Paul. In 1991 there was no fast ethernet as we know it today. Ethernet over glassfiber was proprietary and by and large restricted to 10 Mb/s.
The problems with the redesign had tot do with emulating FDDI's built in redundancy with ethernet.
------Origineel bericht------
Van: Paul Koning
Afzender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Beantwoorden: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
Verzonden: 12 juli 2011 23:38
On Jul 12, 2011, at 5:29 PM, <hvlems at zonnet.nl> <hvlems at zonnet.nl> wrote:
It took HP until 2006 to replace the FDDI lan with ethernet technolgy. The fault tolerance of FDDI and the build quality of DEC's gigaswitch products.
The bandwidth of FDDI is a lot better than fast ethernet.
Not true, not unless the implementation is crummy. Any halfway decent fast Ethernet host will run at wire speed, and the difference between 1500 and 4460 MTU isn't enough to amount to very much.
paul
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
On 2011-07-12 23:14, Joe Ferraro wrote:
While we are on the topic, does anyone have any experience with TOPS-20
/ DECNET? I've haven't had time to mess with it of late, but I was
unsuccessful in a previous evening's attempt or two.
Well, doh...! :-)
.ncp tell sol sho exec cha
Node characteristics as of 12-JUL-11 23:38:44
Executor node = 59.10 (SOL)
Identification = Systems Concepts SF CA USA - SC30M - DN-20 4.0, Management v
ersion = 4.0.0
Loop count = 1, Loop length = 127
Loop with = Mixed, Incoming timer = 30
Outgoing timer = 60, NSP version = 4.0.0
Maximum links = 65535, Delay factor = 48
Delay weight = 10
Inactivity timer = 120, Retransmit factor = 10
Routing version = 2.0.0, Type = Routing IV
Routing timer = 600
Broadcast routing timer = 40, Maximum address = 1023
Maximum circuits = 20
Maximum cost = 100
Maximum hops = 16, Maximum visits = 20
Maximum broadcast endnodes = 64
Maximum broadcast routers = 32
Maximum buffers = 80, Buffer size = 576
Segment buffer size = 576
.
So, yes, there are people around... Like I said - not everyone on this list is even running a VMS system...
Johnny
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com
<mailto:md.benson at gmail.com>> wrote:
On 12 Jul 2011, at 21:48, hvlems at zonnet.nl <mailto:hvlems at zonnet.nl>
wrote:
> DECnet/AIX was a 3rd party effort IIRC
> I haven't searched the internet yet but who knows what is available.
> Perhaps the opensource decnet kit may be portable.
I know there's a DECNet kit for Linux out there somewhere. Not sure
about anything else. Nothing crops up on a quick Google search that
isn't dated early 90s.
> I wasn't aware that AIX was so hobbyist friendly. The hardware is
vey unfamiliar for me though.
The hardware is generally pretty unique (save for it's similarity in
patches to PPC Macs) - all IBM stuff generally is. The OS is
proprietary but you can pick up media kits off eBay for not a lot.
Also IBM documentation, certainly for RS/6000 / pSeries hardware and
AIX, is readily available online without even needing a login.
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
FDDI was great in 1991. It could easily span a large multi building site (> 4 km^2) and with a bandwidth that was better than that of fast ethernet. That didn't exist at the time, 100VG was on the drawing boards. The other alternative was 155 Mb/s ATM but that technology never really took off (in Europe, dunno about the US).
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
From: Jason Stevens <neozeed at gmail.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:31:03 -0400
To: <hecnet at update.uu.se>
ReplyTo: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
FEC (fast ether channel) killed any hopes of FDDI, but it was more so people in certain places that bought into the hopes and dreams of FDDI....
It was also my understanding you needed licenses to make FDDI gear while Ethernet was/is free.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:29 PM, <hvlems at zonnet.nl> wrote:
It took HP until 2006 to replace the FDDI lan with ethernet technolgy. The fault tolerance of FDDI and the build quality of DEC's gigaswitch products.
The bandwidth of FDDI is a lot better than fast ethernet.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
From: Joe Ferraro <jferraro at gmail.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:12:02 -0400
To: <hecnet at update.uu.se>
ReplyTo: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
Off topic... I received a page, a few weeks prior, on a machine that was not pinging. Turns out, it was one of a few old NOVA class boxes we still have at my work, using FDDI for connectivity. Fortunately, a disconnect / reconnect brought the ring back online; I was scared (and a bit excited in a strange way) for a few moments that I was going to have to do some extensive troubleshooting... FDDI still lives.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:27 PM, H Vlems <hvlems at zonnet.nl> wrote:
Remember what I wrote: this happened nearly two decades ago.
