I guess I got in at the end of the Netware years (Yeah I know governments still use) and I did live through the entire Ethernet, EthernetII, 802.2, 802.3 fiasco's (lol so much for standard....) All the stuff we had midrange did speak IPX/SPX, from the NeXT to the RS/6000's and PC's.... Oddly enough our VAX's actually had some netware thing. I wish I'd managed to make copies of the tapes, but we did have Netware for VAX/VMS.
For our mainframe access we used Novell's SAA gateway which... was terrible, when Microsoft shipped SNA server 2.1 (was there a 1.0?!) we RAN to that... And used it over IPX/SXP with people even using dialup shiva's!
It wasn't until 95 with Microsoft including TCP/IP into the consumer OS did it really start to matter.
Well from my POV anyways.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:27 PM, H Vlems <hvlems at zonnet.nl> wrote:
Remember what I wrote: this happened nearly two decades ago.
IP is the protocol that survived and most people aren t even aware what happened on local area networks before, say,1998.
I worked for Fuji, photosensitive films, paper and offset printing products.
Most of the IT equipment was made by DEC: PDP-11 s (/44, /84, /93, /24, /73 and /23), VAXes, an IBM mainframe (4081) and PC s.
And lots of other gear, most of it in the research lab. A Motorola box that ran Motorola Unix, and an RS/6000 under AIX 2.4 (?).
The lingua franca was DECnet and LAT. No IP, though some PC s used Novell and SNA over tokenring to make terminal emulation to the mainframe possible.
No IP. Sounds weird in today s world but DECnet eventually connected everything. We got a *very* early Cisco router that did level 1
DECnet routing between the corporate ethernet and the finance dept token ring. Another (DEC) box that routed DECnet over Datanet/1 (that s X25 in Europe IIRC). The mainframe used an SNA/DECnet gateway (the big channel attached box).
The RS/6000 and the Motorola systems also ran DECnet, endnode only.
To make this a little interesting we ran the first FDDI network in the Netherlands.
Trouble shooting wasn t always easy, especially if the SNA/DECnet gateway was involved!
Hans
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens Jason Stevens Verzonden: dinsdag, juli 2011 21:10 Aan: hecnet at update.uu.se Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
AIX and decnet? now that'd be ... non conformist & fun!
Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht. Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 10.0.1388 / Virusdatabase: 1516/3760 - datum van uitgifte: 07/12/11
I think they call that 'interesting times' ;)
On 12/07/11 21:27, H Vlems wrote:
Remember what I wrote: this happened nearly two decades ago.
IP is the protocol that survived and most people aren t even aware what happened on local area networks before, say,1998.
I worked for Fuji, photosensitive films, paper and offset printing products.
Most of the IT equipment was made by DEC: PDP-11 s (/44, /84, /93, /24, /73 and /23), VAXes, an IBM mainframe (4081) and PC s.
And lots of other gear, most of it in the research lab. A Motorola box that ran Motorola Unix, and an RS/6000 under AIX 2.4 (?).
The lingua franca was DECnet and LAT. No IP, though some PC s used Novell and SNA over tokenring to make terminal emulation to the mainframe possible.
No IP. Sounds weird in today s world but DECnet eventually connected everything. We got a *very* early Cisco router that did level 1
DECnet routing between the corporate ethernet and the finance dept token ring. Another (DEC) box that routed DECnet over Datanet/1 (that s X25 in Europe IIRC). The mainframe used an SNA/DECnet gateway (the big channel attached box).
The RS/6000 and the Motorola systems also ran DECnet, endnode only.
To make this a little interesting we ran the first FDDI network in the Netherlands.
Trouble shooting wasn t always easy, especially if the SNA/DECnet gateway was involved!
Hans
It used to, at least around 1995 or so.
I
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 19:32:44
To: <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
Oh AIX can run DECNET?
I might be able to procure one..
Sampsa
On 12 Jul 2011, at 19:19, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
You must have been dying of boredom to start a hobby like that :-)
To stay on topic (somewhat): why no RS/6000 under AIX? That platform can run DECnet at least.
I'm not so sure about the AS/400, only had to deal with it once so far. IP, not a DECnet problem IIRC.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 19:00:59
To: <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Sampsa
Oh AIX can run DECNET?
I might be able to procure one..
Sampsa
On 12 Jul 2011, at 19:19, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
You must have been dying of boredom to start a hobby like that :-)
To stay on topic (somewhat): why no RS/6000 under AIX? That platform can run DECnet at least.
I'm not so sure about the AS/400, only had to deal with it once so far. IP, not a DECnet problem IIRC.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 19:00:59
To: <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Sampsa
You must have been dying of boredom to start a hobby like that :-)
To stay on topic (somewhat): why no RS/6000 under AIX? That platform can run DECnet at least.
