%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 12-AUG-2009 05:46:39.71 %%%%%%%%%%%
Message from user SYSTEM on STUPI
MultiNet Server: ns: restarted
%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 12-AUG-2009 05:47:03.79 %%%%%%%%%%%
Message from user DECNET on STUPI
DECnet event 4.10, circuit up
I've noticed that lots of the Multinet connections LEGATO is serving
appear to be down. Not all of them, but lots.
STUPI - down (Peter, where are you???)
I dunno, it's just echoes "BELL" on the console. Attempting remote
power cyckle:
KA630-A.V1.3
Performing normal system tests.
KA630-A.V1.3
Performing normal system tests.
7..6..5..4..3..
Tests completed.
Loading system software.
2..1..0..
VAX/VMS Version V5.4 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0
PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 12-AUG-2009 05:16
Let's se what it does.. It usally takes like 45 minutes for it to
boot.. -:)
--Peter
I've noticed that lots of the Multinet connections LEGATO is serving
appear to be down. Not all of them, but lots.
PDXVAX - down (I guess Zane still hasn't been able to unpack it).
PETEY - down (Is Dan back from Oz?)
DUSTY - up (good!)
SELENE - down
STUPI - down (Peter, where are you???)
ZARQON - down (Chrissie said it's too hot to run it)
MISER - down
GORVAX - up
Looks like we can still talk to the Johnny Bridge world via GORVAX, but
only areas 1 and 11 appear to be up.
Bob
Hi,
Sorry for the long delay!
There appeared a corruption problem with the TSM freeware kits.
It took me some time to find working kits as I don't have all of them online. Now the functional kit is on my Alpha - thanks to my friend and hobbyist Teijo.
The kits you need for a full installation (for Alpha) with ECO's are:
TSM021.DCX_AXPEXE
TSMECO.ZIP
Enjoy!
Regards,
Kari
Kari Uusim ki wrote:
Hi,
sorry for the long delay. My work disturbes occasionally my hobbies. :)
Now the TSM kits (Alpha and VAX) are extracted from the VMS Freeware V5.0.
You can fetch them from my Alpha:
wega.dechobbyist.net
using anonymous ftp.
Kari
Sampsa Laine wrote:
If you could extract it, I would be very grateful, I'm kinda low on space on CHIMPY at the moment.
Can't wait to get to my new place, will be able to bring both the Alphaserver 4100 and rx2600 online.
Sampsa
On 27 May 2009, at 21:25, Kari Uusim ki wrote:
The TOC of the Freeware v5 disks is here:
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/freeware/v5_00freeware_abstract.txt
and the download pointer is here:
ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms//FREEWARE50.ZIP
Yes, I know, it is the whole disk image.
If you aren't in a hurry, I could extract the TSM stuff from my disk and put it on my Alpha for download.
Kari
Sampsa Laine wrote:
Got a pointer for this? I did a quick Google but there was nothing immediately useful (i.e. kits / binaries) in the results.
Sampsa
On 27 May 2009, at 20:44, Kari Uusim ki wrote:
The command "language" is almost same on all DECservers. The newer ones have TCP/IP related commands, which aren't found on older ones.
The help is quite good indeed.
If you are interested, the TSM (Terminal Server Manager) software (for VMS) is freeware. You can use it to configure all your DECservers and retain their configurations on a centralized server.
Chrissie Caulfield wrote:
Sampsa Laine wrote:
Thanks Chrissie, already seen this, unfortunately it does not contain
anything like a command reference that would help me set up the ports
etc. Anyone have something like this? How close are the commands of say
a DECserver 100 to a 200?
It's very similar to a DECserver 100. Most of the differences are to do
with modem control.
I seem to remember it has quite good help too.
.
.
Yeah, I realise I need to get mail in to the system as well, but this seems fairly trivial using those routines in the HELP section or even (god forbid) some kind of SSH / SFTP / DCL script monstrosity. What I was worried about was getting the FIDO% addressing working and it does, like a dream actually.
Basically, I'll have a UNIX box doing the heavy lifting (i.e. mailer, bundling of messages etc) and the VMS box gets fed very straight forward messages in, and pumps very straight forward messages out . In fact I have something that works quite well already for the VMS -> Fido bit, now reading up on how to get the mail the other way.
As for why? Pure amusement value, getting one fairly obscure network (HECnet) connected to another (Fidonet) will be a nice little challenge and great fun if we get it to work.
Sampsa
On 2 Jul 2009, at 04:09, Bob Armstrong wrote:
Erik Soderholm) provided me with source code that does pretty much
exactly what I want (well listens to a <protname>% thing from mail and
does something with it).