IP is the protocol that survived and most people aren t even aware what happened on local area networks before, say,1998.
I worked for Fuji, photosensitive films, paper and offset printing products.
Most of the IT equipment was made by DEC: PDP-11 s (/44, /84, /93, /24, /73 and /23), VAXes, an IBM mainframe (4081) and PC s.
And lots of other gear, most of it in the research lab. A Motorola box that ran Motorola Unix, and an RS/6000 under AIX 2.4 (?).
The lingua franca was DECnet and LAT. No IP, though some PC s used Novell and SNA over tokenring to make terminal emulation to the mainframe possible.
No IP. Sounds weird in today s world but DECnet eventually connected everything. We got a *very* early Cisco router that did level 1
DECnet routing between the corporate ethernet and the finance dept token ring. Another (DEC) box that routed DECnet over Datanet/1 (that s X25 in Europe IIRC). The mainframe used an SNA/DECnet gateway (the big channel attached box).
The RS/6000 and the Motorola systems also ran DECnet, endnode only.
To make this a little interesting we ran the first FDDI network in the Netherlands.
Trouble shooting wasn t always easy, especially if the SNA/DECnet gateway was involved!
Hans
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens Jason Stevens Verzonden: dinsdag, juli 2011 21:10 Aan: hecnet at update.uu.se Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
AIX and decnet? now that'd be ... non conformist & fun!
Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht. Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 10.0.1388 / Virusdatabase: 1516/3760 - datum van uitgifte: 07/12/11
On Jul 12, 2011, at 5:31 PM, Jason Stevens wrote:
FEC (fast ether channel) killed any hopes of FDDI, but it was more so people in certain places that bought into the hopes and dreams of FDDI....
It was also my understanding you needed licenses to make FDDI gear while Ethernet was/is free.
No. But the chips were far more expensive and you needed more of them to make a NIC. While it was in theory possible to make a single chip FDDI NIC, I don't think that was ever produced. And even if it were, the volumes would be far lower which means the price is far higher.
paul
I thought all the new ethernet stuff does jumbo frames for those that like that kind of thing anyways....
Not true, not unless the implementation is crummy. Any halfway decent fast Ethernet host will run at wire speed, and the difference between 1500 and 4460 MTU isn't enough to amount to very much.
paul
On Jul 12, 2011, at 5:29 PM, <hvlems at zonnet.nl> <hvlems at zonnet.nl> wrote:
It took HP until 2006 to replace the FDDI lan with ethernet technolgy. The fault tolerance of FDDI and the build quality of DEC's gigaswitch products.
The bandwidth of FDDI is a lot better than fast ethernet.
Not true, not unless the implementation is crummy. Any halfway decent fast Ethernet host will run at wire speed, and the difference between 1500 and 4460 MTU isn't enough to amount to very much.
paul
While we are on the topic, does anyone have any experience with TOPS-20 / DECNET? I've haven't had time to mess with it of late, but I was unsuccessful in a previous evening's attempt or two.
I've had mixed luck with it. I did manage to get it up and running on my Panda distribution, but then I changed DECnet addresses, and my attempt to get it working again didn't go well. I believe that NCP continued to complain that my DECnet address was invalid (perhaps saying that the number was greater than 63, but it wasn't).
I don't have the system up right now and I'm remote at the moment, but if there are any specifics I can try to recall for you, I'll do what I can.
I will say that I modified the hardware address of the Unix (Solaris, in my case) network interface and also in the Panda configuration for the NI device to reflect the appropriate AA-00-04-00-xx-xx value. The place where I got stuck was in the NCP configuration in whichever <SYSTEM> .CMD file it was that the system uses at boot time.
--Marc
FEC (fast ether channel) killed any hopes of FDDI, but it was more so people in certain places that bought into the hopes and dreams of FDDI....
It was also my understanding you needed licenses to make FDDI gear while Ethernet was/is free.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:29 PM, <hvlems at zonnet.nl> wrote:
It took HP until 2006 to replace the FDDI lan with ethernet technolgy. The fault tolerance of FDDI and the build quality of DEC's gigaswitch products.
