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Johnny's new resolver, was Re: [HECnet] Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 12/18/2013 05:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: To get more on topic - I'm working on a name resolver for RSX right now. It's a totally awesome thing, and I only wish Unix (or even VMS) had something similar. So it resolves names. Nothing spectacular about that. But instead of having a resolv.conf, like Unix, I instead use a RESOLV$ORDER logical name to tell what kind of resolving I want. This has a comma separated list, and understands LOGICAL, FILE and DNS. FILE uses the file "HOSTS" to lookup IP address and name mappings. LOGICAL uses logical names for the mapping. DNS uses the domain name system. (With logical names giving the address of the DNS server, as well as what domain name to use.) So far, so good. Now, the neater part is that any user can (of course) override any part of this by having their own logical names for the resolve order, the HOSTS filename, add their own name resolutions through logical names, as well as having a different DNS server, or default domain name. And it uses almost no memory in the user process. Instead the interface goes through the I/O system to the TCP driver, which in turn invokes a separate ACP for the name resolving, and that ACP adopts the UIC and logical name tables of the process who did the call. Furthermore, the resolver ACP is multithreaded, and it do caching, even between different users (when applicable) and different programs. Sorry, I just had to brag a little on how cool that is. :-) (Now I just need to finish the DNS part of it.) Ok, now that really does sound cool! I need to get back into RSX. I haven't run it in a very long time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-12-18 23:52, Sampsa Laine wrote: On 19 Dec 2013, at 00:45, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: On 2013-12-18 23:37, Sampsa Laine wrote: On 19 Dec 2013, at 00:34, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: On 2013-12-18 23:20, Dave McGuire wrote: Where are the topic nazis today??! My god. That was a quick Godwin! But yeah, you are right. This is drifting very off-topic. Let's call it quits, especially since Godwin have been (sortof) invoked. :-) VMS don't speak arabic. 'Nuff said. This thread wasn't Godwined as such - there was no comparison to the Third Reich or Holocaust brought up. I did say "sortof". Nazi's were mentioned. :-) You gotta admit that was one of the better OT threads for a while :) It did actually contain facts and not just ramblings... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-12-18 23:37, Sampsa Laine wrote: On 19 Dec 2013, at 00:34, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: On 2013-12-18 23:20, Dave McGuire wrote: Where are the topic nazis today??! My god. That was a quick Godwin! But yeah, you are right. This is drifting very off-topic. Let's call it quits, especially since Godwin have been (sortof) invoked. :-) VMS don't speak arabic. 'Nuff said. This thread wasn't Godwined as such - there was no comparison to the Third Reich or Holocaust brought up. I did say "sortof". Nazi's were mentioned. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-12-18 23:34, Sampsa Laine wrote: On 19 Dec 2013, at 00:20, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: Where are the topic nazis today??! My bet is on someone slipping BQT some Xanax in his Latte.. Just as an FYI. I don't drink coffee. I also don't drink alcohol. I do, however, consume large amounts of Coca Cola. I've been working like crazy for a while now, and had lots of cheeze fondue last night, which I still can feel... To get more on topic - I'm working on a name resolver for RSX right now. It's a totally awesome thing, and I only wish Unix (or even VMS) had something similar. So it resolves names. Nothing spectacular about that. But instead of having a resolv.conf, like Unix, I instead use a RESOLV$ORDER logical name to tell what kind of resolving I want. This has a comma separated list, and understands LOGICAL, FILE and DNS. FILE uses the file "HOSTS" to lookup IP address and name mappings. LOGICAL uses logical names for the mapping. DNS uses the domain name system. (With logical names giving the address of the DNS server, as well as what domain name to use.) So far, so good. Now, the neater part is that any user can (of course) override any part of this by having their own logical names for the resolve order, the HOSTS filename, add their own name resolutions through logical names, as well as having a different DNS server, or default domain name. And it uses almost no memory in the user process. Instead the interface goes through the I/O system to the TCP driver, which in turn invokes a separate ACP for the name resolving, and that ACP adopts the UIC and logical name tables of the process who did the call. Furthermore, the resolver ACP is multithreaded, and it do caching, even between different users (when applicable) and different programs. Sorry, I just had to brag a little on how cool that is. :-) (Now I just need to finish the DNS part of it.) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by sampsa＠mac.com

