- HECnet - lists @ Update

by andy＠smokebelch.org

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Christine Caulfield wrote: Bob Armstrong wrote: Christine Caulfield wrote: My Linux nodes seem to talk with your RSX machines quite happily ... well, mostly ... Does DECnet/Linux have any kind of DECnet-over-IP tunneling ability? You should be able to encapsulate DECnet in a GRE tunnel, yes. I don't know anyone who has tried it though! At one time I had a SimH VAX at on my Linux home server, and a real Alpha at my workshop. Each site had an ADSL line and an OpenBSD router, and DECnet via an Ethernet-over-IP tunnel worked fine. I had both systems in a LAVC for a while, but even a show sys/clu was slow, and occasionally the cluster would break for no apparent reason. Andrew

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by andy＠smokebelch.org

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Bob Armstrong wrote: I'd quite like to have a go at running an area. Will OpenVMS VAX 7.3 w/corresponding UCX install suffice for tunneling DECnet-over-IP (RFC1006) to other HECnet routers? Don't know the answer to that one, but Bob Armstrong and others do. I hope they'll chime in. Does UCX do DECnet tunneling over IP? AFAIK it has no such feature, but I haven't used it for years. If it does, then I'm afraid I know nothing about it. With Phase V + UCX you can definitely access OSI apps over IP (RFC1006). And I'm pretty sure I had DECnet sessions running over this, but couldn't swear to it. Seems logical though as I recall hazy memories of snippets of NCL configuration. Andrew

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by andy＠smokebelch.org

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Marc Chametzky wrote: What you need to be aware of is that the DECnet routing license isn't included in the VMS hobbyist program, so unless you have some other license for that part, you will not be able to actually do this. I think this may have changed. When I requested my latest hobbyist licenses about a month ago, a license for DVNETRTG was included along with DVNETEND and DVNETEXT. Heh, amazing, the folks at HP must have realised that there is a requirement amongst hobbyists for routing DECnet :o) Andrew

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by marc＠bluevine.net

What you need to be aware of is that the DECnet routing license isn't included in the VMS hobbyist program, so unless you have some other license for that part, you will not be able to actually do this. I think this may have changed. When I requested my latest hobbyist licenses about a month ago, a license for DVNETRTG was included along with DVNETEND and DVNETEXT. --Marc

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by angela＠kahealani.com

On Tue, 2008-06-24 06:40:18 you wrote: Zane H. Healy wrote: I'm not sure how much traffic gets routed, but I've got a decent amount of bandwidth available as well. I've never really noticed any real hit on my bandwidth. So how do I get started with the node numbers and what-not? Hopefully Johnny will show up sometime soon, he is the central registry for such things. You need to figure out if you just need a node number or two, or an area. Most people don't need an area, and in order to have an area, you need an area router. I suspect most of us have our own areas for historical reasons (i.e. one of our systems was originally in such and such area). Right. If anyone wants an area, and have an area router, just say so. There are still plenty of unallocated areas, and I don't really see it as likely that we'll run out of them. Johnny I'm new to this... is there an area router software for Linux? I have a Linux box with two NICs, and want to run KLH10 TOPS-20 (which I understand needs its own NIC) and wonder if I can run on the remaining Linux NIC an area router in Linux software? And run the bridge program between DECNET and TCP-IP... and link/route all that to your bridge? or am I barking up the wrong tree? I was hoping to contribute to HECNET as much as possible, adding to its' redundant routing and DECNET-TCP/IP bridging. Being located on the Hawaiian islands, and not knowing any other Hawaiian HECnet nodes, I thought it might be useful as a routing point. Aloha, Angela Kahealani -- "(I'll) Be Seeing You..." All information and transactions are private between the parties, and are non negotiable. All rights reserve without prejudice Angela Kahealani. http://kahealani.com

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by christine.caulfield＠googlemail.com