The bandwidth of FDDI is a lot better than fast ethernet.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
From: Joe Ferraro <jferraro at gmail.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:12:02 -0400
To: <hecnet at update.uu.se>
ReplyTo: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
Off topic... I received a page, a few weeks prior, on a machine that was not pinging. Turns out, it was one of a few old NOVA class boxes we still have at my work, using FDDI for connectivity. Fortunately, a disconnect / reconnect brought the ring back online; I was scared (and a bit excited in a strange way) for a few moments that I was going to have to do some extensive troubleshooting... FDDI still lives.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:27 PM, H Vlems <hvlems at zonnet.nl> wrote:
Remember what I wrote: this happened nearly two decades ago.
IP is the protocol that survived and most people aren t even aware what happened on local area networks before, say,1998.
I worked for Fuji, photosensitive films, paper and offset printing products.
Most of the IT equipment was made by DEC: PDP-11 s (/44, /84, /93, /24, /73 and /23), VAXes, an IBM mainframe (4081) and PC s.
And lots of other gear, most of it in the research lab. A Motorola box that ran Motorola Unix, and an RS/6000 under AIX 2.4 (?).
The lingua franca was DECnet and LAT. No IP, though some PC s used Novell and SNA over tokenring to make terminal emulation to the mainframe possible.
No IP. Sounds weird in today s world but DECnet eventually connected everything. We got a *very* early Cisco router that did level 1
DECnet routing between the corporate ethernet and the finance dept token ring. Another (DEC) box that routed DECnet over Datanet/1 (that s X25 in Europe IIRC). The mainframe used an SNA/DECnet gateway (the big channel attached box).
The RS/6000 and the Motorola systems also ran DECnet, endnode only.
To make this a little interesting we ran the first FDDI network in the Netherlands.
Trouble shooting wasn t always easy, especially if the SNA/DECnet gateway was involved!
Hans
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens Jason Stevens Verzonden: dinsdag, juli 2011 21:10 Aan: hecnet at update.uu.se Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
AIX and decnet? now that'd be ... non conformist & fun!
Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht. Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 10.0.1388 / Virusdatabase: 1516/3760 - datum van uitgifte: 07/12/11
It took HP until 2006 to replace the FDDI lan with ethernet technolgy. The fault tolerance of FDDI and the build quality of DEC's gigaswitch products.
The bandwidth of FDDI is a lot better than fast ethernet.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
From: Joe Ferraro <jferraro at gmail.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:12:02 -0400
To: <hecnet at update.uu.se>
ReplyTo: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
Off topic... I received a page, a few weeks prior, on a machine that was not pinging. Turns out, it was one of a few old NOVA class boxes we still have at my work, using FDDI for connectivity. Fortunately, a disconnect / reconnect brought the ring back online; I was scared (and a bit excited in a strange way) for a few moments that I was going to have to do some extensive troubleshooting... FDDI still lives.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:27 PM, H Vlems <hvlems at zonnet.nl> wrote:
Remember what I wrote: this happened nearly two decades ago.
IP is the protocol that survived and most people aren t even aware what happened on local area networks before, say,1998.
I worked for Fuji, photosensitive films, paper and offset printing products.
Most of the IT equipment was made by DEC: PDP-11 s (/44, /84, /93, /24, /73 and /23), VAXes, an IBM mainframe (4081) and PC s.
And lots of other gear, most of it in the research lab. A Motorola box that ran Motorola Unix, and an RS/6000 under AIX 2.4 (?).
The lingua franca was DECnet and LAT. No IP, though some PC s used Novell and SNA over tokenring to make terminal emulation to the mainframe possible.
No IP. Sounds weird in today s world but DECnet eventually connected everything. We got a *very* early Cisco router that did level 1
DECnet routing between the corporate ethernet and the finance dept token ring. Another (DEC) box that routed DECnet over Datanet/1 (that s X25 in Europe IIRC). The mainframe used an SNA/DECnet gateway (the big channel attached box).
The RS/6000 and the Motorola systems also ran DECnet, endnode only.
To make this a little interesting we ran the first FDDI network in the Netherlands.
Trouble shooting wasn t always easy, especially if the SNA/DECnet gateway was involved!
Hans
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens Jason Stevens Verzonden: dinsdag, juli 2011 21:10 Aan: hecnet at update.uu.se Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
AIX and decnet? now that'd be ... non conformist & fun!
Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht. Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 10.0.1388 / Virusdatabase: 1516/3760 - datum van uitgifte: 07/12/11
Wow I haven't touched FDDI since ... 2001? There was some AT&T X11 NCR monster (something like a 32way pentium running SYSVr4) serving out all these tn3270 sessions to Windows NT 4.0 & Hummingbird eXceede.... Because AT&T was just plain weird with their mainframe... You couldn't get a SNA LU6.2 or 3270 session from them, but instead tn3270 that was even more so quirky regarding it's timing (for those who have used cisco routers for local ack to fake out the constant chatter in SNA)... Anyways the giant glorified PC was connected via FDDI to a cisco 7000. The one day it went down, I just broke the ring, and made it a single connection and it came up.