On 19 Dec 2013, at 00:34, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: On 2013-12-18 23:20, Dave McGuire wrote: Where are the topic nazis today??! My god. That was a quick Godwin! But yeah, you are right. This is drifting very off-topic. Let's call it quits, especially since Godwin have been (sortof) invoked. :-) VMS don't speak arabic. 'Nuff said. This thread wasn't Godwined as such - there was no comparison to the Third Reich or Holocaust brought up. On another note, as the original asker of the question, I find the answers highly useful and informative. Thanks guys. Sampsa

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-12-18 23:20, Dave McGuire wrote: Where are the topic nazis today??! My god. That was a quick Godwin! But yeah, you are right. This is drifting very off-topic. Let's call it quits, especially since Godwin have been (sortof) invoked. :-) VMS don't speak arabic. 'Nuff said. Johnny On 12/18/2013 05:13 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2013-12-18 22:15, Sampsa Laine wrote: [...] who in turn got it from the Egypts... It all starts with those guys with the pyramids... True but turning hieratic into a simple alphabet was a move of genius - it enabled vastly more people to read and write as you didn't have to spend years memorising letters while trying to survive the Bronze Age or whatever. Yes. Also done by the Egypts... ;-) But the Greek were the first to get the vowels in. I'd say anything before that is broken. :-) Typical Indo-European bias :) In Semitic languages (which Phoenician is), short consonants don't really matter and long ones don't matter all that much, e.g. kitaab, ketaab, kataab all mean book.. Of course. And if you ask me, everyone should just speak Swedish. It's a much nicer language than any other alternative. And vowels are extremely important. Kr ka or Kr ka is the difference between a crow and to barf. I think it's an important distinction. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 12/18/2013 05:34 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote: Where are the topic nazis today??! My bet is on someone slipping BQT some Xanax in his Latte.. That would explain it! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by sampsa＠mac.com

On 19 Dec 2013, at 00:20, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: Where are the topic nazis today??! My bet is on someone slipping BQT some Xanax in his Latte..

11 years, 7 months

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Why does FAL generate this many reply packets?

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On Dec 18, 2013, at 5:17 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: On 2013-12-18 23:05, Sampsa Laine wrote: I'm copying some files over from CHIMPY to RFSAXP and did a MONITOR DECNET in another window and got these rather strage results: CUR AVE MIN MAX Arriving Local Packet Rate 404.98 412.40 398.89 424.22 Departng Local Packet Rate 149.99 170.02 148.96 195.28 So I'm guessing FAL sends a BIG packet of data when transmitting a file, and the other side replies with multiple ACKs or something? Is the local machine the one sending the file? It might be something with flow control, where the receiver acks, and then later sends an update that more data can be accepted maybe? I don't know/recall enough of DECnet communications off the top of my head to properly commenet. :-) I believe VMS uses segment flow control. So at least every couple of segments it will have to send a flow control message, which is separate from the data messages. And flow control messages (unlike the analogous thing in TCP) are acknowledged. paul

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

Where are the topic nazis today??! On 12/18/2013 05:13 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2013-12-18 22:15, Sampsa Laine wrote: [...] who in turn got it from the Egypts... It all starts with those guys with the pyramids... True but turning hieratic into a simple alphabet was a move of genius - it enabled vastly more people to read and write as you didn't have to spend years memorising letters while trying to survive the Bronze Age or whatever. Yes. Also done by the Egypts... ;-) But the Greek were the first to get the vowels in. I'd say anything before that is broken. :-) Typical Indo-European bias :) In Semitic languages (which Phoenician is), short consonants don't really matter and long ones don't matter all that much, e.g. kitaab, ketaab, kataab all mean book.. Of course. And if you ask me, everyone should just speak Swedish. It's a much nicer language than any other alternative. And vowels are extremely important. Kr ka or Kr ka is the difference between a crow and to barf. I think it's an important distinction. :-) Johnny -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

11 years, 7 months

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0 0

Why does FAL generate this many reply packets?