Johnny Billquist wrote: Christine Caulfield wrote: Zane H. Healy wrote: At 12:03 AM +0200 6/25/08, Johnny Billquist wrote: Bob Armstrong wrote: I have one machine running Ubuntu w/DECnet here and haven't had any problems, but my machine is just an end node. Don't try to talk with anything but VMS, though... ;-) Does the DECnet/Linux just not implement RTERM? Or are there deeper problems? Don't know. But they do implement CTERM. But it only works against VMS. Same for NFT and PHONE. The implementors have only had VMS systems to test against, to their defence. And I think it might be a piece of reverse engineering on their part as well. I'm pretty sure I was able to connect to my RSX-11M 4.2 system back nearly 10 years ago using DECnet/Linux. As I recall it didn't work the best, but at least I was able to log in and do some stuff. It's worth knowing that DECnet for linux has two 'set host' programs. sethost is an old one written by Eduardo and (I think) has some rterm code in it. It only supports a small subset of the protocols though so things like line and screen editting (on VMS) just don't work. I rewrote dnlogin from scratch fairly recently (well, in the last couple of years or so!) and though it's only really been tested to VMS it's a LOT better than sethost. It only does CTERM though. Sounds like the situation might be better now then. Maybe someone could try? As for the problems with DECnet between Linux and RSX I should point at that it's been applications that I've had problems with. The basic DEcnet protocol implementation as such is, as far as I know, working fine. Oh, I'm sure that's true. As you say, they've only really been tested against VMS as that's what I had available at the time. OK I now have access to other systems via HECnet but I don't have the time to do anything about it ... that's just life, sorry. I do take patches though ;-) -- Chrissie

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by bqt＠softjar.se

Christine Caulfield wrote: Zane H. Healy wrote: At 12:03 AM +0200 6/25/08, Johnny Billquist wrote: Bob Armstrong wrote: I have one machine running Ubuntu w/DECnet here and haven't had any problems, but my machine is just an end node. Don't try to talk with anything but VMS, though... ;-) Does the DECnet/Linux just not implement RTERM? Or are there deeper problems? Don't know. But they do implement CTERM. But it only works against VMS. Same for NFT and PHONE. The implementors have only had VMS systems to test against, to their defence. And I think it might be a piece of reverse engineering on their part as well. I'm pretty sure I was able to connect to my RSX-11M 4.2 system back nearly 10 years ago using DECnet/Linux. As I recall it didn't work the best, but at least I was able to log in and do some stuff. It's worth knowing that DECnet for linux has two 'set host' programs. sethost is an old one written by Eduardo and (I think) has some rterm code in it. It only supports a small subset of the protocols though so things like line and screen editting (on VMS) just don't work. I rewrote dnlogin from scratch fairly recently (well, in the last couple of years or so!) and though it's only really been tested to VMS it's a LOT better than sethost. It only does CTERM though. Sounds like the situation might be better now then. Maybe someone could try? As for the problems with DECnet between Linux and RSX I should point at that it's been applications that I've had problems with. The basic DEcnet protocol implementation as such is, as far as I know, working fine. Johnny

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by christine.caulfield＠googlemail.com

Zane H. Healy wrote: At 12:03 AM +0200 6/25/08, Johnny Billquist wrote: Bob Armstrong wrote: I have one machine running Ubuntu w/DECnet here and haven't had any problems, but my machine is just an end node. Don't try to talk with anything but VMS, though... ;-) Does the DECnet/Linux just not implement RTERM? Or are there deeper problems? Don't know. But they do implement CTERM. But it only works against VMS. Same for NFT and PHONE. The implementors have only had VMS systems to test against, to their defence. And I think it might be a piece of reverse engineering on their part as well. I'm pretty sure I was able to connect to my RSX-11M 4.2 system back nearly 10 years ago using DECnet/Linux. As I recall it didn't work the best, but at least I was able to log in and do some stuff. It's worth knowing that DECnet for linux has two 'set host' programs. sethost is an old one written by Eduardo and (I think) has some rterm code in it. It only supports a small subset of the protocols though so things like line and screen editting (on VMS) just don't work. I rewrote dnlogin from scratch fairly recently (well, in the last couple of years or so!) and though it's only really been tested to VMS it's a LOT better than sethost. It only does CTERM though. Chrissie

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

At 9:51 AM +0100 6/25/08, Andrew Back wrote: Oh :o( Having seen DVNETEXT in the PAKs I was thinking this is routing when of course it is DVNETRTG. Now I need to find a machine with DVNETRTG... I *really* wanted to play with Phase V routing also. In the meantime what are my other options for Phase IV routing? I'm guessing your bridge software plus an emulated system running software with routing else a hardware router of some description. I believe I've always run Phase IV on my area router, but then it's also running VAX/VMS V5.5-2. I was originally running Phase V on my Alpha, and I believe OpenVMS 7.3-2 at the time, but once I was on HECnet I quickly *upgraded* it to Phase IV, as it has less problems talking to other systems. IIRC, DECnet/E might have been one of the big reasons for moving to Phase IV, but then DECnet/E has problems with just about anything. :^( The software support for a tunnel would be really useful in SIMH, since that would cover not only PDP-11's, but VAXen as well. Support in KLH10 would be nice as well. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by bqt＠softjar.se