Glad to hear you got what you need. Maybe I shouldn't mention it right
now, but this is only half the job. This part will handle the outgoing
(MAIL-11 -> FIDOnet) part, but you'll also need to write another program
that runs as a detached system process ("daemon" to you Un*x guys) that
listens for incoming FIDOnet mail and then dumps it into MAIL-11 (presumably
using the MAIL$ API routines). It's not really hard, but it's another piece
that you'll need.
What (or rather who) is still on FIDOnet these days?
Bob
Erik Soderholm) provided me with source code that does pretty much
exactly what I want (well listens to a <protname>% thing from mail and
does something with it).
Glad to hear you got what you need. Maybe I shouldn't mention it right
now, but this is only half the job. This part will handle the outgoing
(MAIL-11 -> FIDOnet) part, but you'll also need to write another program
that runs as a detached system process ("daemon" to you Un*x guys) that
listens for incoming FIDOnet mail and then dumps it into MAIL-11 (presumably
using the MAIL$ API routines). It's not really hard, but it's another piece
that you'll need.
What (or rather who) is still on FIDOnet these days?
Bob
To start off with, if you don't have time to help me with this, I
totally understand and will stop bothering you.
It's OK - you're not bothering me. I have to admit that, although I have
used the MAIL$ API on occasion, I never actually did this before (wrote a
MAIL-11 foreign transport protocol). FWIW, the CMU TCP/IP implementation
for VMS came with source code and I'm pretty sure it had an SMTP mail
gateway. You might look for that.
But I see from a recent posting that you've already got what you need.
Sounds like you're all set.
Bob
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, Marc Chametzky wrote:
If you go to http://www.process.com/openvms/hobbyist.html and click on "[License Terms and PAKs]", one of the products you can select (after you agree to the license) is PMDF.
Thanks - this is exactly what I needed. I'm not sure why I didn't see it before when I fetched my Multinet PAK.
Now I'm just waiting for my PMDF PAK to arrive. I will hopefully have time over the weekend to get this set up.
Cheers & thanks again ...
Fred
---
The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to
lead all his customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores
the fact that it was he who by peddling second-hand, second-rate
technology, led them all into it in the first place. (Douglas Adams, '95)
WOO HOO. It actually sort of works. I've managed to tie into the <PROTOCOL>% handler with a couple of hundred lines of C code that I modified from what I was sent and the MAIL program quite happily produces XML output.
Now all that's left to do is to write a little python script to pull down the files from the outbound directory, convert them to Fidonet format and place them in the outbound directory of my Fido mailer.
Happy days.
Sampsa
On 2 Jul 2009, at 00:21, Sampsa Laine wrote:
I am a very very happy bunny: A friendly guy on c.o.v. (called Jan Erik Soderholm) provided me with source code that does pretty much exactly what I want (well listens to a <protname>% thing from mail and does something with it).
And it's in C, so I won't be entirely lost.
I think I'll be able to knock out something resembling a working bit of code within a pretty short period of time.
Get ready to be on Fidonet guys!
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 22:46, Zane H. Healy wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, Sampsa Laine wrote:
I will take a look at this mail_routines documentation - it's not immediately obvious to me how to write the library with the relevant entry points. As others seem to point out it's rather undocumented - you wouldn't have any old code lying around would you Bob? :)
I'd recommend asking such questions on comp.os.vms rather than here. Better
to hit a much wider audience.
Zane
I am a very very happy bunny: A friendly guy on c.o.v. (called Jan Erik Soderholm) provided me with source code that does pretty much exactly what I want (well listens to a <protname>% thing from mail and does something with it).
And it's in C, so I won't be entirely lost.
I think I'll be able to knock out something resembling a working bit of code within a pretty short period of time.
Get ready to be on Fidonet guys!
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 22:46, Zane H. Healy wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, Sampsa Laine wrote:
I will take a look at this mail_routines documentation - it's not immediately obvious to me how to write the library with the relevant entry points. As others seem to point out it's rather undocumented - you wouldn't have any old code lying around would you Bob? :)
I'd recommend asking such questions on comp.os.vms rather than here. Better
to hit a much wider audience.
Zane
WIll do, this way I'll stop bugging Bob as well :)
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 22:46, Zane H. Healy wrote:
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, Sampsa Laine wrote:
I will take a look at this mail_routines documentation - it's not immediately obvious to me how to write the library with the relevant entry points. As others seem to point out it's rather undocumented - you wouldn't have any old code lying around would you Bob? :)
I'd recommend asking such questions on comp.os.vms rather than here. Better
to hit a much wider audience.
