- HECnet - lists @ Update

"Poor mans routing" and the Italian Hobbyist DECNET

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2012-06-28 15:57, Sampsa Laine wrote: Guys, Do you think it would be possible to have a host that would somehow bridge HECnet with the Italian DECNET and then use the "poor mans routing" (i.e. HOST1::HOST2::<object) to pass e.g. mail across our two networks? I have no idea how this works in practice, but just throwing the idea out there. From what I understood is that the Italians use many of the same nets / nodes as us (mainly network 1) which would make a network merger impractical. I don't think that will work. PMR is used to be able to forward traffic to a node, which you either do not know about, or else can't address (for example a Phase V address). There needs to live a machine in the middle with connections both ways. This means that you cannot have machines with conflicting node numbers available to that machine in the middle, but this is exactly what will happen with the italian network. :-( Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

13 years, 1 month

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SimH, Ultrix and DECnet

by md.benson＠gmail.com

On 28 Jun 2012, at 14:45, Peter Coghlan <HECNET at beyondthepale.ie> wrote: I've booted both VMS and OSF/1 or Tru64 or Digital Unix or whatever it is called this week on the same Alphaserver 2100. The oses use the TOY clock differently unfortunately. When VMS notices that the time is "preposterous" is prompts me to enter the correct date and time before allowing the machine to boot. Unix gives me the "preposterous" message and advises me to fix the clock later while going on to boot and put "preposterous" dates on various files :-( The VMS approach can also be somewhat inconvenient when trying to do "lights out" operations. A pity that a standard way of using the TOY clock could not have been agreed for all the oses supported on a particular processor. The DEC 'Enter date and time DD-MMM-YY (later YYYY) HH:MM' prompt pre-dates VMS, it is also present in several PDP-11 OSs (because many PDPs didn't have a TOY clock). I think it was DEC's defacto way of handling the date issue that got handed down to VMS. -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson

13 years, 1 month

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"Poor mans routing" and the Italian Hobbyist DECNET

by sampsa＠mac.com

Guys, Do you think it would be possible to have a host that would somehow bridge HECnet with the Italian DECNET and then use the "poor mans routing" (i.e. HOST1::HOST2::<object) to pass e.g. mail across our two networks? I have no idea how this works in practice, but just throwing the idea out there. From what I understood is that the Italians use many of the same nets / nodes as us (mainly network 1) which would make a network merger impractical. Sampsa

13 years, 1 month

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SimH, Ultrix and DECnet

by HECNET＠beyondthepale.ie

It is triggered by the setting of the todr at boot time. In principle, it picks the mtime of / to get a rough estimate of what time it is at boot time. It's done in inittodr, which is called from ufs_mount. inittodr checks if the date is before 1975, and if it is, the it's preposterous. I've booted both VMS and OSF/1 or Tru64 or Digital Unix or whatever it is called this week on the same Alphaserver 2100. The oses use the TOY clock differently unfortunately. When VMS notices that the time is "preposterous" is prompts me to enter the correct date and time before allowing the machine to boot. Unix gives me the "preposterous" message and advises me to fix the clock later while going on to boot and put "preposterous" dates on various files :-( The VMS approach can also be somewhat inconvenient when trying to do "lights out" operations. A pity that a standard way of using the TOY clock could not have been agreed for all the oses supported on a particular processor. Regards, Peter Coghlan.