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-12-18 23:05, Sampsa Laine wrote: I'm copying some files over from CHIMPY to RFSAXP and did a MONITOR DECNET in another window and got these rather strage results: CUR AVE MIN MAX Arriving Local Packet Rate 404.98 412.40 398.89 424.22 Departng Local Packet Rate 149.99 170.02 148.96 195.28 So I'm guessing FAL sends a BIG packet of data when transmitting a file, and the other side replies with multiple ACKs or something? Is the local machine the one sending the file? It might be something with flow control, where the receiver acks, and then later sends an update that more data can be accepted maybe? I don't know/recall enough of DECnet communications off the top of my head to properly commenet. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

11 years, 7 months

1
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0 0

Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-12-18 22:15, Sampsa Laine wrote: [...] who in turn got it from the Egypts... It all starts with those guys with the pyramids... True but turning hieratic into a simple alphabet was a move of genius - it enabled vastly more people to read and write as you didn't have to spend years memorising letters while trying to survive the Bronze Age or whatever. Yes. Also done by the Egypts... ;-) But the Greek were the first to get the vowels in. I'd say anything before that is broken. :-) Typical Indo-European bias :) In Semitic languages (which Phoenician is), short consonants don't really matter and long ones don't matter all that much, e.g. kitaab, ketaab, kataab all mean book.. Of course. And if you ask me, everyone should just speak Swedish. It's a much nicer language than any other alternative. And vowels are extremely important. Kr ka or Kr ka is the difference between a crow and to barf. I think it's an important distinction. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

11 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

Why does FAL generate this many reply packets?

by sampsa＠mac.com

I'm copying some files over from CHIMPY to RFSAXP and did a MONITOR DECNET in another window and got these rather strage results: CUR AVE MIN MAX Arriving Local Packet Rate 404.98 412.40 398.89 424.22 Departng Local Packet Rate 149.99 170.02 148.96 195.28 So I'm guessing FAL sends a BIG packet of data when transmitting a file, and the other side replies with multiple ACKs or something? Sampsa

11 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by sampsa＠mac.com

[...] who in turn got it from the Egypts... It all starts with those guys with the pyramids... True but turning hieratic into a simple alphabet was a move of genius - it enabled vastly more people to read and write as you didn't have to spend years memorising letters while trying to survive the Bronze Age or whatever. But the Greek were the first to get the vowels in. I'd say anything before that is broken. :-) Typical Indo-European bias :) In Semitic languages (which Phoenician is), short consonants don't really matter and long ones don't matter all that much, e.g. kitaab, ketaab, kataab all mean book..

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-12-18 21:28, Sampsa Laine wrote: sampsa <sampsa at mac.com> mobile +44 7961 149465 On 18 Dec 2013, at 22:12, Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote: Hello! What's wrong with ordinary English characters, and all upper case? It wasn't until the development of the computer, that teletypes suddenly found themselves speaking upper and lower case. ----- I think you'll find they're LATIN characters, derived from the Etruscans, who got their script from the Greeks who in turn got it from Byblos, Lebanon, AKA Jbeil. Great little town, pretty girls, good food and awesome little corner bars in the medieval souq. [...] who in turn got it from the Egypts... It all starts with those guys with the pyramids... But the Greek were the first to get the vowels in. I'd say anything before that is broken. :-) And VMS itself still expects ASCII, accepts Latin-1, and anything beyond that is outside VMS proper, and might work in specific programs and so on... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_alphabet Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On Dec 18, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote: On Dec 18, 2013, at 2:47 PM, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote: ... Who needs vowels anyway? They're for children. They sure seem to be plenty of vowels in Finnish! Which is why writing it in consonant-only script guarantees ensuing hilarity! All I know about Finnish is 15 cases and lots of umlauts . :-) But yes, I can see how that would produce lots of hilarity. And/or confusion. paul

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com

Hello! So? Most computer systems aren't aware of the history of their text. Take ASCII for example, most of us know what and why it was created. Also the code page CP437. But do the machines care? I suspect not. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote: sampsa <sampsa at mac.com> mobile +44 7961 149465 On 18 Dec 2013, at 22:12, Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote: Hello! What's wrong with ordinary English characters, and all upper case? It wasn't until the development of the computer, that teletypes suddenly found themselves speaking upper and lower case. ----- I think you'll find they're LATIN characters, derived from the Etruscans, who got their script from the Greeks who in turn got it from Byblos, Lebanon, AKA Jbeil. Great little town, pretty girls, good food and awesome little corner bars in the medieval souq.