I'm not so sure about the AS/400, only had to deal with it once so far. IP, not a DECnet problem IIRC.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 19:00:59
To: <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Sampsa
Sampsa,
I acquired an AS/400 box a few years ago. It is about the size of half a "standard" refrigerator and was at least a two-man lift (fortunately, I was able to roll it). I've been trying to obtain a demo copy of the OS with no luck. I'm fairly certain one may be better off trying to emulate the hardware (I was able to do this with either OS/390 or Z on a mainframe emulator several years ago). Still no luck in the AS/400 space ...
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Sampsa
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 2:00 PM, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote:
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Sampsa
Hello!
Strangely enough the IBM website should still have information on
them. As for buying one, I suspect there's a good used equipment
broker where you are based.
For my part I was interested in the one that's about the size of a
hardcover book with the PCMCIA interface to the host.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Sampsa
I've been reprogramming a DECserver 90M, and using it to connect to fafner.dyndns.org which is a mighty fine VAX and nicely configured with my kind of software.
Using someone else's machine that is running 24/7 as opposed to your own suddenly feels like you are doing the world a favor by sharing resources, rather than running a machine yourself.
Mind, having said that, the AS1000A+BA356 in the basement needs turning off...
Still, I do like the hum of RHESUS and CHIMPY in the machine room, there's just something so geektastic about all those blinking lights and noises.
So I'm killing the planet, big whoop..
Sampsa
On 08/07/11 23:25, Mark Benson wrote:
On 8 Jul 2011, at 22:44, Sampsa Laine wrote:
Realistically what would it draw, compared to say an Alphaserver 4100 with two BA365s, fully populated?
I've got some space in a rack in my machine room, with air conditioning :)
I'm not sure about the AlphaServer, but A rx6000 with 2 Itanium 2 single core units draws 340-370 Watts and kicks out monster amounts of heat for a 2U.
If you want to effectively virtualise OpenVMS you'd be way better off running small x86_64 VMs with an Alpha or VAX emulator on a multi-core x86_64 server. Cost weighting of purchase vs. running costs makes way more sense.
I've been reprogramming a DECserver 90M, and using it to connect to fafner.dyndns.org which is a mighty fine VAX and nicely configured with my kind of software.
Using someone else's machine that is running 24/7 as opposed to your own suddenly feels like you are doing the world a favor by sharing resources, rather than running a machine yourself.
Mind, having said that, the AS1000A+BA356 in the basement needs turning off...
Regards, Mark.
On 8 Jul 2011, at 22:44, Sampsa Laine wrote:
Realistically what would it draw, compared to say an Alphaserver 4100 with two BA365s, fully populated?
I've got some space in a rack in my machine room, with air conditioning :)
I'm not sure about the AlphaServer, but A rx6000 with 2 Itanium 2 single core units draws 340-370 Watts and kicks out monster amounts of heat for a 2U.
If you want to effectively virtualise OpenVMS you'd be way better off running small x86_64 VMs with an Alpha or VAX emulator on a multi-core x86_64 server. Cost weighting of purchase vs. running costs makes way more sense.
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
On 8 Jul 2011, at 22:55, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
My alphaserver 1200 with two 5/533 cpus, 4GB memory and 8 disks internally draws 500 Watts. That's 12 kWhr each day, around 2,5 per day.
A fully loaded 4100 has 4 cpus and draws as much as 650 W (swag).
My monthly power bill is 140 / month. No way I'll run systems 24/7 ever again.
An integrity is not an option I guess.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
Not for one user I suppose - but if someone wanted to run one, I'd rent a VM off it for a reasonable share of the operating costs..
Sampsa
My alphaserver 1200 with two 5/533 cpus, 4GB memory and 8 disks internally draws 500 Watts. That's 12 kWhr each day, around 2,5 per day.
A fully loaded 4100 has 4 cpus and draws as much as 650 W (swag).
My monthly power bill is 140 / month. No way I'll run systems 24/7 ever again.
An integrity is not an option I guess.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2011 22:44:56
To: <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] House heater anyone?
Realistically what would it draw, compared to say an Alphaserver 4100 with two BA365s, fully populated?
I've got some space in a rack in my machine room, with air conditioning :)
Sampsa
On 8 Jul 2011, at 22:42, Mark Benson wrote:
On 8 Jul 2011, at 21:38, Sampsa Laine wrote:
On 8 Jul 2011, at 21:33, Joe Ferraro wrote:
The rx4640 should hold four dual-core I2s (1.6GHz / 24MB L3), and should have Madison / Tukwila availability to allow one to run openVMS under HP Integrity Virtual Machines.