Ugh it was such a disaster, it was almost a happy day when they rolled in with 8 way PIII's ... to run the same tn3270 thing.
While on these grueling 3+ hour phone calls with AT&T they actually hired someone that would run ping....
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Joe Ferraro <jferraro at gmail.com> wrote:
Off topic... I received a page, a few weeks prior, on a machine that was not pinging. Turns out, it was one of a few old NOVA class boxes we still have at my work, using FDDI for connectivity. Fortunately, a disconnect / reconnect brought the ring back online; I was scared (and a bit excited in a strange way) for a few moments that I was going to have to do some extensive troubleshooting... FDDI still lives.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:27 PM, H Vlems <hvlems at zonnet.nl> wrote:
Remember what I wrote: this happened nearly two decades ago.
IP is the protocol that survived and most people aren t even aware what happened on local area networks before, say,1998.
I worked for Fuji, photosensitive films, paper and offset printing products.
Most of the IT equipment was made by DEC: PDP-11 s (/44, /84, /93, /24, /73 and /23), VAXes, an IBM mainframe (4081) and PC s.
And lots of other gear, most of it in the research lab. A Motorola box that ran Motorola Unix, and an RS/6000 under AIX 2.4 (?).
The lingua franca was DECnet and LAT. No IP, though some PC s used Novell and SNA over tokenring to make terminal emulation to the mainframe possible.
No IP. Sounds weird in today s world but DECnet eventually connected everything. We got a *very* early Cisco router that did level 1
DECnet routing between the corporate ethernet and the finance dept token ring. Another (DEC) box that routed DECnet over Datanet/1 (that s X25 in Europe IIRC). The mainframe used an SNA/DECnet gateway (the big channel attached box).
The RS/6000 and the Motorola systems also ran DECnet, endnode only.
To make this a little interesting we ran the first FDDI network in the Netherlands.
Trouble shooting wasn t always easy, especially if the SNA/DECnet gateway was involved!
Hans
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens Jason Stevens Verzonden: dinsdag, juli 2011 21:10 Aan: hecnet at update.uu.se Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
AIX and decnet? now that'd be ... non conformist & fun!
Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht. Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 10.0.1388 / Virusdatabase: 1516/3760 - datum van uitgifte: 07/12/11
Joe, perhaps others know about that: my knowledge about TOPS is zero.
You night want to discuss it with the folks at alt,sys.pdp10
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
From: Joe Ferraro <jferraro at gmail.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 17:14:16 -0400
To: <hecnet at update.uu.se>
ReplyTo: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
While we are on the topic, does anyone have any experience with TOPS-20 / DECNET? I've haven't had time to mess with it of late, but I was unsuccessful in a previous evening's attempt or two.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
On 12 Jul 2011, at 21:48, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
> DECnet/AIX was a 3rd party effort IIRC
> I haven't searched the internet yet but who knows what is available.
> Perhaps the opensource decnet kit may be portable.
I know there's a DECNet kit for Linux out there somewhere. Not sure about anything else. Nothing crops up on a quick Google search that isn't dated early 90s.
> I wasn't aware that AIX was so hobbyist friendly. The hardware is vey unfamiliar for me though.
The hardware is generally pretty unique (save for it's similarity in patches to PPC Macs) - all IBM stuff generally is. The OS is proprietary but you can pick up media kits off eBay for not a lot. Also IBM documentation, certainly for RS/6000 / pSeries hardware and AIX, is readily available online without even needing a login.
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
While we are on the topic, does anyone have any experience with TOPS-20 / DECNET? I've haven't had time to mess with it of late, but I was unsuccessful in a previous evening's attempt or two.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
On 12 Jul 2011, at 21:48, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
> DECnet/AIX was a 3rd party effort IIRC
> I haven't searched the internet yet but who knows what is available.
> Perhaps the opensource decnet kit may be portable.
I know there's a DECNet kit for Linux out there somewhere. Not sure about anything else. Nothing crops up on a quick Google search that isn't dated early 90s.
> I wasn't aware that AIX was so hobbyist friendly. The hardware is vey unfamiliar for me though.
The hardware is generally pretty unique (save for it's similarity in patches to PPC Macs) - all IBM stuff generally is. The OS is proprietary but you can pick up media kits off eBay for not a lot. Also IBM documentation, certainly for RS/6000 / pSeries hardware and AIX, is readily available online without even needing a login.
