- HECnet - lists @ Update

Problem: I can't recall the website for the US based users group for VMS

by gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com

Hello! Problem, this computer suffered an attack of typical Microsoft issues regarding its OS and required an installation of itself back about a month earlier. I ended up loosing my bookmarks. One of them was for the US based offices for the users group for VMS. As I recall and en examination of the form used to create the licensing string for VMS it requires that name. It also needs the member number from the group. I recall creating one for a kit that Sampsa has someplace last year, but I never managed to launch the Alpha emulator on any of the approved operating systems for it. Now I'm ready to try again with the VMS kit I have here someplace (it presupposes that I can find it, but I do know that the image can be downloaded...) and running on the SIMH Vax setup using the instructions on the site that the SIMH one is linked to. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

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pdp-11/83-84

by jeep＠scshome.net

-----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2012 03:53 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] pdp-11/83-84 On 07/05/2012 02:22 AM, Boyanich, Alastair wrote: Quick question. I've just snaffled an M8190-AE with what I think is the 21-21853-06 FPU as an upgrade for either the 11/70 or 11/23Plus at home. Nice! I've seen reference to CIS microcode for these boards about the place and am extremely keen to have a go at it with macro. I'm not "actually" sure if it has it in the PROMS, but being handy with a EPROM programmer hopefully I can find it. Does anyone have any reading material on how to figure out if the CIS microcode is installed ? Huh? That's a J-11 based board, and I'm pretty sure the CIS option for the J-11, while planned, was never actually shipped. It would have been two additional chip carriers on the bottom side of the big white J11 multi-carrier chip. The only ROMs on a KDJ11-Bx board contain the boot/diag code, not microcode, and conversely, the only microcode on a KDJ11-Bx (or any J11-based board for that matter) is in the microcode ROM, which is a part of the "control" chip, which is one the two chips on the J11 multi-chip carrier itself. No microaddress lines or any other internal state machine stuff is brought out to the pins of a J11. (sorry!) You CAN, however, get a CIS option (if you can find it!) for your 11/23! I too would love to mess with CIS a bit; I've never done so. I have two CIS option board sets for my 11/44s but have not yet installed them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA The node PLUTO:: is a PDP-11/23+ with both CIS and FPU running RSTS/E. You can run an emulated one using SimH if you do not have the physical hardware. I have both running. You would be hard pressed to know if the system running (and connected to HECnet) was the real one or not! COBOL was the reason that CIS was designed for the 11/23+. Other languages can also make use of it. One that comes to mind is DIBOL. -Steve

13 years

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pdp-11/83-84

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 07/05/2012 09:00 PM, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: On Jul 5, 2012, at 7:35 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: ... Oh, and I saw some additional discussions about the CIS option for the F11. Unless I remember wrong, and understood things wrong, it is not just a simple PROM. It's a coprocessor, which have logic in addition to whatever microcode the coprocessor need. So no way of just duplicating a PROM to get a CIS. Not unless someone could dig up the details. If it *is* just a PROM, even if it's an oddball bipolar model with different interface specs, it should be easy to reproduce that with a small FPGA. Any reasonable modern FPGA is way faster than a 1980s era bipolar ROM, so modeling the interface timing should be easy. And level conversions should be doable. So a sort of daughterboard? That's a good idea. I'm pretty sure the F11's manuals are out there, but I haven't gone digging for them. From that, and possibly even just from the KDF11-Bx schematics, one should be able to glean the important parts of how to interface to the microinstruction and microaddress buses. Then all we'd need is a copy of the actual code. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

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pdp-11/83-84

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On Jul 5, 2012, at 9:03 PM, Steve Davidson wrote: ... The node PLUTO:: is a PDP-11/23+ with both CIS and FPU running RSTS/E. You can run an emulated one using SimH if you do not have the physical hardware. I have both running. You would be hard pressed to know if the system running (and connected to HECnet) was the real one or not! COBOL was the reason that CIS was designed for the 11/23+. Other languages can also make use of it. One that comes to mind is DIBOL. I don't know if Dibol uses it. I do know that the RSTS kernel does for memcpy. paul

13 years

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pdp-11/83-84

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On Jul 5, 2012, at 7:35 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: ... Oh, and I saw some additional discussions about the CIS option for the F11. Unless I remember wrong, and understood things wrong, it is not just a simple PROM. It's a coprocessor, which have logic in addition to whatever microcode the coprocessor need. So no way of just duplicating a PROM to get a CIS. Not unless someone could dig up the details. If it *is* just a PROM, even if it's an oddball bipolar model with different interface specs, it should be easy to reproduce that with a small FPGA. Any reasonable modern FPGA is way faster than a 1980s era bipolar ROM, so modeling the interface timing should be easy. And level conversions should be doable. paul

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pdp-11/83-84

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2012-07-06 01:42, Boyanich, Alastair wrote: Oh, and I saw some additional discussions about the CIS option for the F11. Unless I remember wrong, and understood things wrong, it is not just a simple PROM. It's a coprocessor, which have logic in addition to whatever microcode the coprocessor need. So no way of just duplicating a PROM to get a CIS. Ah ha! Game over then. Pity. Shall have to keep poking about for bits for the 23Plus then :) Yeah. Well, had it been that easy, the market would have been flooded with CIS options. :-) Johnny

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pdp-11/83-84

by Alastair.Boyanich＠au.fujitsu.com

Oh, and I saw some additional discussions about the CIS option for the F11. Unless I remember wrong, and understood things wrong, it is not just a simple PROM. It's a coprocessor, which have logic in addition to whatever microcode the coprocessor need. So no way of just duplicating a PROM to get a CIS. Ah ha! Game over then. Pity. Shall have to keep poking about for bits for the 23Plus then :) Thanks! Al.

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pdp-11/83-84

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2012-07-05 23:43, Boyanich, Alastair wrote: G'day Johnny, Okay, then "someone on the internet is wrong" (tm) .. will accept your version of it. :) The internet is wrong most of the time, if you just start digging into enough details. :-) Was going off this site: http://www.cpu-galaxy.at/Boards/Boards_CPU/Boards_CPU.htm ..and a couple of others that've probably sourced it. Yep, the information there is wrong. No CIS for the J11. The only CPUs that ever got the CIS was the F11 and the 11/44. (Now I'm sure someone is going to point out the 11/74 CIS option, but it was never sold, even though I've heard that at least one prototype was done.) Okay, I'll check the 23Plus when I get home. Might get lucky there and be able to have a play with it there. On topic, seems to work in the quick test (sadly had work to do at home) I did last night which was a couple of memory fills so that's promising. Right. So no CIS for 83/94, but there is for 23Plus. Right. Thanks for the straightening out :) No problem. Oh, and I saw some additional discussions about the CIS option for the F11. Unless I remember wrong, and understood things wrong, it is not just a simple PROM. It's a coprocessor, which have logic in addition to whatever microcode the coprocessor need. So no way of just duplicating a PROM to get a CIS. Johnny Al. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, 5 July 2012 5:45 PM To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] pdp-11/83-84 On 2012-07-05 09:40, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2012-07-05 08:22, Boyanich, Alastair wrote: G'day $ALL. Quick question. I've just snaffled an M8190-AE with what I think is the 21-21853-06 FPU as an upgrade for either the 11/70 or 11/23Plus at home. I've seen reference to CIS microcode for these boards about the place and am extremely keen to have a go at it with macro. I'm not "actually" sure if it has it in the PROMS, but being handy with a EPROM programmer hopefully I can find it. Does anyone have any reading material on how to figure out if the CIS microcode is installed ? This CIS option is not a PROM, even though it might sound like that. It's more like a co-processor. If the CIS options is installed, you can easily see that, physically, by the large chips next to the CPU. If it's not there, you have some empty sockets... Oh! And Darn! I should have checked proper. The M8190 is indeed the 11/83 and 11/84 CPUs. That's a J11 CPU. There is *no* CIS for this CPU. I thought you were talking about the 11/23+ and 11/24 in my first reply. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

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pdp-11/83-84

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 07/05/2012 05:48 PM, Boyanich, Alastair wrote: Thanks, Yeah I was more than a bit hot for it also. Looks like it came out of Ford Aerospace and Comms Corp (P.S. FAAC Best acronym next to our old one of FACOM which was changed when someone heard a .jp accent saying "FAKKUM" to one of the clients *G*). No clue how it ended up in Adelaide unless they were doing defence contracting. Yeah really! But, a great score either way. You CAN, however, get a CIS option (if you can find it!) for your 11/23! I too would love to mess with CIS a bit; I've never done so. I have two CIS option board sets for my 11/44s but have not yet installed them. Nice! (tm) .. got a photo's of the 11/44 option? Not yet, but keep after me about it and I will photograph the boards. Really wondering about the /23Plus. If the option for it is just PROM's that should be pretty easy to reproduce. It won't be at all easy to reproduce. They are MICROMs. The F11 CIS option is one of those multi-chip carriers, but for CIS it is two 40-pin-DIPs wide, and contains six MICROM chips. These are bipolar mask-programmed ROMs with an (I think?) undocumented interface. I would be more than a little surprised if anyway, even someone of technical means, could reproduce that. Since you have an 11/23+, you are in luck; that has one more 40-pin socket than the dual-width 11/23 CPU board. It can accommodate both the CIS MICROM option and the floating point MICROM option. On the dual-width 11/23 boards, you have to remove the floating point MICROM. You could remove the MMU chip to make room for the double-wide CIS chip carrier, but that'd be pointless because, if memory serves, the floating point registers reside within the MMU chip. The 11/24 has yet one more socket, so it has no such limitations. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

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pdp-11/83-84

by Alastair.Boyanich＠au.fujitsu.com

G'day Dave, Nice! Thanks, Yeah I was more than a bit hot for it also. Looks like it came out of Ford Aerospace and Comms Corp (P.S. FAAC Best acronym next to our old one of FACOM which was changed when someone heard a .jp accent saying "FAKKUM" to one of the clients *G*). No clue how it ended up in Adelaide unless they were doing defence contracting. Huh? That's a J-11 based board, and I'm pretty sure the CIS option for the J-11, while planned, was never actually shipped. It would have been two additional chip carriers on the bottom side of the big white J11 multi-carrier chip. The only ROMs on a KDJ11-Bx board contain the boot/diag code, not microcode, and conversely, the only microcode on a KDJ11-Bx (or any J11-based board for that matter) is in the microcode ROM, which is a part of the "control" chip, which is one the two chips on the J11 multi-chip carrier itself. No microaddress lines or any other internal state machine stuff is brought out to the pins of a J11. (sorry!) You CAN, however, get a CIS option (if you can find it!) for your 11/23! I too would love to mess with CIS a bit; I've never done so. I have two CIS option board sets for my 11/44s but have not yet installed them. Nice! (tm) .. got a photo's of the 11/44 option? Really wondering about the /23Plus. If the option for it is just PROM's that should be pretty easy to reproduce. Al.

13 years

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pdp-11/83-84

by Alastair.Boyanich＠au.fujitsu.com

G'day Johnny, Okay, then "someone on the internet is wrong" (tm) .. will accept your version of it. :) Was going off this site: http://www.cpu-galaxy.at/Boards/Boards_CPU/Boards_CPU.htm ..and a couple of others that've probably sourced it. Okay, I'll check the 23Plus when I get home. Might get lucky there and be able to have a play with it there. On topic, seems to work in the quick test (sadly had work to do at home) I did last night which was a couple of memory fills so that's promising. Right. So no CIS for 83/94, but there is for 23Plus. Thanks for the straightening out :) Al. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, 5 July 2012 5:45 PM To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] pdp-11/83-84 On 2012-07-05 09:40, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2012-07-05 08:22, Boyanich, Alastair wrote: G'day $ALL. Quick question. I've just snaffled an M8190-AE with what I think is the 21-21853-06 FPU as an upgrade for either the 11/70 or 11/23Plus at home. I've seen reference to CIS microcode for these boards about the place and am extremely keen to have a go at it with macro. I'm not "actually" sure if it has it in the PROMS, but being handy with a EPROM programmer hopefully I can find it. Does anyone have any reading material on how to figure out if the CIS microcode is installed ? This CIS option is not a PROM, even though it might sound like that. It's more like a co-processor. If the CIS options is installed, you can easily see that, physically, by the large chips next to the CPU. If it's not there, you have some empty sockets... Oh! And Darn! I should have checked proper. The M8190 is indeed the 11/83 and 11/84 CPUs. That's a J11 CPU. There is *no* CIS for this CPU. I thought you were talking about the 11/23+ and 11/24 in my first reply. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

13 years

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pdp-11/83-84

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 07/05/2012 02:22 AM, Boyanich, Alastair wrote: Quick question. I've just snaffled an M8190-AE with what I think is the 21-21853-06 FPU as an upgrade for either the 11/70 or 11/23Plus at home. Nice! I've seen reference to CIS microcode for these boards about the place and am extremely keen to have a go at it with macro. I'm not "actually" sure if it has it in the PROMS, but being handy with a EPROM programmer hopefully I can find it. Does anyone have any reading material on how to figure out if the CIS microcode is installed ? Huh? That's a J-11 based board, and I'm pretty sure the CIS option for the J-11, while planned, was never actually shipped. It would have been two additional chip carriers on the bottom side of the big white J11 multi-carrier chip. The only ROMs on a KDJ11-Bx board contain the boot/diag code, not microcode, and conversely, the only microcode on a KDJ11-Bx (or any J11-based board for that matter) is in the microcode ROM, which is a part of the "control" chip, which is one the two chips on the J11 multi-chip carrier itself. No microaddress lines or any other internal state machine stuff is brought out to the pins of a J11. (sorry!) You CAN, however, get a CIS option (if you can find it!) for your 11/23! I too would love to mess with CIS a bit; I've never done so. I have two CIS option board sets for my 11/44s but have not yet installed them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

13 years

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pdp-11/83-84

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2012-07-05 09:40, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2012-07-05 08:22, Boyanich, Alastair wrote: G'day $ALL. Quick question. I've just snaffled an M8190-AE with what I think is the 21-21853-06 FPU as an upgrade for either the 11/70 or 11/23Plus at home. I've seen reference to CIS microcode for these boards about the place and am extremely keen to have a go at it with macro. I'm not "actually" sure if it has it in the PROMS, but being handy with a EPROM programmer hopefully I can find it. Does anyone have any reading material on how to figure out if the CIS microcode is installed ? This CIS option is not a PROM, even though it might sound like that. It's more like a co-processor. If the CIS options is installed, you can easily see that, physically, by the large chips next to the CPU. If it's not there, you have some empty sockets... Oh! And Darn! I should have checked proper. The M8190 is indeed the 11/83 and 11/84 CPUs. That's a J11 CPU. There is *no* CIS for this CPU. I thought you were talking about the 11/23+ and 11/24 in my first reply. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

13 years

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pdp-11/83-84

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2012-07-05 08:22, Boyanich, Alastair wrote: G'day $ALL. Quick question. I've just snaffled an M8190-AE with what I think is the 21-21853-06 FPU as an upgrade for either the 11/70 or 11/23Plus at home. I've seen reference to CIS microcode for these boards about the place and am extremely keen to have a go at it with macro. I'm not "actually" sure if it has it in the PROMS, but being handy with a EPROM programmer hopefully I can find it. Does anyone have any reading material on how to figure out if the CIS microcode is installed ? This CIS option is not a PROM, even though it might sound like that. It's more like a co-processor. If the CIS options is installed, you can easily see that, physically, by the large chips next to the CPU. If it's not there, you have some empty sockets... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

13 years

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pdp-11/83-84

by Alastair.Boyanich＠au.fujitsu.com

G'day $ALL. Quick question. I've just snaffled an M8190-AE with what I think is the 21-21853-06 FPU as an upgrade for either the 11/70 or 11/23Plus at home. I've seen reference to CIS microcode for these boards about the place and am extremely keen to have a go at it with macro. I'm not "actually" sure if it has it in the PROMS, but being handy with a EPROM programmer hopefully I can find it. Does anyone have any reading material on how to figure out if the CIS microcode is installed ? Al.

13 years

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9track.net?

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 07/04/2012 06:00 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: On 04/07/12 06:47, Dave McGuire wrote: Hey folks, does anyone here have contact info for whomever owns 9track.net? Thanks, -Dave scope.matthew at btinternet.com Got it. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

13 years

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9track.net?

by mark＠wickensonline.co.uk

On 04/07/12 06:47, Dave McGuire wrote: Hey folks, does anyone here have contact info for whomever owns 9track.net? Thanks, -Dave scope.matthew at btinternet.com -- http://www.wickensonline.co.uk http://declegacy.org.uk

13 years

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9track.net?

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

Hey folks, does anyone here have contact info for whomever owns 9track.net? Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

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New problem: Computer history

by uusimaki＠exdecfinland.org

On 3.7.2012 9:12, Dave McGuire wrote: On 07/02/2012 11:02 PM, Gregg C Levine wrote: Would anyone on the list recall when the first generation Vaxes were off and running? For example I know that in the time frame when "Cuckoo's Egg" happened we were right in the middle of the model series that DEC happened to be building. But that the BSD release that ran on those was from the 4 series. The first VAX was the VAX-11/780, which was announced in late 1977 and shipped in early 1978, if memory serves. (if that was what you were wondering about) -Dave Quite right. Gregg, please check this: http://www.dtjcd.vmsresource.org.uk/pdfs/dtj_v07-01_1995-insert.pdf Kari

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This is probably been asked already but....

by md.benson＠gmail.com

On 3 Jul 2012, at 02:57, Johnny Billquist wrote: We are indeed drifting way off hecnet here. I think I'll continue this outside of the list. I apologize for the drift as well... This is why I have a general discussion list at DECtec.info :) -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.

13 years

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New problem: Computer history

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 07/02/2012 11:02 PM, Gregg C Levine wrote: Would anyone on the list recall when the first generation Vaxes were off and running? For example I know that in the time frame when "Cuckoo's Egg" happened we were right in the middle of the model series that DEC happened to be building. But that the BSD release that ran on those was from the 4 series. The first VAX was the VAX-11/780, which was announced in late 1977 and shipped in early 1978, if memory serves. (if that was what you were wondering about) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

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New problem: Computer history

by gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 11:13 PM, Tony Blews <tonyblews at gmail.com> wrote: On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 5:02 AM, Gregg C Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote: That Doctor Who book I mentioned Did you mention the name of it? If so I missed it. What was it? Tony Hello! I didn't mention it, the book's name is "Blue Box". Its one of the Original Adventures for the Sixth Doctor and Peri. I did describe it once probably, and that was during the original starter for the thread we've got running. Sampsa please don't feed the Yeti, they've been busy glomming food from the vendors who largely feed tourists. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

13 years

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New problem: Computer history

by tonyblews＠gmail.com

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 5:02 AM, Gregg C Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote: That Doctor Who book I mentioned Did you mention the name of it? If so I missed it. What was it? Tony

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New problem: Computer history

by gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com

Hello! Would anyone on the list recall when the first generation Vaxes were off and running? For example I know that in the time frame when "Cuckoo's Egg" happened we were right in the middle of the model series that DEC happened to be building. But that the BSD release that ran on those was from the 4 series. That Doctor Who book I mentioned has them running roughshod through the early Internet, and largely colliding with UNIX on PDP11s, (I believe they were supposed to be PDP11s, but they were not described, or named.) although the author stuck an Eclipse in someone's home also running the same. Interestingly enough I do know that UNIX came to DG rather late in life, much later then the book took place. And even after the Eclipse that's described there was first turned on. ---- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature does not exist!"

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This is probably been asked already but....

by gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: On 2012-07-03 03:28, Phil Mendelsohn wrote: On 12-07-02 03:09 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: I have no problems calling -11M a redo of -11D. As far as I know, it was not done by Cutler at DuPont, but something he did after starting at DEC. But that is just what I gathered from reading various sources over the years... I could very well be wrong. -11M was entirely done at DEC. -11D was brought finished from DuPont, and was AFAIK written single-handedly by Cutler. Source may or not reflect this; in order to stamp 'digital' on it, there may have been a new coat of paint. Uh...? As far as I know, Dave Cutler was not involved in -11D. Are you really sure about this? Also, DuPont writing -11D? RSX started as RSX-15 for the PDP-15, at DEC. And that was around 1972 as well. How could DuPoint have become involved and written RSX before then? I'm curious here... DEC was headhunting around '72 - they picked up Cutler earlier because of what he'd done at Du Pont on his own. My dad had done an OS for the LINC-8 for the Psych dept. at Michigan State which got back to Central Engineering through the Life Sciences people, so that's how he ended up working with Cutler. Cool. And Cutler seems to have been quite a person to deal with already back then. :-) He didn't write -11M single handedly, but he read and signed off each and every line of code in it. You probably know the story about how he had a red ink stamp that said "Size Is Everything." If he could write code tighter than what came across his desk, the proposed code was returned to the sender with the stamp right across it. That's not apocryphal. I know he didn't write it single handedly, but he did write quite a lot of it. Just read through the sources... His name is at the top in quite a few places... What isn't always told is that if you couldn't ever write tighter code (two or three iterations), Cutler used his own - but didn't necessarily take other names off it IIRC. Dad was pretty full of himself when he successfully argued Cutler out of 2 *bits* in a register for the error logging subsystem. It wasn't pigheadedness on either side, but you had to formally show something couldn't be done with n-1 bits. Even for n=2. Absolute brutality when it came to size. Memory hasn't been such an issue for a long time now, and now I'm off topic - sorry guys. We are indeed drifting way off hecnet here. I think I'll continue this outside of the list. I apologize for the drift as well... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Hello! Not really Johnny. I'm the one who should have stated that. I actually find this material interesting. And Steve? During the course of the month I shall be working to bring up an emulated VAX running VMS. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

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