13 years, 1 month

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SimH, Ultrix and DECnet

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2012-06-28 12:09, Mark Benson wrote: That's a UNIX tradition I think, lot of UNIXs I have used (IRIX, Solaris, NetBSD to name a few) return the 'preposterous value in Time if Day clock' or similar error if the date wrong. I think it's triggered if the system date is prior to the kernel's date :) It is triggered by the setting of the todr at boot time. In principle, it picks the mtime of / to get a rough estimate of what time it is at boot time. It's done in inittodr, which is called from ufs_mount. inittodr checks if the date is before 1975, and if it is, the it's preposterous. So, a simple way to trigger this error message would be to just set the date to sometime in 1972, shut down the system, and then reboot. The initial time for a booted system should thus always be just following the last time the machine was shut down. This is then updated by the todr, if it exists, and have a valid value. But since the todr only is a running time that covers about 1.5 years, it cannot really tell the full time. But assuming you got it almost right (within 6 months or so), todr can then adjust the rest. The code in current NetBSD is i principle identical to Ultrix, so the same is probably still true for all modern Unixes (I don't know about Linux though). Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

13 years, 1 month

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SimH, Ultrix and DECnet

by md.benson＠gmail.com

On 28 Jun 2012, at 11:26, Tony Blews <tonyblews at gmail.com> wrote: Ultrix not liking the year 2000 means you need to be preposterous, sadly. Use my strategy and use 1984 - the calendar is the same as 2012 and it was a leap year :) Slightly related: while poking around in the shed looking for a spare kettle lead, I found a shrink-wrapped copy of SCO Unix on 5.25" disks and a copy of the "Unix for VMS Users" book. I've moved house 7 times in the last 20 years. Why do i keep this crap? If I knew the answer to that I wouldn't keep any of it either ;) -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson

13 years, 1 month

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SimH, Ultrix and DECnet

by tonyblews＠gmail.com

Ultrix not liking the year 2000 means you need to be preposterous, sadly. Slightly related: while poking around in the shed looking for a spare kettle lead, I found a shrink-wrapped copy of SCO Unix on 5.25" disks and a copy of the "Unix for VMS Users" book. I've moved house 7 times in the last 20 years. Why do i keep this crap? On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:09 PM, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote: That's a UNIX tradition I think, lot of UNIXs I have used (IRIX, Solaris, NetBSD to name a few) return the 'preposterous value in Time if Day clock' or similar error if the date wrong. I think it's triggered if the system date is prior to the kernel's date :) -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson On 28 Jun 2012, at 10:53, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote: > On 28/06/12 10:31, Tony Blews wrote: >> Hi. >> >> Has anyone had any success emulating Ultrix with DECnet under SimH? >> I managed to find a copy of 4.0, and the "tape" claimed that it was installing DECnet, but I couldn't find any evidence of it anywhere on the system. >> I may just be being stupid (this is not unknown). >> >> An aside: You've got to love an OS that gives you error messages containing the word "preposterous"! >> >> Tony. > That would be reporting the TOY clock setting then? > > -- > http://www.wickensonline.co.uk > http://declegacy.org.uk >

13 years, 1 month

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SimH, Ultrix and DECnet

by tonyblews＠gmail.com

Yeah, '70 was a preposterous year it seems. Most on the 70s were, thinking about it. On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote: That would be reporting the TOY clock setting then? -- http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://declegacy.org.uk

13 years, 1 month

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SimH, Ultrix and DECnet

by md.benson＠gmail.com

That's a UNIX tradition I think, lot of UNIXs I have used (IRIX, Solaris, NetBSD to name a few) return the 'preposterous value in Time if Day clock' or similar error if the date wrong. I think it's triggered if the system date is prior to the kernel's date :) -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson On 28 Jun 2012, at 10:53, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote: On 28/06/12 10:31, Tony Blews wrote: Hi. Has anyone had any success emulating Ultrix with DECnet under SimH? I managed to find a copy of 4.0, and the "tape" claimed that it was installing DECnet, but I couldn't find any evidence of it anywhere on the system. I may just be being stupid (this is not unknown). An aside: You've got to love an OS that gives you error messages containing the word "preposterous"! Tony. That would be reporting the TOY clock setting then? -- http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://declegacy.org.uk