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
Off topic... I received a page, a few weeks prior, on a machine that was not pinging. Turns out, it was one of a few old NOVA class boxes we still have at my work, using FDDI for connectivity. Fortunately, a disconnect / reconnect brought the ring back online; I was scared (and a bit excited in a strange way) for a few moments that I was going to have to do some extensive troubleshooting... FDDI still lives.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:27 PM, H Vlems <hvlems at zonnet.nl> wrote:
Remember what I wrote: this happened nearly two decades ago.
IP is the protocol that survived and most people aren t even aware what happened on local area networks before, say,1998.
I worked for Fuji, photosensitive films, paper and offset printing products.
Most of the IT equipment was made by DEC: PDP-11 s (/44, /84, /93, /24, /73 and /23), VAXes, an IBM mainframe (4081) and PC s.
And lots of other gear, most of it in the research lab. A Motorola box that ran Motorola Unix, and an RS/6000 under AIX 2.4 (?).
The lingua franca was DECnet and LAT. No IP, though some PC s used Novell and SNA over tokenring to make terminal emulation to the mainframe possible.
No IP. Sounds weird in today s world but DECnet eventually connected everything. We got a *very* early Cisco router that did level 1
DECnet routing between the corporate ethernet and the finance dept token ring. Another (DEC) box that routed DECnet over Datanet/1 (that s X25 in Europe IIRC). The mainframe used an SNA/DECnet gateway (the big channel attached box).
The RS/6000 and the Motorola systems also ran DECnet, endnode only.
To make this a little interesting we ran the first FDDI network in the Netherlands.
Trouble shooting wasn t always easy, especially if the SNA/DECnet gateway was involved!
Hans
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens Jason Stevens Verzonden: dinsdag, juli 2011 21:10 Aan: hecnet at update.uu.se Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
AIX and decnet? now that'd be ... non conformist & fun!
Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht. Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 10.0.1388 / Virusdatabase: 1516/3760 - datum van uitgifte: 07/12/11
On 12 Jul 2011, at 21:48, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
DECnet/AIX was a 3rd party effort IIRC
I haven't searched the internet yet but who knows what is available.
Perhaps the opensource decnet kit may be portable.
I know there's a DECNet kit for Linux out there somewhere. Not sure about anything else. Nothing crops up on a quick Google search that isn't dated early 90s.
I wasn't aware that AIX was so hobbyist friendly. The hardware is vey unfamiliar for me though.
The hardware is generally pretty unique (save for it's similarity in patches to PPC Macs) - all IBM stuff generally is. The OS is proprietary but you can pick up media kits off eBay for not a lot. Also IBM documentation, certainly for RS/6000 / pSeries hardware and AIX, is readily available online without even needing a login.
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
That was a real surprise for me also. I assumed the only way to talk to IBM machines from the Digital world was the SNA Gateway. In early -90's when I was involved in making a IBM mainframe and the VMS environment (=DECnet) to communicate, there was the SNA Gateway in between.
When the communication was established, it worked fine. No problems that I ever heard of.
It interest me also to find a DECnet implementation for RS/6000. If anyone knows where to find one, please let me know.
I hate to admit (as an oath sworn DECcie) that I have a RS/6000 as a hobbyist system. In fact I have to admit that I do have most other unix platforms as well, because there are many interoperability things I've been exploring over time.
Kari
On 12.7.2011 21:35, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
It used to, at least around 1995 or so.
I
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Sampsa Laine<sampsa at mac.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 19:32:44
To:<hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
Oh AIX can run DECNET?
I might be able to procure one..
Sampsa
On 12 Jul 2011, at 19:19, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
You must have been dying of boredom to start a hobby like that :-)
To stay on topic (somewhat): why no RS/6000 under AIX? That platform can run DECnet at least.
I'm not so sure about the AS/400, only had to deal with it once so far. IP, not a DECnet problem IIRC.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Sampsa Laine<sampsa at mac.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 19:00:59
To:<hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Sampsa
You don't have to find old tapes for getting the Pathworks for OpenVMS (Netware) as it is called. On the VAX SPL's from 1995 to September 1998 you'll find the kit.
If you don't have the necessary SPL's, I can extract the kit from my SPL.
The licenses are more complicated to find as Pathworks licenses has never been available for hobbyists.
IIRC the Pathworks Netware implementation was at Netware V3.12. Compaq did put an end to that story and the development didn't reach the Netware V4.* level.