Andrew Back wrote: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Johnny Billquist wrote: Andrew Back wrote: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Johnny Billquist wrote: <<SNIP>> Yes, phase V should probably work in most cases. What you need to be aware of is that the DECnet routing license isn't included in the VMS hobbyist program, so unless you have some other license for that part, you will not be able to actually do this. Also, area routing is only supported on OpenVMS/VAX. No Alpha support. And finally, I'm not sure if phase V can do routing. It might be that you need phase IV for that part, but this is something others will have to verify. Oh :o( Having seen DVNETEXT in the PAKs I was thinking this is routing when of course it is DVNETRTG. Now I need to find a machine with DVNETRTG... I *really* wanted to play with Phase V routing also. In the meantime what are my other options for Phase IV routing? I'm guessing your bridge software plus an emulated system running software with routing else a hardware router of some description. With my bridge program, you don't need to have any routing nodes at all. Well, yes, but I like the idea of operating an area and playing with routing. You know, adding complexity for fun. Feel free. :-) Just let me know when you want to take care of the details. Johnny

17 years

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DECnet/Linux tunnels

by bob＠jfcl.com

Christine Caulfield wrote: I very much doubt it to be honest. Linux GRE tunnels don't look anything like the multinet ones as far as I can tell. I did attempt a multinet daemon for Linux but I haven't tried it for ages, I can't remember how useful it got! Well, if you take requests I think this would be a useful alternative for connecting to HECnet. IF I can do something to help (setting up a connection; TCPDUMPs, whatever) let me know. Bob

17 years

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DECnet/Linux tunnels

by christine.caulfield＠googlemail.com

Bob Armstrong wrote: Christine Caulfield wrote: You should be able to encapsulate DECnet in a GRE tunnel, yes. Do you know offhand if this will talk to a Multinet DECnet-IP tunnel? I very much doubt it to be honest. Linux GRE tunnels don't look anything like the multinet ones as far as I can tell. I did attempt a multinet daemon for Linux but I haven't tried it for ages, I can't remember how useful it got! A couple of years ago I think Mary Berryman was able to get his Cisco router talking to a Multinet tunnel using IP/GRE but I don't know if he had to do any tweaking to get it to work or not. -- Chrissie

17 years

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DECnet/Linux tunnels

by bob＠jfcl.com

Christine Caulfield wrote: You should be able to encapsulate DECnet in a GRE tunnel, yes. Do you know offhand if this will talk to a Multinet DECnet-IP tunnel? A couple of years ago I think Mary Berryman was able to get his Cisco router talking to a Multinet tunnel using IP/GRE but I don't know if he had to do any tweaking to get it to work or not. Don't know what happened to Mark - we haven't heard from him for a while. Bob

17 years

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DECnet/Linux tunnels

by christine.caulfield＠googlemail.com

Bob Armstrong wrote: Christine Caulfield wrote: My Linux nodes seem to talk with your RSX machines quite happily ... well, mostly ... Does DECnet/Linux have any kind of DECnet-over-IP tunneling ability? You should be able to encapsulate DECnet in a GRE tunnel, yes. I don't know anyone who has tried it though! Chrissie

17 years

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DECnet/Linux tunnels

by bob＠jfcl.com

Christine Caulfield wrote: My Linux nodes seem to talk with your RSX machines quite happily ... well, mostly ... Does DECnet/Linux have any kind of DECnet-over-IP tunneling ability? Bob

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by bob＠jfcl.com

I'd quite like to have a go at running an area. Will OpenVMS VAX 7.3 w/corresponding UCX install suffice for tunneling DECnet-over-IP (RFC1006) to other HECnet routers? Don't know the answer to that one, but Bob Armstrong and others do. I hope they'll chime in. Does UCX do DECnet tunneling over IP? AFAIK it has no such feature, but I haven't used it for years. If it does, then I'm afraid I know nothing about it. FWIW, I switched from UCX to Multinet years ago because the Multinet implementation was much more complete and much less buggy. If you're a hobbyist you might want to consider switching too; there is a free hobbyist license program for Multinet and other Process Software products. Bob