13 years, 1 month

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SimH, Ultrix and DECnet

by mark＠wickensonline.co.uk

On 28/06/12 10:31, Tony Blews wrote: Hi. Has anyone had any success emulating Ultrix with DECnet under SimH? I managed to find a copy of 4.0, and the "tape" claimed that it was installing DECnet, but I couldn't find any evidence of it anywhere on the system. I may just be being stupid (this is not unknown). An aside: You've got to love an OS that gives you error messages containing the word "preposterous"! Tony. That would be reporting the TOY clock setting then? -- http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://declegacy.org.uk

13 years, 1 month

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SimH, Ultrix and DECnet

by tonyblews＠gmail.com

Hi. Has anyone had any success emulating Ultrix with DECnet under SimH? I managed to find a copy of 4.0, and the "tape" claimed that it was installing DECnet, but I couldn't find any evidence of it anywhere on the system. I may just be being stupid (this is not unknown). An aside: You've got to love an OS that gives you error messages containing the word "preposterous"! Tony.

13 years, 1 month

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VAXstation 3100 boot - now you see it, now you don't...

by HECNET＠beyondthepale.ie

The m38 gets to '...B' in the countdown and then restarts with the graphics test ad infinitum. The m30 gets to '...B' in the countdown and then hangs. The countdown includes a question mark after the initial 'F?' The good news is I've seen something like this. The bad news is it was caused by leakage from the battery pack. The batteries in these machines are very old now and I would suggest removing them and recycling them whether they are leaking or not. If they are not leaking now, they are going to start soon. Suitable replacements can sometimes be found intended for use with cordless phones. The machine can be also be left without a battery pack although it will not remember it's boot settings and will need the time to be reset every time it is turned on. Test B is the memory test. Try removing the memory expansion board and check if the test completes then. Check the expansion board and the main board for corrosion damage. I think test F relates to the monochrome graphics system. I've got to run now but I can dig up more information later if nobody else chimes in before I return. Regards, Peter Coghlan.

13 years, 1 month

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Possible downtime

by pontus＠update.uu.se

On 06/26/2012 10:06 PM, Pontus wrote: On 06/15/2012 03:36 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: Mim and the server running this mailinglist might have to be taken down. I'll get back to you when I know more. I just found out (five minutes ago) that our hard working admins are moving hardware out of the water damaged room. Psilo and Mim will go down soon. I can't say for how long, looks like it might be a while. Short update: Psilo is back and running in a temporary setting. There will be more downtime when we can move hardware back into the server room. Mim is still down. Regards, Pontus.

13 years, 1 month

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VAXstation 3100 boot - now you see it, now you don't...

by mark＠wickensonline.co.uk

Quick question as I'm getting sick of breaking VAXen lately - I've installed Ultrix 4.4 on both a VAXstation 3100 m38 and a VAXstation 3100 m30. Both were working before installation, both now hang on boot during POST now. The m38 gets to '...B' in the countdown and then restarts with the graphics test ad infinitum. The m30 gets to '...B' in the countdown and then hangs. The countdown includes a question mark after the initial 'F?' Anyone got any ideas? My best hypotheses are: * coincidence - old machines not been run in a long time, both just happen to have broken. * ultrix updates nvram in some way which causes the problem (the backup batteries are surely flat now) Ultrix/VAX is still eluding me and I just feel like I deserve to get it running given all the pain I've gone through trying over the years! Regards, Mark. -- http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://declegacy.org.uk

13 years, 1 month

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decnet.org

by mark＠wickensonline.co.uk

Of course there is still http://hecnet.eu I'm a bit sad no-one else mentioned it :( The good: - WASD under VMS - text based web pages (easy retro-editing) - provides area and node lists - endless possibilities for hooking website into hecnet when running on a node The bad: - on the end of an ADSL connection - text based web pages (no web access for updates) - not always up If someone could provide a hecnet node with good bandwidth and uptime then something along these lines surely would make a lot of sense. Of course a hecnet 'web-site' could be a happy marriage of modern hosting tech with wiki, CMS etc, and WASD giving stats on a VMS et al. box. Mark. -- http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://declegacy.org.uk

13 years, 1 month

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decnet.org

by md.benson＠gmail.com

Okay I mentioned earlier (if my mail got through) about my site at DECtec.info. I'd be willing to throw my lot in with a potential decnet.org/HECnet effort as I can't realistically build a massive amount meaningful on DECtec.info myself so I'd like to put some work part of a community instead. I will keep the DECtec mailing list open though, perhaps we could offer it as a more general mailing list vs. the HECnet specific list here? I have already produced and polished up a really nic DEC-esque skin in the later bugandy colour scheme for Mediawiki (see http://wiki.dectec.info/wiki/Main_Page) and it wouldn't take a lot of work to port it to a DEC blue version should you prefer a more retro look. I also have experience setting up and managing Mediawiki installations although I'm no class genius by a long way, but I do have the necessary knowledge to at least set up one and make some efforts to keep the spammers out provided I can work in concert with the server;'s admin to ensure the correct library support etc. Count me in, at least for the Wiki side, and if you boil up a Wordpress blog I'll happily help with that too. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.

13 years, 1 month

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decnet.org

by bob＠jfcl.com

Dave McGuire wrote: You don't run your own namservers? Jeeze. ;) Of course I do, but only my own machines use it. Nobody else on the Internet considers me authoritative .... Bob

13 years, 1 month

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decnet.org

by bob＠jfcl.com

Johnny Billquist wrote: (As a parenthesis, didn't someone do this a few years ago...?) I did (the feature is built into Multinet, so it's not that hard), but nobody ever used it (including me!) and I quit updating it. So, what machine have you setup to do this? Steve - want me to put in an MX record? What's your mail gateway machine?? Bob

13 years, 1 month

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decnet.org

by jeep＠scshome.net

declab.net, houses all my "hobby" domains :-) ________________________________ From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE on behalf of Johnny Billquist Sent: Wed 6/27/2012 07:54 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] decnet.org On 2012-06-27 13:40, Steve Davidson wrote: My original plan was to make the domain available for all to receive email with either: <username>@hecnet.org or <username>@<DECnet-nodename>.hecnet.org (much easier to do BTW) The web address was (is) an after-thought. So, what machine have you setup to do this? (As a parenthesis, didn't someone do this a few years ago...?) Johnny -Steve ________________________________ From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE on behalf of Bob Armstrong Sent: Tue 6/26/2012 22:06 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] decnet.org I actually own hecnet.org. That could be used. In fact it is today to a limited extent already... I hope this doesn't start a "my domain is better than yours" argument, but I'd guess that probably most people with DEC experience know what DECnet is. OTOH, only we know what HECnet is ... Bob

13 years, 1 month

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decnet.org

by HECNET＠beyondthepale.ie

My original plan was to make the domain available for all to receive email with either: <username>@hecnet.org or <username>@<DECnet-nodename>.hecnet.org (much easier to do BTW) I'm running a PMDF mailserver on VMS which can gateway mail from the internet to DECnet Mail-11. I could set it up to do this if there is interest. The web address was (is) an after-thought. I'm also running the OSU webserver but it looks like web hosting might be addressed by others with more bandwidth. (I'm not great at providing content either!). Regards, Peter Coghlan.

13 years, 1 month

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decnet.org

by jeep＠scshome.net

I am also willing to point the web address anywhere else as long as it is a static IP address. If the destination site houses additional web sites, then I could even specify a port in addition to the address. I do not have time to create (or manage) an additional website, so someone else would have to take on that task. -Steve ________________________________ From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE on behalf of Steve Davidson Sent: Wed 6/27/2012 07:40 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] decnet.org My original plan was to make the domain available for all to receive email with either: <username>@hecnet.org or <username>@<DECnet-nodename>.hecnet.org (much easier to do BTW) The web address was (is) an after-thought. -Steve ________________________________ From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE on behalf of Bob Armstrong Sent: Tue 6/26/2012 22:06 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] decnet.org I actually own hecnet.org. That could be used. In fact it is today to a limited extent already... I hope this doesn't start a "my domain is better than yours" argument, but I'd guess that probably most people with DEC experience know what DECnet is. OTOH, only we know what HECnet is ... Bob