Kari
On 12.7.2011 22:40, Jason Stevens wrote:
I guess I got in at the end of the Netware years (Yeah I know
governments still use) and I did live through the entire Ethernet,
EthernetII, 802.2, 802.3 fiasco's (lol so much for standard....) All the
stuff we had midrange did speak IPX/SPX, from the NeXT to the RS/6000's
and PC's.... Oddly enough our VAX's actually had some netware thing. I
wish I'd managed to make copies of the tapes, but we did have Netware
for VAX/VMS.
For our mainframe access we used Novell's SAA gateway which... was
terrible, when Microsoft shipped SNA server 2.1 (was there a 1.0?!) we
RAN to that... And used it over IPX/SXP with people even using dialup
shiva's!
It wasn't until 95 with Microsoft including TCP/IP into the consumer OS
did it really start to matter.
Well from my POV anyways.
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:27 PM, H Vlems <hvlems at zonnet.nl
<mailto:hvlems at zonnet.nl>> wrote:
__
Remember what I wrote: this happened nearly two decades ago.____
IP is the protocol that survived and most people aren t even aware
what happened on local area networks before, say,1998.____
I worked for Fuji, photosensitive films, paper and offset printing
products.____
Most of the IT equipment was made by DEC: PDP-11 s (/44, /84, /93,
/24, /73 and /23), VAXes, an IBM mainframe (4081) and PC s.____
And lots of other gear, most of it in the research lab. A Motorola
box that ran Motorola Unix, and an RS/6000 under AIX 2.4 (?).____
The lingua franca was DECnet and LAT. No IP, though some PC s used
Novell and SNA over tokenring to make terminal emulation to the
mainframe possible.____
No IP. Sounds weird in today s world but DECnet eventually
connected everything. We got a **very** early Cisco router that did
level 1____
DECnet routing between the corporate ethernet and the finance dept
token ring. Another (DEC) box that routed DECnet over Datanet/1
(that s X25 in Europe IIRC). The mainframe used an SNA/DECnet
gateway (the big channel attached box).____
The RS/6000 and the Motorola systems also ran DECnet, endnode only.____
To make this a little interesting we ran the first FDDI network in
the Netherlands.____
Trouble shooting wasn t always easy, especially if the SNA/DECnet
gateway was involved!____
Hans____
__ __
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Van:*owner-__hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>__
[mailto:owner- <mailto:owner->__hecnet at Update.UU.SE
<mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>__] *Namens *Jason Stevens
*Verzonden:* dinsdag, juli 2011 21:10
*Aan:* hecnet at update.uu.se <mailto:hecnet at update.uu.se>
*Onderwerp:* Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....____
__ __
AIX and decnet? now that'd be ... non conformist & fun! ____
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht.
Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
Versie: 10.0.1388 / Virusdatabase: 1516/3760 - datum van uitgifte:
07/12/11____
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
On 12 Jul 2011, at 19:00, Sampsa Laine wrote:
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Don't buy an AS400. Buy an RS/6000 - you can pick up a decent one for anywhere between 50GBP and 5000 GBP :D
My personal home use favourites are the RS/6000 43P Model 150 (mini tower with PCI and a 640e Power PC), the 44P Model 170 (similar to 43P but POWER-III up to 450MHz) and the 7046-B50. All of them are workable in that they are quite, don't use MCA expansions and don't draw a fat lot of power. All of them will run AIX 5L too AFAIK which is relatively recent and well supported.
Nice thing about IBM too is the computer IS your OS license. Because no IBM RS/6000 (or any other system aside from x86 gear) is sold without an OS license, they don't bother printing them they just let anyone with hardware run the OS (support costs extra mind you). It's a nice touch and means AIX is very accessible as a Hobbyist. It's taken over my 'pet UNIX' slot from Solaris since Oracle castrated the free license.
Others mentioned DECNet will run on AIX, I suspect not on more modern versions but maybe 4.3.3 might run it?
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
Hello!
Mark those idiots at Oracle didn't kneecap the free license for
Solaris (also called SunOS, and a lot of nasty and disgusting words
which only a fellow use would understand,), they only threw more brick
walls to destroy to make use of it.
All that's needed besides a machine to operate it, is would you
believe, knowing the right people. It happens I have scads of those
copies staring at me right now.
I also have (she's currently asleep at the moment) a SPARC system
running Solaris 10 released in March of 2005.
Now what fool told you that? We can take that off list if you want.
Nice signature by the way, where did you find it?
And yes all of the above is indeed true. I spent most of my early
years arguing with systems like that. Also fighting with my ISP to get
better acceptance for non Windows systems other then the early efforts
of the Mac squad.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
DECnet/AIX was a 3rd party effort IIRC
I haven't searched the internet yet but who knows what is available.
