- HECnet - lists @ Update

by system＠TMESIS.COM

"Bob Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> writes: the stupid CONFIGURE brain damage. I saw that - a 500 block DCL script is kinda scary, but at least it doesn't crash. Personally, I'm happy with vi on unix and EDT on VMS. EDT (and EVE) are really only useful to me if I have a real VTxxx keyboard. My right hand knows all the keypad sequences, and can't be reprogrammed for any PC key layout. Stop using PeeCee keyboards... they're generally horrible to begin with and then, there's the issue of the odd layout. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

11 years, 1 month

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OVMS AXP emacs?

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On May 30, 2014, at 3:22 PM, Bob Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: There's always TECO. How do you think I've been fixing the emacs problems??? :-) It's a bit tedious, though, and I find that I've forgotten a lot of TECO commands. I used to be really good at it, but that was around 1978... Same here. There are TECO manuals on Bitsavers, of course. A couple of years ago I implemented TECO in Python. I could post that if there is interest... paul

11 years, 1 month

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OVMS AXP emacs?

by b4＠gewt.net

On Fri, 30 May 2014, Bob Armstrong wrote: vi is, well, evil. The only command I know is :quit! (gotta have the bang!) for the few times I accidentally get into it :-) You mean eVIl. Personally...I often stick with pico/nano as a true heretic. Emacs is just way too heavyweigh with unnecessary features. You mean "gnu emacs..." and with that I absolutely agree, but I don't know any other emacs alternative that's been ported to VMS. Bob -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

11 years, 1 month

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OVMS AXP emacs?

by bob＠jfcl.com

There's always TECO. How do you think I've been fixing the emacs problems??? :-) It's a bit tedious, though, and I find that I've forgotten a lot of TECO commands. I used to be really good at it, but that was around 1978... Bob

11 years, 1 month

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OVMS AXP emacs?

by jg＠jordi.guillaumes.name

El 30/05/2014, a les 21.16, <Paul_Koning at Dell.com> <Paul_Koning at Dell.com> va escriure: On May 30, 2014, at 3:08 PM, Bob Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: ... EDT (and EVE) are really only useful to me if I have a real VTxxx keyboard. My right hand knows all the keypad sequences, and can't be reprogrammed for any PC key layout. vi is, well, evil. The only command I know is :quit! (gotta have the bang!) for the few times I accidentally get into it :-) There s always TECO. Or SUMSLP. Batch editing rules! Jordi Guillaumes i Pons jg at jordi.guillaumes.name HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES

11 years, 1 month

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OVMS AXP emacs?

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On May 30, 2014, at 3:08 PM, Bob Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote: ... EDT (and EVE) are really only useful to me if I have a real VTxxx keyboard. My right hand knows all the keypad sequences, and can't be reprogrammed for any PC key layout. vi is, well, evil. The only command I know is :quit! (gotta have the bang!) for the few times I accidentally get into it :-) There s always TECO. paul

11 years, 1 month

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OVMS AXP emacs?

by bob＠jfcl.com

Doesn't MicroEMACS run under VMS? Dunno - I have never used that version. I use JOVE on a PDP-11 (under 2.11bsd), but that's never been ported to VMS AFAIK. I have emacs 18.51 running just fine on VAX VMS; I didn't think Alpha would be that hard! Hmm - maybe I should try to find the sources for that version. Thanks, Bob

11 years, 1 month

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OVMS AXP emacs?

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 05/30/2014 03:08 PM, Bob Armstrong wrote: Emacs is just way too heavyweigh with unnecessary features. You mean "gnu emacs..." and with that I absolutely agree, but I don't know any other emacs alternative that's been ported to VMS. Doesn't MicroEMACS run under VMS? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

11 years, 1 month

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OVMS AXP emacs?

by bob＠jfcl.com

the stupid CONFIGURE brain damage. I saw that - a 500 block DCL script is kinda scary, but at least it doesn't crash. Personally, I'm happy with vi on unix and EDT on VMS. EDT (and EVE) are really only useful to me if I have a real VTxxx keyboard. My right hand knows all the keypad sequences, and can't be reprogrammed for any PC key layout. vi is, well, evil. The only command I know is :quit! (gotta have the bang!) for the few times I accidentally get into it :-) Emacs is just way too heavyweigh with unnecessary features. You mean "gnu emacs..." and with that I absolutely agree, but I don't know any other emacs alternative that's been ported to VMS. Bob

11 years, 1 month

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OVMS AXP emacs?