That'd be kinda cool, if we stuffed it full of RAM we could be provisioning little virtual VMS 8.4 IA64 boxes to people on HECNET, no? Virtual DECNET hosting :)
Good luck raising the mortgage to pa y the electric bill for running hat monster 24/7. Most data centres would kill your wallet to host something like that because of the power and heat dissipation problems vs. the tweeny little dual-core 1U rack units most web hosting companies use. :)
It's a cool idea though all the same!
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
Realistically what would it draw, compared to say an Alphaserver 4100 with two BA365s, fully populated?
I've got some space in a rack in my machine room, with air conditioning :)
Sampsa
On 8 Jul 2011, at 22:42, Mark Benson wrote:
On 8 Jul 2011, at 21:38, Sampsa Laine wrote:
On 8 Jul 2011, at 21:33, Joe Ferraro wrote:
The rx4640 should hold four dual-core I2s (1.6GHz / 24MB L3), and should have Madison / Tukwila availability to allow one to run openVMS under HP Integrity Virtual Machines.
That'd be kinda cool, if we stuffed it full of RAM we could be provisioning little virtual VMS 8.4 IA64 boxes to people on HECNET, no? Virtual DECNET hosting :)
Good luck raising the mortgage to pa y the electric bill for running hat monster 24/7. Most data centres would kill your wallet to host something like that because of the power and heat dissipation problems vs. the tweeny little dual-core 1U rack units most web hosting companies use. :)
It's a cool idea though all the same!
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
On 8 Jul 2011, at 21:38, Sampsa Laine wrote:
On 8 Jul 2011, at 21:33, Joe Ferraro wrote:
The rx4640 should hold four dual-core I2s (1.6GHz / 24MB L3), and should have Madison / Tukwila availability to allow one to run openVMS under HP Integrity Virtual Machines.
That'd be kinda cool, if we stuffed it full of RAM we could be provisioning little virtual VMS 8.4 IA64 boxes to people on HECNET, no? Virtual DECNET hosting :)
Good luck raising the mortgage to pa y the electric bill for running hat monster 24/7. Most data centres would kill your wallet to host something like that because of the power and heat dissipation problems vs. the tweeny little dual-core 1U rack units most web hosting companies use. :)
It's a cool idea though all the same!
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
Somewhat related to the virtual VMS box provision, I've been playing with FreeAXP and have a Tru64 v5 box up now.
Let me know if anyone wants access..
Sampsa
On 8 Jul 2011, at 21:33, Joe Ferraro wrote:
The rx4640 should hold four dual-core I2s (1.6GHz / 24MB L3), and should have Madison / Tukwila availability to allow one to run openVMS under HP Integrity Virtual Machines.
That'd be kinda cool, if we stuffed it full of RAM we could be provisioning little virtual VMS 8.4 IA64 boxes to people on HECNET, no? Virtual DECNET hosting :)
Sampsa
The rx4640 is interesting as it makes use of so-called "cell"-architecture, unlike the single-
"cell" "entry-level" systems (like the rx1600/rx1620, zx6000/rx2600/rx2620 and so forth), thus
a bit more like the 'big iron' Integrity systems (like the rx7620, rx8620 and the Superdome).
I believe the rx4640 can take two, which can be fitted with four single-core processors each
or two "mx2" dual-processor modules (as seen in the first Integrity Superdome systems).
It certainly matters not; however, I believe myself to be correct in stating that cell architecture begins at the rx76 level and above.The non-cell rx6600, for example, is considered "entry level", is fashioned for the [mostly non-existent] HP/UX app-tier space due to the large number of onboard SAS drives (I have eight... I believe it will hold 16). Otherwise, a large number of onboard drives, as you've alluded, is pointless since HP/UX finds itself mostly within the database tier (rx7640, etc.. hold four onboard u320s). Boot from SAN with HP/UX is, again, rare (said "pointless"), since the complication that ensues has little (if any) return on investment excepting, perhaps, infrastructure based disaster recovery.
The rx4640 should hold four dual-core I2s (1.6GHz / 24MB L3), and should have Madison / Tukwila availability to allow one to run openVMS under HP Integrity Virtual Machines.
On 8 Jul 2011, at 15:29, Gregg Levine wrote:
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote:
Just to remind you guys that the live feed is running from NASA for the last
space shuttle launch.
http://countdown.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/countdown/cdt/http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html
Regards, Mark.
Hello!
Of course Mark. But the weather may cause it to be scrubbed, because
right now they are experiencing the worst weather in about seven
years. Which for Florida is a good thing. They need more rain then we
do.
