with the exception of its polling
approach.
In the NSP architecture there is a description of the connection states, and what can be
sent or done in each state. For example, when you senda connect initiate (as the CONNECT
call you mentioned does) the initial state is CI, and when the other side ACKs the CI
message the state becomes CD ("connect delivered"). At this point, data cannot
be sent yet.
When the receiving end does an ACCEPT, a Connect Confirm message is sent and the state at
that end becomes CC. Once the Confirm message is delivered to the originator, that side
goes into RUN state, it sends an ACK (possibly piggybacked) and can now send data. The
receiving end, when it sees the ACK or data, also goes to RUN state, and can then send
data.
All that is in the NSP spec. Note in particular that the receiving endcan't send
data while in CC state.
Given that RSX allows sending data immediately after the ACCEPT call, the implication is
that it's buffering those data requests until the transition to RUN, at which point
it's allowed to send them. That's a fine implementation and perhaps I should
change PyDECnet to do the same, but currently it doesn't do that; instead it follows
the NSP model (Phase IV NSPspec, page 37).
BTW, the CC doesn't last an indeterminate period. The NSP spec says the originator
must ACK the connect confirm message. It can do that with adata message or a separate
ACK, but either way the CC state will transition to RUN as soon as that answer is
delivered to the far end. So the CCstate is very short lived, just long enough for an ACK
round trip (unless a retransmit is needed).
The reason Phase II doesn't have a CC state is that it assumes a reliable network,
which Phase III and beyond assume a datagram network layer. So Phase II has no need for
retransmits (at the NSP level), nor timeouts,nor any states that deal with the
possibiility of packet loss.
paul
On Jun 16, 2024, at 3:33 PM, Johnny Billquist
<bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
I'm trying to understand this, but am sortof failing, Paul.
As a sortof sidetrack, when I saw the start of this topic, I went and worked over an API
I have for this from PDP-11 C in RSX, so I can easily write and test communicating with
DECnet tasks under RSX.
Under RSX, the connecting side does a CONNECT call, which includes both the sending of
data for the connect, as well as receiving the data fromthe accept. So clearly, when this
call finishes, the connection have been fully established, since the accept data is
returned by the call.
The server side, on the other hand is receiving a connection request, and if it does an
ACCEPT of it, which includes sending some data carried with the accept, you then are clear
to send or receive data right away. There is no additional ACK information passed in any
way after that. And Ican't see how it would be needed, either. You know the other side
sent the connect, so as soon as you have accepted, the connection is up and available.
It would be close to unusable if the receiving side could not send data for an
indeterminate period after accepting a connection, unless the other side sends something
first.
Happy to help if there is something you'd want to test against RSX.
Johnny
On 2024-06-16 20:08, Paul Koning wrote:
On Jun
15, 2024, at 5:50 PM, Keith Halewood <Keith.Halewood(a)pitbulluk.org
<mailto:Keith.Halewood@pitbulluk.org>> wrote:
Hi,
I think there’s a bug in in decnet/nsp.py, line 1173
A phase 3 accept is setting its state toself.cc <http://self.cc/>which doesn’t seem
to exist. If I change that to self.run, like the state setting for phase 2 accept, I can
then send a message after accepting the connection without ‘WrongState’ being thrown.
This is pydecnet 1.1-648.
Keith
More on this: there's an assymetry in the 3-way handshake: the
initiating side can start sending data as soon as it receives the accept (that data
doubles as the confirm ack). But the responding side has to wait for the connect confirm
to be acknowledged before sending any data. This asymmetry makes some sense because most
applications have the initiating side sending the first data message. But if you have an
application where the responding side sends the first data message you have to wait for
the ack. The simplest way is to catch the WrongState error and retry after a brief
pause.
paul
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--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol