I have one machine running Ubuntu w/DECnet here and haven't had any
problems, but my machine is just an end node.
Don't try to talk with anything but VMS, though... ;-)
Does the DECnet/Linux just not implement RTERM? Or are there deeper
problems?
Bob
Bob Armstrong wrote:
Johnny wrote:
I have actually also done DDCMP connections in the past. DDCMP is basically just a serial line, so I tunneled that traffic using some freeware with a little massaging.
But even tunneling DDCMP as you described still requires another machine
to run the "freeware"? BTW, this is essentially what Multinet does, although it's not actually
using DDCMP of course, but it does emulate a point-to-point connection (i.e.
a DECnet line and circuit) that uses the Internet for the actual transport.
Still, if you happen to have, say, a PDP-11 in the garage, there's still
no way to put that -11 on HECnet without another machine to serve as an
intermediary. For many people this isn't an issue because they already have
a suitable machine anyway, but for those who just want to put one machine on
HECnet it's a problem.
Correct. However, DDCMP, as well as tunneling of it, is something you can probably accomplish using any system you can find. All you need is a plain serial port capable of running at rather slow speeds (I can't find a way of going above 9600 bps using RSX atleast, even if the hardware supports that.)
Tunneling ethernet is far more complicated.
Good question. I know that I've had problems when running DECnet/Linux in the past, but that's definitely another possibility.
I have one machine running Ubuntu w/DECnet here and haven't had any
problems, but my machine is just an end node.
Don't try to talk with anything but VMS, though... ;-)
Johnny
At 7:23 PM +0200 6/24/08, Johnny Billquist wrote:
NetBSD is "preferred" by me personally, but the bridge program is mostly running on Linux boxes I think. :-)
I have it running on both Linux and NetBSD myself, and others have run it on OpenBSD, and I think FreeBSD as well. It can probably be made to run on
I'm running on OpenBSD.
I have actually also done DDCMP connections in the past. DDCMP is basically just a serial line, so I tunneled that traffic using some freeware with a little massaging. I could probably set something like that up again, if needed.
Don't know if anything but RSX and VMS supported DECnet over asynch serial lines, though.
According to Megan DECnet for RT-11 only runs over serial lines, of course as no one has been able to come up with a copy...
I've also talking a bit with John Wilson (who writes E11) about possibly adding the bridging code directly in E11, so that you'd have an ethernet interface which would go directly out on the net. That's not working yet, but if people are interested, I'm sure John could cook that up fast enough.
That would likely be of interest to several people, I can't help but think it would at least increase the number part time nodes on HECnet.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
Johnny wrote:
I have actually also done DDCMP connections in the past. DDCMP is
basically just a serial line, so I tunneled that traffic using some
freeware with a little massaging.
But even tunneling DDCMP as you described still requires another machine
to run the "freeware"?
BTW, this is essentially what Multinet does, although it's not actually
using DDCMP of course, but it does emulate a point-to-point connection (i.e.
a DECnet line and circuit) that uses the Internet for the actual transport.
Still, if you happen to have, say, a PDP-11 in the garage, there's still
no way to put that -11 on HECnet without another machine to serve as an
intermediary. For many people this isn't an issue because they already have
a suitable machine anyway, but for those who just want to put one machine on
HECnet it's a problem.
Good question. I know that I've had problems when running DECnet/Linux
in the past, but that's definitely another possibility.
I have one machine running Ubuntu w/DECnet here and haven't had any
problems, but my machine is just an end node.
Bob
Bob Armstrong wrote:
Johnny wrote:
You also need to figure out where to connect to, "physically". That is, which remote machine will you talk to, and using which protocol.
There are several options. Most people either use a VMS machine as a router, and go through an IP-tunneled connection handled by VMS, or they use my bridge program, which acts just like any bridge.
Right - you either need a VAX or Alpha running OpenVMS and the Multinet
TCP/IP package (both of which have free hobbyist licenses), OR you need a
Unix host running Johnny's bridge program. I believe in the latter case
NetBSD is preferred, but Johnny can correct me if that's wrong.
NetBSD is "preferred" by me personally, but the bridge program is mostly running on Linux boxes I think. :-)
I have it running on both Linux and NetBSD myself, and others have run it on OpenBSD, and I think FreeBSD as well. It can probably be made to run on another bunch of Unix-like systems with little effort. There are a few requirements on the hardware though. The ethernet controller must allow you to send packets with a "fake" source MAC address. Also, the Unix system must have bpf.
It's unfortunate, but a VAX/Alpha running OpenVMS is the only thing you
can connect directly to HECnet. For anything else you end up needing an
intermediary to serve as a DECnet router - either an OpenVMS machine or a
NetBSD machine, as described above.
I have actually also done DDCMP connections in the past. DDCMP is basically just a serial line, so I tunneled that traffic using some freeware with a little massaging. I could probably set something like that up again, if needed.
Don't know if anything but RSX and VMS supported DECnet over asynch serial lines, though.
It's possible that the Linux DECnet implementation supports tunneling over
TCP/IP that's compatible with Multinet, but I can't remember. Christine
would know. If that's true, then it would be a third option.
Good question. I know that I've had problems when running DECnet/Linux in the past, but that's definitely another possibility.
I've also talking a bit with John Wilson (who writes E11) about possibly adding the bridging code directly in E11, so that you'd have an ethernet interface which would go directly out on the net. That's not working yet, but if people are interested, I'm sure John could cook that up fast enough.
Johnny
Johnny wrote:
You also need to figure out where to connect to, "physically". That is,
which remote machine will you talk to, and using which protocol.
There are several options. Most people either use a VMS machine as a
router, and go through an IP-tunneled connection handled by VMS, or they
use my bridge program, which acts just like any bridge.
Right - you either need a VAX or Alpha running OpenVMS and the Multinet
TCP/IP package (both of which have free hobbyist licenses), OR you need a
Unix host running Johnny's bridge program. I believe in the latter case
NetBSD is preferred, but Johnny can correct me if that's wrong.
It's unfortunate, but a VAX/Alpha running OpenVMS is the only thing you
can connect directly to HECnet. For anything else you end up needing an
intermediary to serve as a DECnet router - either an OpenVMS machine or a
NetBSD machine, as described above.
It's possible that the Linux DECnet implementation supports tunneling over
TCP/IP that's compatible with Multinet, but I can't remember. Christine
would know. If that's true, then it would be a third option.
Bob
Zane H. Healy wrote:
I'm not sure how much traffic gets routed, but I've got a decent amount of bandwidth available as well.
I've never really noticed any real hit on my bandwidth.
So how do I get started with the node numbers and what-not?
Hopefully Johnny will show up sometime soon, he is the central registry for such things. You need to figure out if you just need a node number or two, or an area. Most people don't need an area, and in order to have an area, you need an area router. I suspect most of us have our own areas for historical reasons (i.e. one of our systems was originally in such and such area).
Right. If anyone wants an area, and have an area router, just say so. There are still plenty of unallocated areas, and I don't really see it as likely that we'll run out of them.
Johnny
Mike Shields wrote:
Well, since the long period of nothing has been broken, I guess I'll take the opportunity to ride along on the burst. I've got a KLH10 TOPS-20 system up on my local network, (Panda distribution) and have several machines that could serve as a router.
Fun. Not that many T20 machines on the net so far. Bring 'em on! :-)
I'm not sure how much traffic gets routed, but I've got a decent amount of bandwidth available as well.
As an endnode, you don't see that much traffic. Mostly the hello broadcasts that occur regularly.
So how do I get started with the node numbers and what-not?
Just talk to me and tell me what you want/need.
In short you need to allocate a node number. For that you first need to figure out in which area you'll live, and then talk with the person responsible for that area. If nothing else, I can put you in area 1, which I handle.
A node name is nice to allocate globally, although not technically required. I try to keep an up-to-date list here.
You also need to figure out where to connect to, "physically". That is, which remote machine will you talk to, and using which protocol.
There are several options. Most people either use a VMS machine as a router, and go through an IP-tunneled connection handled by VMS, or they use my bridge program, which acts just like any bridge.
Johnny
Gregg Levine wrote:
Hello!
Is it me, or is this list suddenly acting like a night out in the
country? (Hint, I hear crickets, and I've not seen a post in months.)
As others noted, this list is bursty. :-)
Okay now the Question: How would I go about configuring a PDP-11 (SimH
or E11) to talk to the HECNET? And which OS is prefrered?
The answer to your first question depends on the answer to the second one, I'd say. :-)
But ethernet is a good start, along with a copy of my bridge program running on some machine, unless you also have some VMS system running as a router on the same ethernet segment.
I do not have a router or Cisco designed gizmo who's stable enough to
support the protocols that we are discussing here, however.
That leaves you just with my bridge program then, I guess.
Johnny
I'm not sure how much traffic gets routed, but I've got a decent amount of bandwidth available as well.
I've never really noticed any real hit on my bandwidth.
So how do I get started with the node numbers and what-not?
Hopefully Johnny will show up sometime soon, he is the central registry for such things. You need to figure out if you just need a node number or two, or an area. Most people don't need an area, and in order to have an area, you need an area router. I suspect most of us have our own areas for historical reasons (i.e. one of our systems was originally in such and such area).
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 11:00 PM, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
At 7:54 PM -0400 6/23/08, Gregg Levine wrote:
Hello!
Is it me, or is this list suddenly acting like a night out in the
country? (Hint, I hear crickets, and I've not seen a post in months.)
This list tends to be long periods of nothing along with short bursts of
traffic.
Okay now the Question: How would I go about configuring a PDP-11 (SimH
or E11) to talk to the HECNET? And which OS is prefrered?
Personally I'd look at E11, but then it has been so long since I played
seriously with SIMH that the network support had just been added, and I
believe it works pretty good now. SIMH has the advantage of no limitations,
but is likely to be the best bet, and it is faster.
As for an OS, I'd prefer to see you running RSTS/E, but I don't think that
is what you mean! :^) If I were to be serious for a second, I'd have to
recommend RSX-11M or RSX-11M+, as their DECnet implementations are
considerably less persnickety. Additionally I don't think many people have
managed to get DECnet/E running under either E11 or SIMH. But then I had a
hard enough time getting it running on real hardware.
I do not have a router or Cisco designed gizmo who's stable enough to
support the protocols that we are discussing here, however.
I'm guessing any old Pentium class would work here. A 486 might not be able
to push the data through Johnny's bridge fast enough.
I'm not sure that anyone is currently running a Cisco router you could
connect to anyway.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
Hello!
I was seriously considering Ultrix, it seems that the collection
roosting on the TUHS site contains DECNET objects, so that's one.
And then the DEC OS you suggested. As for a system, that's TBA.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature was once found posting rude
messages in English in the Moscow subway."
Well, since the long period of nothing has been broken, I guess I'll take the opportunity to ride along on the burst. I've got a KLH10 TOPS-20 system up on my local network, (Panda distribution) and have several machines that could serve as a router.
I'm not sure how much traffic gets routed, but I've got a decent amount of bandwidth available as well.
So how do I get started with the node numbers and what-not?
---
Mike Shields
At 7:54 PM -0400 6/23/08, Gregg Levine wrote:
Hello!
Is it me, or is this list suddenly acting like a night out in the
country? (Hint, I hear crickets, and I've not seen a post in months.)
This list tends to be long periods of nothing along with short bursts of traffic.
Okay now the Question: How would I go about configuring a PDP-11 (SimH
or E11) to talk to the HECNET? And which OS is prefrered?
Personally I'd look at E11, but then it has been so long since I played seriously with SIMH that the network support had just been added, and I believe it works pretty good now. SIMH has the advantage of no limitations, but is likely to be the best bet, and it is faster.
As for an OS, I'd prefer to see you running RSTS/E, but I don't think that is what you mean! :^) If I were to be serious for a second, I'd have to recommend RSX-11M or RSX-11M+, as their DECnet implementations are considerably less persnickety. Additionally I don't think many people have managed to get DECnet/E running under either E11 or SIMH. But then I had a hard enough time getting it running on real hardware.
I do not have a router or Cisco designed gizmo who's stable enough to
support the protocols that we are discussing here, however.
I'm guessing any old Pentium class would work here. A 486 might not be able to push the data through Johnny's bridge fast enough.
I'm not sure that anyone is currently running a Cisco router you could connect to anyway.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
Hello!
Is it me, or is this list suddenly acting like a night out in the
country? (Hint, I hear crickets, and I've not seen a post in months.)
Okay now the Question: How would I go about configuring a PDP-11 (SimH
or E11) to talk to the HECNET? And which OS is prefrered?
I do not have a router or Cisco designed gizmo who's stable enough to
support the protocols that we are discussing here, however.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature was once found posting rude
messages in English in the Moscow subway."
Time has come to clear out a major portion of the stash. At my
age I will never get around to all of the projects. The
following is a partial listing of what is available. I will add
to the list as stuff emerges from the pile. Make offers, cash
or trade. Pickup only in Guntersville, AL, USA.
mVAX II (BA-23) several
mVAX II (BA-123) several
various DEC Qbus card cages for PDP-11
power supply, blower and etc for RM-03
The following needs to go to someone that can make them available to the
group.
A lot of VMS gray wall books
A lot of VMS orange wall books
A lot of component (IC, diode, transistor) manufacture's data books
Time has come to clear out a major portion of the stash. At my
age I will never get around to all of the projects. The
following is a partial listing of what is available. I will add
to the list as stuff emerges from the pile. Make offers, cash
or trade. Pickup only in Guntersville, AL, USA.
mVAX II (BA-23) several
mVAX II (BA-123) several
various DEC Qbus card cages for PDP-11
power supply, blower and etc for RM-03
The following needs to go to someone that can make them available to the group.
A lot of VMS gray wall books
A lot of VMS orange wall books
A lot of component (IC, diode, transistor) manufacture's data books
The hard part is finding time,
work is keeping me way to busy right now.
I know what you mean, but I think I prefer to spend my Sunday afternoon
trying to fix the DECtape drives on my PDP-8 (even if it won't ever be on
HECnet!).
Right after I call my Mom, that is. At least in the USA, today is
Mother's Day.
Bob
At 7:14 AM -0700 5/11/08, Bob Armstrong wrote:
>It wasn't heat for me, at least not yet. For some reason I blocked
the network port. You're all back on HECnet, sorry about that. I'm
going to claim overwork, which considering when I last modified the
file that could very well be the case.
Yep, looks like it's up again. To be honest, I hadn't even noticed that
the PDXVAX link was down until you mentioned it yesterday. Maybe I should
write a little batch job to alert me if a link is down for more than 24
hours...
One of these days I really want to get V2 of the CGI at http://www.avanthar.com:8080/nodes/ written. The plan is for a database backend, and adding alerts when systems such as LEGATO are inaccessible would be easy enough. The hard part is finding time, work is keeping me way to busy right now.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
It wasn't heat for me, at least not yet. For some reason I blocked
the network port. You're all back on HECnet, sorry about that. I'm
going to claim overwork, which considering when I last modified the
file that could very well be the case.
Yep, looks like it's up again. To be honest, I hadn't even noticed that
the PDXVAX link was down until you mentioned it yesterday. Maybe I should
write a little batch job to alert me if a link is down for more than 24
hours...
Thanks,
Bob
At 11:27 AM -0700 5/10/08, Bob Armstrong wrote:
Bob seems to be down, so I'm not bridging the two groups.
Bob is down? Why do you think that?
Because I didn't see LEGATO, and PDXVAX is up.
Right now, I have Multinet connections to SELENE, DUSTY and STUPI. Looks
like the links to ZARQON and PDXVAX are down which, from what you've said,
is not really a surprise.
It wasn't heat for me, at least not yet. For some reason I blocked the network port. You're all back on HECnet, sorry about that. I'm going to claim overwork, which considering when I last modified the file that could very well be the case.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
On Sat, 10 May 2008, Zane H. Healy wrote:
At 1:00 PM +0100 5/10/08, Christine Caulfield wrote:
It's that time of year already !
It's too hot for me to run a VAX in my office at the moment so I've
shut zarqon down for a while, sorry.
Knowing the British weather, I'm sure it will cool down again and
I'll be able to power it back up fairly soon ;-)
Hi Chrissie,
I know how that goes. I really wish I had a dedicated computer room
with air conditioning. At some point PDXVAX will have to go down as
well. In fact we're supposed to hit 88F next Friday, hopefully this
isn't a sign it will get hot early this year. Of course recently we
had 75-80F one Saturday and snow the next.
Was your VAX routing any Multinet sites? Bob seems to be down, so
I'm not bridging the two groups.
Zane
We had 85 about 3 weeks ago and then last week got 30" of snow that shut
down the interstate across the middle of the US. Today was the LAST day
for my network admin class (thank God) and sad to say, the student I had
given the DECnet bridge project didn't come through so as I told Bob, I
will probably do that part myself this summer (hopefully get my net up).
The student I had given the MicroVax 3100 (network NetBSD install) still
wants to finish that project (maybe some knowledge will rub off on him).
At least we got home this week without running into any UFO's. Believe
it or not, 2 weeks ago (driving in the snow) a pickup with a trampoline
strapped to their roof (with monster cable speaker wire), flew off their
roof an nailed the left side of the car we were driving home in. Today
we were lucky. We only got about 2" of snow and no UFO's coming back.
They say, "Trampoline's never strike the same place twice". ;-)
Brett
PS. Last weeks snow was gone in 2 days: http://www.rsts.org/~bbump/snow
Bob seems to be down, so I'm not bridging the two groups.
Bob is down? Why do you think that?
Right now, I have Multinet connections to SELENE, DUSTY and STUPI. Looks
like the links to ZARQON and PDXVAX are down which, from what you've said,
is not really a surprise.
Unfortunately I don't run Johnny's bridge program. I did briefly a couple
of years ago, but I didn't want to keep another machine running 24x7 just
for that purpose.
Bob
At 1:00 PM +0100 5/10/08, Christine Caulfield wrote:
It's that time of year already !
It's too hot for me to run a VAX in my office at the moment so I've shut zarqon down for a while, sorry.
Knowing the British weather, I'm sure it will cool down again and I'll be able to power it back up fairly soon ;-)
Hi Chrissie,
I know how that goes. I really wish I had a dedicated computer room with air conditioning. At some point PDXVAX will have to go down as well. In fact we're supposed to hit 88F next Friday, hopefully this isn't a sign it will get hot early this year. Of course recently we had 75-80F one Saturday and snow the next.
Was your VAX routing any Multinet sites? Bob seems to be down, so I'm not bridging the two groups.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
It's that time of year already !
It's too hot for me to run a VAX in my office at the moment so I've shut zarqon down for a while, sorry.
Knowing the British weather, I'm sure it will cool down again and I'll be able to power it back up fairly soon ;-)
--
Chrissie
Hello to everyone!
Does anyone here have a PDF or Postscript copy of the latest VAX Fortran 77
language reference manual and user manual to share? They should be AA-PU45C-TK
and AA-PUYPA-TE, respectively. HP site has only manuals about the newest HP
Fortran 90/95 compiler for Alpha and IA64, but they completely forgot VAX...
A throughout search of the whole WWW returned nothing suitable for printing. I
would accept DSR files too, because I can convert them to Postscript and PDF.
I'm sorry for the off topic question, but after asking for those manuals to
almost anyone I know, this message is one of my last attempts at finding them.
Thank you very much,
G. (Not English native, hope my English is good enough)