by system＠TMESIS.COM

"Bob Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com> writes: I've been trying for a day now to build the emacs21_2 that's on the FREEWARE v8 CD. It's a joke - I don't think it ever worked on VMS. The MMS files don't work with MMS anymore - you must use MMK. There's some elisp file called p4 missing - don't know what that's for. The termcap doesn't contain ANY vtxxx terminals (talk about a major bummer!). The image is linked with /TRACEBACK and therefore can't be installed privileged (which is exactly what their setup script does). I persevered and fixed all those, but now emacs crashes with an ACCVIO whenever I try to read a file. That's gonna limit its usefulness as a text editor J I really don't want to debug this thing. Please! Thanks, Bob FYI, 19.28 (IIRC) was the last Emacs that would build on OpenVMS. I was tasked, at one time, to try porting 21.something but I gave up because of the stupid CONFIGURE brain damage. Newer efforts of the GNV group might offer an environment that's better suited for building later emacs. However, if the open source community would cease with the "all-the-world's-a-unix" mentality, things such as emacs might stand a chance on VMS. Personally, I'm happy with vi on unix and EDT on VMS. Emacs is just way too heavyweigh with unnecessary features. -- VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

11 years, 1 month

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OVMS AXP emacs?

by bob＠jfcl.com

Nobody has emacs running on an Alpha on HECnet?? I ve been trying for a day now to build the emacs21_2 that s on the FREEWARE v8 CD. It s a joke I don t think it ever worked on VMS. The MMS files don t work with MMS anymore you must use MMK. There s some elisp file called p4 missing don t know what that s for. The termcap doesn t contain ANY vtxxx terminals (talk about a major bummer!). The image is linked with /TRACEBACK and therefore can t be installed privileged (which is exactly what their setup script does). I persevered and fixed all those, but now emacs crashes with an ACCVIO whenever I try to read a file. That s gonna limit its usefulness as a text editor J I really don t want to debug this thing. Please! Thanks, Bob From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Bob Armstrong Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2014 8:20 PM To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] OVMS AXP emacs? Does anybody have a ready to run copy of emacs for the Alpha and OVMS 8.3 that I could copy? Building it can be a struggle that I d rather skip right now. FWIW, I need the plain old fashioned terminal, NOT DECwindows, version. Thanks, Bob

11 years, 1 month

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Multinet over TCP -- protocol and observations

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

With help from Bob Armstrong and Peter Lothberg, I have a reverse engineered Python implementation of the Multinet tunnel over TCP working now. Peter forwarded an old HECnet message that roughly describes the protocol, but some details were missing and some were not quite accurate. For the benefit of anyone else who wants to implement this, here is the protocol description plus some implementation notes. paul Multinet protocol for DECnet A Multinet tunnel runs the Point to Point mode of the DECnet protocol. Traffic may be carried over a TCP connection, or over UDP packets. The operation is nearly the same for both. In TCP mode, one end is designated the connecting end and the other the listening end. In UDP mode, operation is symmetric since there are no connections. In either case, the port number may be configured; the default is 700. Multinet puts a 4 byte header on each DECnet packet. For TCP, the first two bytes are the DECnet packet length, little endian. The TCP data stream consists of these packets with headers. For UDP, the first two byte are a sequence number, little endian. The next two bytes appear to be unused and were observed to contain zero. Each DECnet packet, with its header, is sent as a separate UDP packet. Some Multinet implementations can be configured to check the sequence number in UDP mode; it is not clear how this works (in particular, how it is initialized). Linux does not, and things seem to work fine without this extra check. Multinet tunneling does not obey many of the requirements that the DECnet Routing architecture imposes on point to point datalinks. The most obvious issue is that routing layer point to point init messages (control packet, type code 0) may appear unexpectedly. This happens even in TCP mode where it might be expected that the TCP connection would be closed and re-established before the init message. A conforming DECnet implementation reacts to such an unexpected init message by restarting the circuit, sending an init message, and expecting one in return. Multinet does not expect this, and if the peer operates according to the standard, initialization may require many cycles before it finally succeeds. As a workaround, the response to an unexpected init should be to set the routing initialization sublayer state machine to the DS state (without restarting the TCP connection, if any), and processing the unexpected init message as if it had been received in that state. In testing with a DECnet/VMS system, it was observed to send an Init message requesting verification even though verification was not called for in the circuit parameters. It may be that this was due to the routing architecture requirement to use verification in areas other than area 1. A null verification message (empty FCNVAL field) was accepted by the VMS system in that test.