Zane
Bob,
To start off with, if you don't have time to help me with this, I totally understand and will stop bothering you.
I've just had an idea -
1. To send mail: All I will do on the VMS side is set up a FIDO% handler that simply writes the message it receives verbatim into a directory. I will then periodically poll this directory via FTP from my main Fido box, run some quick Python scripts to mangle it into Fidonet format and dump it into the appropriate place for my mailer etc to move it onwards.
2. To receive mail: I will configure my mailer on the Fido box to mangle the message (using a Python script again) into something that is easy to import into VMS mail, upload it via FTP to the VMS box where a periodic script looks for these messages and inserts them into MAIL using the published routines that I found in help.
It's part 1 that I have no idea where to get started, as the documentation in HELP doesn't seem to offer any clues on how to build this library that ties into VMSMAIL. Any pointers / code would be tremendously gratefully received.
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 18:58, bob at jfcl.com wrote:
Got any documentation for this API?
$ help mail_routines
It's also in the gray (or orange) wall, of course.
Ideally I'd want to somehow "hook" into the MAIL application in the
All I can say is that there's a documented path for doing this - there's
\nothing special about SMTP in this regard. It's called a "foreign transport
protocol" or something like that. You need to write a library with
the appropriate entry points (this is where the documentation comes in
handy), call it FIDO_MAILSHR, and install it. If you do the right
stuff, VMSMAIL will recognize the FIDO%"..." address and call your
library. Couldn't be easier :-)
BOb
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, Sampsa Laine wrote:
I will take a look at this mail_routines documentation - it's not immediately obvious to me how to write the library with the relevant entry points. As others seem to point out it's rather undocumented - you wouldn't have any old code lying around would you Bob? :)
I'd recommend asking such questions on comp.os.vms rather than here. Better
to hit a much wider audience.
Zane
Hmm, looks doable. I think my skillset might be more targeted towards the Ultrix path, and we could use an emulated PDP-11 Ultrix on HECnet right?
I will take a look at this mail_routines documentation - it's not immediately obvious to me how to write the library with the relevant entry points. As others seem to point out it's rather undocumented - you wouldn't have any old code lying around would you Bob? :)
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 18:58, bob at jfcl.com wrote:
Got any documentation for this API?
$ help mail_routines
It's also in the gray (or orange) wall, of course.
Ideally I'd want to somehow "hook" into the MAIL application in the
All I can say is that there's a documented path for doing this - there's
\nothing special about SMTP in this regard. It's called a "foreign transport
protocol" or something like that. You need to write a library with
the appropriate entry points (this is where the documentation comes in
handy), call it FIDO_MAILSHR, and install it. If you do the right
stuff, VMSMAIL will recognize the FIDO%"..." address and call your
library. Couldn't be easier :-)
BOb
Speaking of PMDF, I'd really like to get my hobbyist-hands on that. I've looked at Process Software's website but was unable to find a link for hobbyists for anything other than Multinet (which I run on MISER).
If you go to http://www.process.com/openvms/hobbyist.html and click on "[License Terms and PAKs]", one of the products you can select (after you agree to the license) is PMDF.
--Marc
Wow. nifty. Will need to check it out sometime :)
All of your guys talk is making me itch to get some of my Alphas /
VAXen running and up on the net
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Sampsa Laine<sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
Way ahead of you my friend, log in as user B4BBS of CHIMPY and you get
directed to my bulletin board, called B4BBS.
It's even got a working Fidonet feed!
Oh and ANSI backgammon. I LOVE ANSI backgammon.
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 17:41, Joshua Benedetto wrote:
Dial in you say? hmmmmm time for some old school BBS :)
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Sampsa Laine<sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
Oh and I'll be moving house soon, upgrading my DSL line to a bonded 40
meg
down / 3 meg up dealie. This will give me two spare BT lines that we
could
use for some kind of dial up retro goodness - I'm open to suggestions...
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 16:22, Sampsa Laine wrote:
Which I assume is a good thing?
BTW, I'm toying with hacking together a Fidonet - HECnet gateway. How
easy
is it to get mail in and out of VMS mail using say DCL?
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 16:21, Bob Armstrong wrote:
Or am I misunderstanding something?
There are multiple routes now between Johnny's world and the Multinet
world...
Bob
On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, Marc Chametzky wrote:
In all seriousness, I think it'd be easier to write a PMDF channel program and interface it through the PMDF Internet e-mail software (available for hobbyists from Process Software). At least that interface is documented with examples. :-)
Speaking of PMDF, I'd really like to get my hobbyist-hands on that. I've looked at Process Software's website but was unable to find a link for hobbyists for anything other than Multinet (which I run on MISER).