You'll get a much better feed from www.spacevidcast.com in HD and you can chat to other space geeks while you are watching.
I'm an active spaceflight enthusiast, thanks to the power of Twitter. I went to Florida to see the launch of STS-134 (last flight of Endeavour) but missed it due to the scrub :( I know a ton of people on-site at KSC and around the area at the moment who are all waiting with baited breath.
Weather was quoted as 30% go but it's not looking too bad - might be a chance to launch today. If not it's improving over the weekend.
Oh and GO ATLANTIS!! :)
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
On 8-7-2011 12:10, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Maybe time to curb this discussion? It has nothing to do with HECnet, and it's becoming quite a few posts... Not everyone on this list even runs VMS, or cares about itaniums... :-)
Feel free to continue it in direct mails, or some other forum perhaps?
Okay, will do.
- MG
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote:
Just to remind you guys that the live feed is running from NASA for the last
space shuttle launch.
http://countdown.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/countdown/cdt/http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html
Regards, Mark.
Hello!
Of course Mark. But the weather may cause it to be scrubbed, because
right now they are experiencing the worst weather in about seven
years. Which for Florida is a good thing. They need more rain then we
do.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On 8.7.2011 13:52, Mark Wickens wrote:
On 08/07/11 11:42, Kari Uusim ki wrote:
On 8.7.2011 12:58, Mark Wickens wrote:
On 08/07/11 10:56, Kari Uusim ki wrote:
On 8.7.2011 12:51, Mark Benson wrote:
On 8 Jul 2011, at 10:38, Kari Uusim ki wrote:
If you have a MP card on a Integrity server (or workstation) and
need _only_ the (local) console function, you can use a regular
25-pin null modem cable to access the console functions and of
course the other MP functions as well. The 25-pin interface is wired
so that the console uses the standard pins (2,3 and 7).
Of course you can use the LAN console functions provided with the MP
card. In some cases only the MP serial interface will be accessible
and usable.
The MP card is otherwise useful also. E.g. if the machine crashes,
you'll be able to check the logs for what has happened or if the
machine is completely jammed, you can reset it remotely.
I've heard a few people say the Remote MP card doesn't work on the
zx6000 - It's gotta be a firmware setting somewhere as the zx6000 and
rx2600 are the same machine with different fas and a firmware switch
changed.
I have a zx6000 with the MP card and it functions exactly like on a
rx2600 or any other Integrity system.
Do you get a graphics display via the VGA port though? That's the bit
that I was under the impression was broken when putting the MP card in
the ZX6000. I've never got anything out of it, anyway...
Oh, yes, and I've put a 25pin to 9pin cable in the serial port and can
confirm it works nicely.
Regards, Mark.
.
I write directly to you now, because Johnny wanted to end the
discussion via the HECnet mailbox.
I found this note in the manual:
The graphics display port functionality on the HP Management
Processor Card is not supported on zx6000 workstations with an
AGP graphics card installed; all other HP Management Processor
Card functionality is supported.
That explains why the VGA port doesn't work if you have a graphics
card installed.
Regards,
Kari
Yes, I can confirm it doesn't work with a PCI ATI 7500 installed either.
I think it must be something to do with the configuration including the
AGP card cage, regardless of whether there is a graphics card installed
or not. I think I tried it without a card in aswell, no joy.
Regards, Mark.
.
I see. I haven't really made so much effort as to try the VGA port, because the graphics card was installed. If it hadn't been, most probably I would have done all possible research to get the VGA working. I remember reading something about the I/O definitions in EFI which affect the VGA port also, but since it is more than two years ago, I've forgot it.
I guess that the VGA port was more or less included for Linux or Windows use rather than for HP-UX or VMS.
I can see what I can find out about the VGA port and if there's any possibilities to use it with VMS. I really do doubt it, because the demand for VMS workstations has been next to nothing for years already and taken the VMS engineering efforts (in India) my doubts don't diminish. I talked to the people from the VMS Engineering last September when they were in Europe and even though they are friendly and nice, the message without words was that they only concentrate on brand new systems and do support on old systems only on demand basis.
In the case of zx6000, I assume it wasn't really meant to be a VMS workstation, but because the rx2600 is the same hardware except for the AGP slot, there wasn't a big effort to port an Ati Radeon 7500 driver (which existed already for Alpha) to make the zx6000 usable as a VMS workstation and then be added to the marketing material.
Regards,
Kari
On 8 Jul 2011, at 11:10, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Maybe time to curb this discussion? It has nothing to do with HECnet, and it's becoming quite a few posts... Not everyone on this list even runs VMS, or cares about itaniums... :-)
Feel free to continue it in direct mails, or some other forum perhaps?
Sorry - my bad :\
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