11 years, 1 month

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Cisco Tunnel Update

by b4＠gewt.net

On Fri, 30 May 2014, Brian Hechinger wrote: On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 12:28:59PM -0400, Cory Smelosky wrote: Oh, and that Cory guy. His tunnel is still broken. *shakes fist at Cory* Hey! I've been busy! And quite frankly I have no idea what the hell is wrong. Can you get me ssh access to your router so I can poke around and maybe see what's going on? Which one? The Cisco or the edge BSD box? The Cisco is old enough to only be telnet...;) -brian -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

11 years, 1 month

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SIMH on OSX (IDLE)

by wonko＠4amlunch.net

On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 05:12:38PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2014-05-30 17:10, Brian Hechinger wrote: On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 09:49:26AM -0400, Cory Smelosky wrote: On Sun, 25 May 2014, Brian Hechinger wrote: Well, it won't boot on an 11/23 or 11/23+. It also won't initially offer to do AUTOCONFIGURE. It seems an inbetween baseline executive was made before distribution. So as long as I look to emulate a /70 I should be fine? Yes. Ok, cool. The 11/70 normally came in a configuration that requires 3-phase. However, the actual machine do not need it, it's just a load balancing thing... Ah, mine didn't. It was pure 110v. Maybe it's a cabinet thing? -brian

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SIMH on OSX (IDLE)

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2014-05-30 17:10, Brian Hechinger wrote: On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 09:49:26AM -0400, Cory Smelosky wrote: On Sun, 25 May 2014, Brian Hechinger wrote: Well, it won't boot on an 11/23 or 11/23+. It also won't initially offer to do AUTOCONFIGURE. It seems an inbetween baseline executive was made before distribution. So as long as I look to emulate a /70 I should be fine? Yes. Now that I have space, I should. :) Enough for an 11/70? ;) Yes actually. :) Cool! You've got three-phase service right? :D What do I need three-phase for? And no, no I don't. The 11/70 normally came in a configuration that requires 3-phase. However, the actual machine do not need it, it's just a load balancing thing... Johnny

11 years, 1 month

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Cisco Tunnel Update

by wonko＠4amlunch.net

On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 12:28:59PM -0400, Cory Smelosky wrote: Oh, and that Cory guy. His tunnel is still broken. *shakes fist at Cory* Hey! I've been busy! And quite frankly I have no idea what the hell is wrong. Can you get me ssh access to your router so I can poke around and maybe see what's going on? -brian

11 years, 1 month

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SIMH on OSX (IDLE)

by wonko＠4amlunch.net

On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 09:49:26AM -0400, Cory Smelosky wrote: On Sun, 25 May 2014, Brian Hechinger wrote: Understandable. It's a lot simpler than IDLE. IDLE could be interesting though. I might still give it a go anyway. :) Well, it won't boot on an 11/23 or 11/23+. It also won't initially offer to do AUTOCONFIGURE. It seems an inbetween baseline executive was made before distribution. So as long as I look to emulate a /70 I should be fine? Now that I have space, I should. :) Enough for an 11/70? ;) Yes actually. :) Cool! You've got three-phase service right? :D What do I need three-phase for? And no, no I don't. -brian

11 years, 1 month

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"Dropped by adjacent node" ....

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2014-05-30 15:18, Bob Armstrong wrote: The ethernet bridge would, in my eyes be preferred to two or three reliable PTP links. In your eyes the bridge program between two nodes, communicating via psilo, would be preferred to one reliable PtP link between the same two nodes? No. Direct links are almost always preferrable. But you scenario would be equally well solved using 3,4,5 as costs. Using 10,20,30 makes several hops over ptp links be preferred over the (one or) two hops on the bridge. I'd say that the one or two hops on the bridge is better than two ptp links, and might be as good as one hop on a ptp link as well. Johnny

11 years, 1 month

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"Dropped by adjacent node" ....

by bob＠jfcl.com

The ethernet bridge would, in my eyes be preferred to two or three reliable PTP links. In your eyes the bridge program between two nodes, communicating via psilo, would be preferred to one reliable PtP link between the same two nodes? Bob

11 years, 1 month

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RT-11 DECnet?

by hvlems＠zonnet.nl

How much work would a limited phase 4 endnode implementation be? Limited : FAL only, no hone, cterm etc. Verzonden vanaf mijn BlackBerry 10-smartphone. Origineel bericht Van: Steve Davidson Verzonden: vrijdag 30 mei 2014 12:48 Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Onderwerp: RE: [HECnet] RT-11 DECnet? DECnet-11/RT-11 came in tape and RX50 distributions. The last version was Phase-III. Phase-IV was never produced. It really requires the XM (and variants) monitor and it is BIG... And SLOW... And... -Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2014 22:12 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] RT-11 DECnet? Hello, Now that I've gotten RT-11 rolling on the 11/23...is there any way to get DECnet rolling on it? I can't find a tape image anywhere. :( If I'm going to get stuff copied to this...it's going to help to have higher than 9600baud going for me. ;) I suppose I could install the TCP/IP stuff but I've never actually done that. Would TSX+ run on an 11/23? Once my cleaning tapes arrive I'm going to install RSTS/E from one of my DDS-3 tapes via SCSI drive. ;) (Here's hoping the bootstrap on the SCSI controller does TMSCP bootstrap!) -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