Perhaps the opensource decnet kit may be portable.
I wasn't aware that AIX was so hobbyist friendly. The hardware is vey unfamiliar for me though.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 21:34:31
To: <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
On 12 Jul 2011, at 19:00, Sampsa Laine wrote:
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Don't buy an AS400. Buy an RS/6000 - you can pick up a decent one for anywhere between 50GBP and 5000 GBP :D
My personal home use favourites are the RS/6000 43P Model 150 (mini tower with PCI and a 640e Power PC), the 44P Model 170 (similar to 43P but POWER-III up to 450MHz) and the 7046-B50. All of them are workable in that they are quite, don't use MCA expansions and don't draw a fat lot of power. All of them will run AIX 5L too AFAIK which is relatively recent and well supported.
Nice thing about IBM too is the computer IS your OS license. Because no IBM RS/6000 (or any other system aside from x86 gear) is sold without an OS license, they don't bother printing them they just let anyone with hardware run the OS (support costs extra mind you). It's a nice touch and means AIX is very accessible as a Hobbyist. It's taken over my 'pet UNIX' slot from Solaris since Oracle castrated the free license.
Others mentioned DECNet will run on AIX, I suspect not on more modern versions but maybe 4.3.3 might run it?
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
On 12 Jul 2011, at 19:00, Sampsa Laine wrote:
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
How much do these things cost (like say a 93 vintage), weigh and dissipate heat? Also, how do you hook them up?
Don't buy an AS400. Buy an RS/6000 - you can pick up a decent one for anywhere between 50GBP and 5000 GBP :D
My personal home use favourites are the RS/6000 43P Model 150 (mini tower with PCI and a 640e Power PC), the 44P Model 170 (similar to 43P but POWER-III up to 450MHz) and the 7046-B50. All of them are workable in that they are quite, don't use MCA expansions and don't draw a fat lot of power. All of them will run AIX 5L too AFAIK which is relatively recent and well supported.
Nice thing about IBM too is the computer IS your OS license. Because no IBM RS/6000 (or any other system aside from x86 gear) is sold without an OS license, they don't bother printing them they just let anyone with hardware run the OS (support costs extra mind you). It's a nice touch and means AIX is very accessible as a Hobbyist. It's taken over my 'pet UNIX' slot from Solaris since Oracle castrated the free license.
Others mentioned DECNet will run on AIX, I suspect not on more modern versions but maybe 4.3.3 might run it?
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
Umm, yes assuming you meant the Confusian way, right?
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens Mark Wickens Verzonden: dinsdag, juli 2011 21:30 Aan: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
I think they call that 'interesting times' ;) On 12/07/11 21:27, H Vlems wrote:
Remember what I wrote: this happened nearly two decades ago.
IP is the protocol that survived and most people aren t even aware what happened on local area networks before, say,1998.
I worked for Fuji, photosensitive films, paper and offset printing products.
Most of the IT equipment was made by DEC: PDP-11 s (/44, /84, /93, /24, /73 and /23), VAXes, an IBM mainframe (4081) and PC s.
And lots of other gear, most of it in the research lab. A Motorola box that ran Motorola Unix, and an RS/6000 under AIX 2.4 (?).
The lingua franca was DECnet and LAT. No IP, though some PC s used Novell and SNA over tokenring to make terminal emulation to the mainframe possible.
No IP. Sounds weird in today s world but DECnet eventually connected everything. We got a *very* early Cisco router that did level 1
DECnet routing between the corporate ethernet and the finance dept token ring. Another (DEC) box that routed DECnet over Datanet/1 (that s X25 in Europe IIRC). The mainframe used an SNA/DECnet gateway (the big channel attached box).
The RS/6000 and the Motorola systems also ran DECnet, endnode only.
To make this a little interesting we ran the first FDDI network in the Netherlands.
Trouble shooting wasn t always easy, especially if the SNA/DECnet gateway was involved!
Hans
Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht. Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 10.0.1388 / Virusdatabase: 1516/3760 - datum van uitgifte: 07/12/11
Remember what I wrote: this happened nearly two decades ago.
IP is the protocol that survived and most people aren t even aware what happened on local area networks before, say,1998.
I worked for Fuji, photosensitive films, paper and offset printing products.
Most of the IT equipment was made by DEC: PDP-11 s (/44, /84, /93, /24, /73 and /23), VAXes, an IBM mainframe (4081) and PC s.