11 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by sampsa＠mac.com

sampsa <sampsa at mac.com> mobile +44 7961 149465 On 18 Dec 2013, at 22:12, Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote: Hello! What's wrong with ordinary English characters, and all upper case? It wasn't until the development of the computer, that teletypes suddenly found themselves speaking upper and lower case. ----- I think you'll find they're LATIN characters, derived from the Etruscans, who got their script from the Greeks who in turn got it from Byblos, Lebanon, AKA Jbeil. Great little town, pretty girls, good food and awesome little corner bars in the medieval souq.

11 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com

Hello! What's wrong with ordinary English characters, and all upper case? It wasn't until the development of the computer, that teletypes suddenly found themselves speaking upper and lower case. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote: On 18 Dec 2013, at 21:58, Dennis Boone <drb at msu.edu> wrote: I say screw this and we all learn Phoenician and standardise on that! Hieratic Ancient Egyptian or go home. :) Bit too high class for me, I'm more of a Gubal kinda guy - Phoenicia FTW. Besides, they still have nice bars in the souk.

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by sampsa＠mac.com

On 18 Dec 2013, at 21:58, Dennis Boone <drb at msu.edu> wrote: I say screw this and we all learn Phoenician and standardise on that! Hieratic Ancient Egyptian or go home. :) Bit too high class for me, I'm more of a Gubal kinda guy - Phoenicia FTW. Besides, they still have nice bars in the souk.

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by drb＠msu.edu

I say screw this and we all learn Phoenician and standardise on that! Hieratic Ancient Egyptian or go home. :) De

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On Dec 18, 2013, at 2:47 PM, Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> wrote: ... Who needs vowels anyway? They're for children. They sure seem to be plenty of vowels in Finnish! paul

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by sampsa＠mac.com

On 18 Dec 2013, at 21:20, Dennis Boone <drb at msu.edu> wrote: Are these encoded as four separate characters or is the renderer meant to figure out the ligatures and render the correct form of MEEM when presented with it from memory? In both 8859-6 and unicode, there is one code point for the letter, and the renderer is to figure out which form belongs at that place in the text. It appears that xterm isn't really able to do this. It may also screw up the Unicode bi-directional algorithm, since I see the Arabic characters in L-R order. Not sure if one could sort this out by embedding RLE/PDF characters; my unicode entry setup is in a state of disarray due to upgrades. I say screw this and we all learn Phoenician and standardise on that! Who needs vowels anyway? They're for children.

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by drb＠msu.edu

Are these encoded as four separate characters or is the renderer meant to figure out the ligatures and render the correct form of MEEM when presented with it from memory? In both 8859-6 and unicode, there is one code point for the letter, and the renderer is to figure out which form belongs at that place in the text. It appears that xterm isn't really able to do this. It may also screw up the Unicode bi-directional algorithm, since I see the Arabic characters in L-R order. Not sure if one could sort this out by embedding RLE/PDF characters; my unicode entry setup is in a state of disarray due to upgrades. De

11 years, 7 months

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Arabic / Unicode support on VMS?

by sampsa＠mac.com

On 18 Dec 2013, at 18:58, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: I'd say it's safe to assume that VMS do not do any advanced stuff that you're looking for now, Sampsa. You might have a separate application that can understand all this, but VMS itself do not. In general, each byte is one character, and once output, it stays. Any rendering of characters differently depending on position will either have to be done inside the terminal, or else by special software in VMS, which is not a part of any normal piece. What a shame, mind you Microsoft Word couldn't figure this out until about 2007 and the Terminal.app on my Mac still can't join letters.

11 years, 7 months

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