If nothing else, I'd like PMDF for the updated version of PINE it contains. ;)
Anyone have a pointer/link?
Fred
---
For a list of all the ways technology has failed to improve
the quality of life, please press three.
A. Kahn
Yes, that's what I was thinking. I don't know how to do it, never
having been that deep into Sendmail. I assume something like this was
used in the early days of worldwide email, when DEC had a gateway
(gatekeeper.dec.com) which mapped the internal Mail-11 system onto
Usenet and other external email machinery.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On
Behalf Of Sampsa Laine
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 1:15 PM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Zaphod down for a few days
Actually, what would be the proposed configuration using Sendmail, am
I right in thinking something along the lines of:
- Ultrix running on a SIMH VAX (or even a real one if I ever get
one)
- DECNET stack on Ultrix
- Sendmail configured to accept Mail-11 (I saw there were some
pre-
made scripts for this)
- Sendmail also configured to accept Fido stuff (also available)
Hmmm. This could work. Could be amusing to set up as well.
Samosa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 17:56, Paul Koning wrote:
Coulnd't you use Sendmail to do this? It seems to have all the
necessary gateway machinery. It probably doesn't run on VMS but it
would on Ultrix, so that could be the gateway to the Mail11
protocol.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
On
Behalf Of Sampsa Laine
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:53 PM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Zaphod down for a few days
Got any documentation for this API?
Ideally I'd want to somehow "hook" into the MAIL application in the
same way as TCP/IP does, i.e. to send an smtp message you prepend
SMTP
% to the recipient, I would love to be able to use an address like:
FIDO%"John Q Public at 1:123/4.5"
How painful would this be to do (the hooking into the MAIL part and
parsing, I'll worry about the Fidonet encodings etc myself)?
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 16:35, Bob Armstrong wrote:
How easy is it to get mail in and out of VMS mail using say DCL?
Sending is pretty easy, but reading it would require you to do
some
parsing (which, of course, can be done).
But there is an API for VMS mail and it'd be easier to write a
program to
do it instead (unless you really want to prove that you can do it
in
DCL)...
Bob
Sampsa Laine wrote:
Got any documentation for this API?
Ideally I'd want to somehow "hook" into the MAIL application in the same way as TCP/IP does, i.e. to send an smtp message you prepend SMTP% to the recipient, I would love to be able to use an address like:
FIDO%"John Q Public at 1:123/4.5"
The Callable MAIL API is, IMO, not for the faint-hearted. In any case, the foreign mail interface (that allows for XYZ% addressing) isn't documented. Examples can be found in some old mail software that came with source, which I can no longer remember. Even so, it's still unpleasant.
In all seriousness, I think it'd be easier to write a PMDF channel program and interface it through the PMDF Internet e-mail software (available for hobbyists from Process Software). At least that interface is documented with examples. :-)
--Marc
Got any documentation for this API?
$ help mail_routines
It's also in the gray (or orange) wall, of course.
Ideally I'd want to somehow "hook" into the MAIL application in the
All I can say is that there's a documented path for doing this - there's
\nothing special about SMTP in this regard. It's called a "foreign transport
protocol" or something like that. You need to write a library with
the appropriate entry points (this is where the documentation comes in
handy), call it FIDO_MAILSHR, and install it. If you do the right
stuff, VMSMAIL will recognize the FIDO%"..." address and call your
library. Couldn't be easier :-)
BOb
Actually, what would be the proposed configuration using Sendmail, am I right in thinking something along the lines of:
- Ultrix running on a SIMH VAX (or even a real one if I ever get one)
- DECNET stack on Ultrix
- Sendmail configured to accept Mail-11 (I saw there were some pre-made scripts for this)
- Sendmail also configured to accept Fido stuff (also available)
Hmmm. This could work. Could be amusing to set up as well.
Samosa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 17:56, Paul Koning wrote:
Coulnd't you use Sendmail to do this? It seems to have all the
necessary gateway machinery. It probably doesn't run on VMS but it
would on Ultrix, so that could be the gateway to the Mail11 protocol.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On
Behalf Of Sampsa Laine
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:53 PM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Zaphod down for a few days
Got any documentation for this API?
Ideally I'd want to somehow "hook" into the MAIL application in the
same way as TCP/IP does, i.e. to send an smtp message you prepend SMTP
% to the recipient, I would love to be able to use an address like:
FIDO%"John Q Public at 1:123/4.5"
How painful would this be to do (the hooking into the MAIL part and
parsing, I'll worry about the Fidonet encodings etc myself)?