And lots of other gear, most of it in the research lab. A Motorola box that ran Motorola Unix, and an RS/6000 under AIX 2.4 (?).
The lingua franca was DECnet and LAT. No IP, though some PC s used Novell and SNA over tokenring to make terminal emulation to the mainframe possible.
No IP. Sounds weird in today s world but DECnet eventually connected everything. We got a *very* early Cisco router that did level 1
DECnet routing between the corporate ethernet and the finance dept token ring. Another (DEC) box that routed DECnet over Datanet/1 (that s X25 in Europe IIRC). The mainframe used an SNA/DECnet gateway (the big channel attached box).
The RS/6000 and the Motorola systems also ran DECnet, endnode only.
To make this a little interesting we ran the first FDDI network in the Netherlands.
Trouble shooting wasn t always easy, especially if the SNA/DECnet gateway was involved!
Hans
Van: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] Namens Jason Stevens Verzonden: dinsdag, juli 2011 21:10 Aan: hecnet at update.uu.se Onderwerp: Re: [HECnet] Towards the Mouth of Madness....
AIX and decnet? now that'd be ... non conformist & fun!
Geen virus gevonden in dit bericht. Gecontroleerd door AVG - www.avg.com Versie: 10.0.1388 / Virusdatabase: 1516/3760 - datum van uitgifte: 07/12/11
The multimonitor thing for DOOM was pretty sweet.... And it'd let you look around corners.
If you had a room full of 486's it was the neatest thing ever!
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
On 12 Jul 2011, at 20:40, Jason Stevens wrote:
> Oddly enough our VAX's actually had some netware thing. I wish I'd managed to make copies of the tapes, but we did have Netware for VAX/VMS.
IT's probably for the better that you didn't. Being a bit on the young side I was doing LANs just as IPX/SPX and NetWare and suchlike were fading away. I remember setting up an IPX network to play DooM - my first ever LAN game wit ha friend of mine - and all the contact I had with Netware via education services etc was pretty nasty and proved to hurt more than it helped anything, but I was too young to understand bigger pictures at the time.
> It wasn't until 95 with Microsoft including TCP/IP into the consumer OS did it really start to matter.
Yes I do remember the days when Windows 3.11 had Winsock to provide a separate TCP stack. We used it and SLIP to dial up to our ISP back then. We had to keep a Windows 3.1 box on the modem for quite a while until we worked out how to build SLIP dialup scripts for Windows 95.
Sometimes I swear I was born 10 years too late :(
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Sampsa Laine wrote:
So with my long, non-billing Sunday afternoons giving me ideas, I've started to ponder procuring a midrange IBM box, say an AS/400.
Hi Sampsa,
If you do in fact acquire an AS/400, I'd love to have an account to play around with. That's one system I've never really much used. And yes I do have a 5250 emulator available. :)
Fred
On 12 Jul 2011, at 20:40, Jason Stevens wrote:
Oddly enough our VAX's actually had some netware thing. I wish I'd managed to make copies of the tapes, but we did have Netware for VAX/VMS.
IT's probably for the better that you didn't. Being a bit on the young side I was doing LANs just as IPX/SPX and NetWare and suchlike were fading away. I remember setting up an IPX network to play DooM - my first ever LAN game wit ha friend of mine - and all the contact I had with Netware via education services etc was pretty nasty and proved to hurt more than it helped anything, but I was too young to understand bigger pictures at the time.
It wasn't until 95 with Microsoft including TCP/IP into the consumer OS did it really start to matter.
Yes I do remember the days when Windows 3.11 had Winsock to provide a separate TCP stack. We used it and SLIP to dial up to our ISP back then. We had to keep a Windows 3.1 box on the modem for quite a while until we worked out how to build SLIP dialup scripts for Windows 95.
Sometimes I swear I was born 10 years too late :(
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
On 12 Jul 2011, at 19:19, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
You must have been dying of boredom to start a hobby like that :-)
To stay on topic (somewhat): why no RS/6000 under AIX? That platform can run DECnet at least.
It can? Oh I may have a third HECNet candidate :) I have a very nice RS/6000 7046-B50 that only pulls 75W. The Addition of one of those shiny new 73GB Seagate SCA drives I got has made it inot a really nice box. It's no louder than the zx6000 either and has a framebuffer (only does 1024x768 8-bit but it's a framebuffer) too so it's a really nice all-round box.
I'm running AIX 5L - do tell if I can DECNet that, I have 4.3.3 too if I need to fall back a version.
--
Mark Benson
My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Follow me on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/mdbenson
"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