11 years, 1 month

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RT-11 DECnet?

by jeep＠scshome.net

DECnet-11/RT-11 came in tape and RX50 distributions. The last version was Phase-III. Phase-IV was never produced. It really requires the XM (and variants) monitor and it is BIG... And SLOW... And... -Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Cory Smelosky Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2014 22:12 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: [HECnet] RT-11 DECnet? Hello, Now that I've gotten RT-11 rolling on the 11/23...is there any way to get DECnet rolling on it? I can't find a tape image anywhere. :( If I'm going to get stuff copied to this...it's going to help to have higher than 9600baud going for me. ;) I suppose I could install the TCP/IP stuff but I've never actually done that. Would TSX+ run on an 11/23? Once my cleaning tapes arrive I'm going to install RSTS/E from one of my DDS-3 tapes via SCSI drive. ;) (Here's hoping the bootstrap on the SCSI controller does TMSCP bootstrap!) -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

11 years, 1 month

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Parallel computing using DECnet

by jeep＠scshome.net

The DEC calling standards and the design of DECnet do not limit us to using only one language. Each system could use what ever is available on that system (and what the user knows how to program in) and use DECnet objects to pass information back and forth. A simple protocol (if you will) could be spec'd out and implemented for any of the languages. A common language could be used for the "glue". MACRO-11 might be fun - it could easily manage the differences between BASIC and FORTRAN (and others) calling sequences (ie R5). -Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 23:59 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] Parallel computing using DECnet On 05/01/2014 11:41 PM, Jovan Trujillo wrote: Oh man ha ha so we are going to do amazing things with 64kb. Like those demo scene guys and their commodore 64's. Alright fractals sound like a good first project for something like this. ...we do have 64kb available right? :) There are very few PDP-11s that won't kick the living snot out of a Commodore 64, FYI. But using FORTRAN, we could potentially use overlays and such. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

11 years, 1 month

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QBUS sound [Was: Re: [HECnet] Parallel computing using DECnet]

by jeep＠scshome.net

My Pro-380 has built-in color (and graphics). Sound would be possible using the TMS-11 - I have one of those as well... -Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 02:10 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: QBUS sound [Was: Re: [HECnet] Parallel computing using DECnet] On 05/02/2014 02:05 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: There are very few PDP-11s that won't kick the living snot out of a Commodore 64, FYI. I've yet to see a PDP-11 with builtin color graphics _and_ sound. Me neither. The 64 probably outsold all models of 11 taken together. That's certainly possible, but one cannot argue that their target markets were even remotely related. Or even aware of each other's existence, for tha tmatter. so it depends on your application and measurement I suppose. We were talking about distributed math apps. I'm told there were, probably third party, sound cards for qbus. Has anyone of you seen one or know more? I haven't. I have a really neat Qbus card with a TMS9918 sprite-based video chip on it, though! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

11 years, 1 month

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Parallel computing using DECnet

by jeep＠scshome.net

Count me in as well. -Steve -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 00:09 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] Parallel computing using DECnet On 04/30/2014 08:18 PM, Jovan Trujillo wrote: This is what got me interested in HECnet: http://www.math.uni-trier.de/~ries/pcud32.pdf <http://www.math.uni-trier.de/%7Eries/pcud32.pdf> Have you guys ever banded together to solve a few math problems with this network? I would be interested in learning how to do it. That would be LOTS of fun. I'm in! I'm even more interested if we could do it with (or including) PDP-11s. Many of my PDP-11s have serious floating point hardware. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

11 years, 1 month

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"Dropped by adjacent node" ....

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2014-05-30 04:27, Peter Lothberg wrote: Would it be possible to change the metric on SG1 on TCP-0-2 to for example 10? Actually, what hapen if we set all multinet UDP links to 20 and TCP links to 10 10 and 20 are way too high. The problem is that the default cost for QNA and UNA circuits is 3 (or 4 - I don't remember). Everybody connected to Johnny's bridge therefore sees a cost of 3 to everybody else on the bridge, even though that connection actually requires a hop over to Sweden (psilo) and back again. Any two machines with Johnny's bridge would never use the Multinet connection, even if it were a direct link between the two. Cost don't impact performance. .. .... I guess that the "problem" here is that most people have local machines on the same segent that is bridged. Having a "to low" metric makes it impoissible to prefer a better path that have serveral hops, over the bridge..... This sounds strange but..... Reliable - PTP link 10 Unreliable PTP link 20 Ethernet bridged 30 Would most likely render the optimal performance. Why? The ethernet bridge would, in my eyes be preferred to two or three reliable PTP links. The ethernet link is very fast for most people (unless they themself are on an ISP with severe limitations, in which case any other link will suffer equally), and has, with one or two exceptions proved very reliable. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

11 years, 1 month

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