13 years, 1 month

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decnet.org

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2012-06-27 13:40, Steve Davidson wrote: My original plan was to make the domain available for all to receive email with either: <username>@hecnet.org or <username>@<DECnet-nodename>.hecnet.org (much easier to do BTW) The web address was (is) an after-thought. So, what machine have you setup to do this? (As a parenthesis, didn't someone do this a few years ago...?) Johnny -Steve ________________________________ From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE on behalf of Bob Armstrong Sent: Tue 6/26/2012 22:06 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] decnet.org I actually own hecnet.org. That could be used. In fact it is today to a limited extent already... I hope this doesn't start a "my domain is better than yours" argument, but I'd guess that probably most people with DEC experience know what DECnet is. OTOH, only we know what HECnet is ... Bob

13 years, 1 month

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decnet.org

by jeep＠scshome.net

My original plan was to make the domain available for all to receive email with either: <username>@hecnet.org or <username>@<DECnet-nodename>.hecnet.org (much easier to do BTW) The web address was (is) an after-thought. -Steve ________________________________ From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE on behalf of Bob Armstrong Sent: Tue 6/26/2012 22:06 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: RE: [HECnet] decnet.org I actually own hecnet.org. That could be used. In fact it is today to a limited extent already... I hope this doesn't start a "my domain is better than yours" argument, but I'd guess that probably most people with DEC experience know what DECnet is. OTOH, only we know what HECnet is ... Bob

13 years, 1 month

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decnet.org

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2012-06-27 06:18, Dave McGuire wrote: On 06/26/2012 03:09 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote: I know I'm going to sound all Web2.0 and stuff, but maybe a Wiki + a blog that announces new posts to the Wiki? Actually, a Wiki with some documentation would be a great idea. But it s the same answer I m just offering the domain name; somebody else has to set up the machine and service. I'll host it if everyone is cool for the low-end hosting that I use (i.e. Dreamhost).. They also do automatically updated mediawiki + wordpress installs so that'll work. I am NOT throwing stones at this idea at all, but if anyone would find this of value, I run my own self-contained network here...beefy Solaris machines with big redundant fibrechannel disk arrays, backed up to big tape juke, backup power, separate database servers, local nameservers, etc, all on industrial-grade non-PC hardware, in a commercial building, and I do quite a bit of commercial and noncommercial hosting on this network. I would be happy to make as much space and bandwidth available as needed. I just don't have a lot of time these days (I moved from FL to PA to find work, and I found a lot more than I bargained for) so I don't want to work on the content, but if others can do that, I can make whatever network resources available that would be needed, gratis of course, for the group. I suggest this because I consider this to be "friendly territory" network-wise, rather than at the whim of some corporation somewhere. If you guys don't want to go that route for whatever reason, that's ok too. Just wanted to extend the offer, as it's one of the few things I can do to help, and not everyone has these sorts of resources. Thanks for the offer. Update have silly amounts of bandwidth, and all else as well. So what, from my point of view, is missing, is content. Which I too am reluctant to try. Of course, as people might have seen, we're going to have Update out for a couple of days, starting later today. Sorry about that. A short notice need to move machines around in the computer hall. Johnny

13 years, 1 month

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decnet.org

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2012-06-27 04:06, Bob Armstrong wrote: I actually own hecnet.org. That could be used. In fact it is today to a limited extent already... I hope this doesn't start a "my domain is better than yours" argument, but I'd guess that probably most people with DEC experience know what DECnet is. OTOH, only we know what HECnet is ... I think it makes sense to have both. :-) Not that they necessarily should be identical. Johnny

13 years, 1 month

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