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by andy＠smokebelch.org

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Johnny Billquist wrote: Andrew Back wrote: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Johnny Billquist wrote: <<SNIP>> Yes, phase V should probably work in most cases. What you need to be aware of is that the DECnet routing license isn't included in the VMS hobbyist program, so unless you have some other license for that part, you will not be able to actually do this. Also, area routing is only supported on OpenVMS/VAX. No Alpha support. And finally, I'm not sure if phase V can do routing. It might be that you need phase IV for that part, but this is something others will have to verify. Oh :o( Having seen DVNETEXT in the PAKs I was thinking this is routing when of course it is DVNETRTG. Now I need to find a machine with DVNETRTG... I *really* wanted to play with Phase V routing also. In the meantime what are my other options for Phase IV routing? I'm guessing your bridge software plus an emulated system running software with routing else a hardware router of some description. With my bridge program, you don't need to have any routing nodes at all. Well, yes, but I like the idea of operating an area and playing with routing. You know, adding complexity for fun. Cheers, Andrew

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by bqt＠softjar.se

Andrew Back wrote: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Johnny Billquist wrote: <<SNIP>> Yes, phase V should probably work in most cases. What you need to be aware of is that the DECnet routing license isn't included in the VMS hobbyist program, so unless you have some other license for that part, you will not be able to actually do this. Also, area routing is only supported on OpenVMS/VAX. No Alpha support. And finally, I'm not sure if phase V can do routing. It might be that you need phase IV for that part, but this is something others will have to verify. Oh :o( Having seen DVNETEXT in the PAKs I was thinking this is routing when of course it is DVNETRTG. Now I need to find a machine with DVNETRTG... I *really* wanted to play with Phase V routing also. In the meantime what are my other options for Phase IV routing? I'm guessing your bridge software plus an emulated system running software with routing else a hardware router of some description. With my bridge program, you don't need to have any routing nodes at all. Johnny

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by andy＠smokebelch.org

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Johnny Billquist wrote: <<SNIP>> Yes, phase V should probably work in most cases. What you need to be aware of is that the DECnet routing license isn't included in the VMS hobbyist program, so unless you have some other license for that part, you will not be able to actually do this. Also, area routing is only supported on OpenVMS/VAX. No Alpha support. And finally, I'm not sure if phase V can do routing. It might be that you need phase IV for that part, but this is something others will have to verify. Oh :o( Having seen DVNETEXT in the PAKs I was thinking this is routing when of course it is DVNETRTG. Now I need to find a machine with DVNETRTG... I *really* wanted to play with Phase V routing also. In the meantime what are my other options for Phase IV routing? I'm guessing your bridge software plus an emulated system running software with routing else a hardware router of some description. Cheers, Andrew

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by bqt＠softjar.se

Andrew Back skrev: On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Johnny Billquist wrote: Zane H. Healy wrote: I'm not sure how much traffic gets routed, but I've got a decent amount of bandwidth available as well. I've never really noticed any real hit on my bandwidth. So how do I get started with the node numbers and what-not? Hopefully Johnny will show up sometime soon, he is the central registry for such things. You need to figure out if you just need a node number or two, or an area. Most people don't need an area, and in order to have an area, you need an area router. I suspect most of us have our own areas for historical reasons (i.e. one of our systems was originally in such and such area). Right. If anyone wants an area, and have an area router, just say so. There are still plenty of unallocated areas, and I don't really see it as likely that we'll run out of them. I'd quite like to have a go at running an area. Will OpenVMS VAX 7.3 w/corresponding UCX install suffice for tunneling DECnet-over-IP (RFC1006) to other HECnet routers? Don't know the answer to that one, but Bob Armstrong and others do. I hope they'll chime in. If so I have a SimH instance on my home server I could use. And then a couple of Alpha boxen that are sometimes powered-up which it could route to. And if so am I right in thinking I could use Phase V but as long as I configure all it's Phase IV aspects appropriately? It's over 10 years since I was a VMS admin and it's all getting a bit hazy. Yes, phase V should probably work in most cases. What you need to be aware of is that the DECnet routing license isn't included in the VMS hobbyist program, so unless you have some other license for that part, you will not be able to actually do this. Also, area routing is only supported on OpenVMS/VAX. No Alpha support. And finally, I'm not sure if phase V can do routing. It might be that you need phase IV for that part, but this is something others will have to verify. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by andy＠smokebelch.org