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 16:35, Bob Armstrong wrote:
How easy is it to get mail in and out of VMS mail using say DCL?
Sending is pretty easy, but reading it would require you to do some
parsing (which, of course, can be done).
But there is an API for VMS mail and it'd be easier to write a
program to
do it instead (unless you really want to prove that you can do it in
DCL)...
Bob
Yes, and of course I could use a BBS program designed to actually do this properly as well (which in fact I do).
Also, I've never configured Sendmail but I've heard of the horror stories involved. But I guess it could be fun.
Anyway, a hacked VMS MAIL that can send Fidonet netmail would be kinda cool in its own right, sort of doing it for the sake of it :)
Come on, HECnet absolutely NEEDS a Fidonet gateway! :-P
Bob: Do you happen to have a pointer to that VMS MAIL API documentation?
On 1 Jul 2009, at 17:56, Paul Koning wrote:
Coulnd't you use Sendmail to do this? It seems to have all the
necessary gateway machinery. It probably doesn't run on VMS but it
would on Ultrix, so that could be the gateway to the Mail11 protocol.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On
Behalf Of Sampsa Laine
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:53 PM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Zaphod down for a few days
Got any documentation for this API?
Ideally I'd want to somehow "hook" into the MAIL application in the
same way as TCP/IP does, i.e. to send an smtp message you prepend SMTP
% to the recipient, I would love to be able to use an address like:
FIDO%"John Q Public at 1:123/4.5"
How painful would this be to do (the hooking into the MAIL part and
parsing, I'll worry about the Fidonet encodings etc myself)?
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 16:35, Bob Armstrong wrote:
How easy is it to get mail in and out of VMS mail using say DCL?
Sending is pretty easy, but reading it would require you to do some
parsing (which, of course, can be done).
But there is an API for VMS mail and it'd be easier to write a
program to
do it instead (unless you really want to prove that you can do it in
DCL)...
Bob
Coulnd't you use Sendmail to do this? It seems to have all the
necessary gateway machinery. It probably doesn't run on VMS but it
would on Ultrix, so that could be the gateway to the Mail11 protocol.
paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On
Behalf Of Sampsa Laine
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 12:53 PM
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Zaphod down for a few days
Got any documentation for this API?
Ideally I'd want to somehow "hook" into the MAIL application in the
same way as TCP/IP does, i.e. to send an smtp message you prepend SMTP
% to the recipient, I would love to be able to use an address like:
FIDO%"John Q Public at 1:123/4.5"
How painful would this be to do (the hooking into the MAIL part and
parsing, I'll worry about the Fidonet encodings etc myself)?
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 16:35, Bob Armstrong wrote:
How easy is it to get mail in and out of VMS mail using say DCL?
Sending is pretty easy, but reading it would require you to do some
parsing (which, of course, can be done).
But there is an API for VMS mail and it'd be easier to write a
program to
do it instead (unless you really want to prove that you can do it in
DCL)...
Bob
Way ahead of you my friend, log in as user B4BBS of CHIMPY and you get directed to my bulletin board, called B4BBS.
It's even got a working Fidonet feed!
Oh and ANSI backgammon. I LOVE ANSI backgammon.
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 17:41, Joshua Benedetto wrote:
Dial in you say? hmmmmm time for some old school BBS :)
On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Sampsa Laine<sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
Oh and I'll be moving house soon, upgrading my DSL line to a bonded 40 meg
down / 3 meg up dealie. This will give me two spare BT lines that we could
use for some kind of dial up retro goodness - I'm open to suggestions...
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 16:22, Sampsa Laine wrote:
Which I assume is a good thing?
BTW, I'm toying with hacking together a Fidonet - HECnet gateway. How easy
is it to get mail in and out of VMS mail using say DCL?
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 16:21, Bob Armstrong wrote:
Or am I misunderstanding something?
There are multiple routes now between Johnny's world and the Multinet
world...
Bob
Got any documentation for this API?
Ideally I'd want to somehow "hook" into the MAIL application in the same way as TCP/IP does, i.e. to send an smtp message you prepend SMTP% to the recipient, I would love to be able to use an address like:
FIDO%"John Q Public at 1:123/4.5"
How painful would this be to do (the hooking into the MAIL part and parsing, I'll worry about the Fidonet encodings etc myself)?
Sampsa
On 1 Jul 2009, at 16:35, Bob Armstrong wrote:
How easy is it to get mail in and out of VMS mail using say DCL?
Sending is pretty easy, but reading it would require you to do some
parsing (which, of course, can be done).
But there is an API for VMS mail and it'd be easier to write a program to
do it instead (unless you really want to prove that you can do it in DCL)...
Bob