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Johnny Billquist wrote: Zane H. Healy wrote: I'm not sure how much traffic gets routed, but I've got a decent amount of bandwidth available as well. I've never really noticed any real hit on my bandwidth. So how do I get started with the node numbers and what-not? Hopefully Johnny will show up sometime soon, he is the central registry for such things. You need to figure out if you just need a node number or two, or an area. Most people don't need an area, and in order to have an area, you need an area router. I suspect most of us have our own areas for historical reasons (i.e. one of our systems was originally in such and such area). Right. If anyone wants an area, and have an area router, just say so. There are still plenty of unallocated areas, and I don't really see it as likely that we'll run out of them. I'd quite like to have a go at running an area. Will OpenVMS VAX 7.3 w/corresponding UCX install suffice for tunneling DECnet-over-IP (RFC1006) to other HECnet routers? If so I have a SimH instance on my home server I could use. And then a couple of Alpha boxen that are sometimes powered-up which it could route to. And if so am I right in thinking I could use Phase V but as long as I configure all it's Phase IV aspects appropriately? It's over 10 years since I was a VMS admin and it's all getting a bit hazy. Cheers, Andrew

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by christine.caulfield＠googlemail.com

Johnny Billquist wrote: Bob Armstrong wrote: Johnny wrote: I have actually also done DDCMP connections in the past. DDCMP is basically just a serial line, so I tunneled that traffic using some freeware with a little massaging. But even tunneling DDCMP as you described still requires another machine to run the "freeware"? BTW, this is essentially what Multinet does, although it's not actually using DDCMP of course, but it does emulate a point-to-point connection (i.e. a DECnet line and circuit) that uses the Internet for the actual transport. Still, if you happen to have, say, a PDP-11 in the garage, there's still no way to put that -11 on HECnet without another machine to serve as an intermediary. For many people this isn't an issue because they already have a suitable machine anyway, but for those who just want to put one machine on HECnet it's a problem. Correct. However, DDCMP, as well as tunneling of it, is something you can probably accomplish using any system you can find. All you need is a plain serial port capable of running at rather slow speeds (I can't find a way of going above 9600 bps using RSX atleast, even if the hardware supports that.) Tunneling ethernet is far more complicated. Good question. I know that I've had problems when running DECnet/Linux in the past, but that's definitely another possibility. I have one machine running Ubuntu w/DECnet here and haven't had any problems, but my machine is just an end node. Don't try to talk with anything but VMS, though... ;-) My Linux nodes seem to talk with your RSX machines quite happily ... well, mostly ... -- Chrissie

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by bqt＠softjar.se

Zane H. Healy skrev: At 12:03 AM +0200 6/25/08, Johnny Billquist wrote: Bob Armstrong wrote: I have one machine running Ubuntu w/DECnet here and haven't had any problems, but my machine is just an end node. Don't try to talk with anything but VMS, though... ;-) Does the DECnet/Linux just not implement RTERM? Or are there deeper problems? Don't know. But they do implement CTERM. But it only works against VMS. Same for NFT and PHONE. The implementors have only had VMS systems to test against, to their defence. And I think it might be a piece of reverse engineering on their part as well. I'm pretty sure I was able to connect to my RSX-11M 4.2 system back nearly 10 years ago using DECnet/Linux. As I recall it didn't work the best, but at least I was able to log in and do some stuff. 10 years ago? Wow. I didn't even know DECnet/Linux existed, much less worked, back in the 90s. But anyway, I tried it maybe five years ago, and was not encouraged. It barely worked for a short period before hanging, each time I tried it. But that's just what I can recollect now, and as I said, this was q number of years ago. Maybe things are better today. Anyone with a Linux machine on HECnet who cares to try doing a set host to MIM? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

At 12:03 AM +0200 6/25/08, Johnny Billquist wrote: Bob Armstrong wrote: I have one machine running Ubuntu w/DECnet here and haven't had any problems, but my machine is just an end node. Don't try to talk with anything but VMS, though... ;-) Does the DECnet/Linux just not implement RTERM? Or are there deeper problems? Don't know. But they do implement CTERM. But it only works against VMS. Same for NFT and PHONE. The implementors have only had VMS systems to test against, to their defence. And I think it might be a piece of reverse engineering on their part as well. I'm pretty sure I was able to connect to my RSX-11M 4.2 system back nearly 10 years ago using DECnet/Linux. As I recall it didn't work the best, but at least I was able to log in and do some stuff. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

17 years

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Quiet list and a question about setting up a system

by bqt＠softjar.se

Bob Armstrong wrote: I have one machine running Ubuntu w/DECnet here and haven't had any problems, but my machine is just an end node. Don't try to talk with anything but VMS, though... ;-) Does the DECnet/Linux just not implement RTERM? Or are there deeper problems? Don't know. But they do implement CTERM. But it only works against VMS. Same for NFT and PHONE. The implementors have only had VMS systems to test against, to their defence. And I think it might be a piece of reverse engineering on their part as well. Johnny

17 years

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