On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 06:35 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
A lot of people (myself included) insisted on direct-in-the-bus
printer controllers when we saw how badly serial printers tanked the
system when we connected them to DZ11s. ;)
Oh I can imagine that. A dedicated controller would have MUCH higher
bandwidth than the <1.5mbitcapable on the DZ11. ;)
It's the interrupt load that's the problem. It could TANK an 11/750.
Didn't the DZ11 depend on the CPU for interrupts?
Isn't that why say...the DHV11 had processors to offload serial processing to?
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 01/15/2014 06:39 PM, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
Yup. 'Twas still a nice line printer. I printed walls of boxes of greenbar
on the LXY21.
Glorious machines. I have two here; one DEC-badged and one Printronix
badged. The DEC-badged one is in pretty bad shape but may be
recoverable. The Printronix-badged one is nearly pristine and works great.
We should do a group buy of greenbar paper. I am running low.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 06:31 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
The LA120 was the de facto console terminal for the VAX-11/78*s. One
reason
why I have three; albeit, one has been cannibalized for parts.
I only have one!
I'm sure Dave could spare another, though...;)
No...I'm interested in sending some of my too-old-to-run yet
too-new-to-collect gear, like the remaining two Sun Fire 6800s. As for
vintage stuff, vintage DEC stuff in particular, I am in acquisition
mode. I've only sent stuff along to you because I'm trying to support
your learning and restoration efforts.
Ahhhh. I can understand that. I said it mostly-jokingly, anyway. ;) I'm not quite sure where I'll put THIS one...let alone more. ;)
Thanks for supporting my learning and restoration. I just need to get those bootstrap modules and a working DEC floppy drive.
I'll gladly take a 6800. ;)
I can make COMPLETE use of 24 processors! As it'll take a IV...that's dual-core right? Meaning...48 cores!
*me mumbles something about a buildbox*
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> writes:
On 01/15/2014 06:17 PM, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> writes:
So, out of interest, what was the last/most reliable/most desirable DEC
true line printer - i.e. chain/band rather than matrix?
My first year at college ~ 1990 included VAX/Pascal programming with
assignments printed to a true line printer.
Happy times in that lovely warm computer room on cold, dark winter days...
IMHO, the LXY21!
The LXY21 is a matrix printer, a re-badged Printronix machine.
Yup. 'Twas still a nice line printer. I printed walls of boxes of greenbar
on the LXY21.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
On 01/15/2014 06:35 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
A lot of people (myself included) insisted on direct-in-the-bus
printer controllers when we saw how badly serial printers tanked the
system when we connected them to DZ11s. ;)
Oh I can imagine that. A dedicated controller would have MUCH higher
bandwidth than the <1.5mbitcapable on the DZ11. ;)
It's the interrupt load that's the problem. It could TANK an 11/750.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 01/15/2014 06:31 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
The LA120 was the de facto console terminal for the VAX-11/78*s. One
reason
why I have three; albeit, one has been cannibalized for parts.
I only have one!
I'm sure Dave could spare another, though...;)
No...I'm interested in sending some of my too-old-to-run yet
too-new-to-collect gear, like the remaining two Sun Fire 6800s. As for
vintage stuff, vintage DEC stuff in particular, I am in acquisition
mode. I've only sent stuff along to you because I'm trying to support
your learning and restoration efforts.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 01/15/2014 06:17 PM, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> writes:
So, out of interest, what was the last/most reliable/most desirable DEC
true line printer - i.e. chain/band rather than matrix?
My first year at college ~ 1990 included VAX/Pascal programming with
assignments printed to a true line printer.
Happy times in that lovely warm computer room on cold, dark winter days...
IMHO, the LXY21!
The LXY21 is a matrix printer, a re-badged Printronix machine.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 06:27 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
The LA180 has more in common with the LA120 than the LA36. There is
also a serially-interfaced variant of the LA180, which has a
serial-to-parallel (*NOT* "Centronics" parallel, for others reading
this) converter board mounted internally.
That's...quite interesting. Why is it parallel internally...
Because the primary intended configuration for those printers is with
dedicated printer controller boards like the LP11, LPV11, and LS11.
Ahhhhh. Interesting design choice, to be honest. I bet it was a bit
proprietary though....fast as well.
Of course it's proprietary. You ordered a printer from DEC when you
ordered your computer from DEC. It was a very different world back then.
True. I don't it's too difficult to adapt adapters, though.
A lot of people (myself included) insisted on direct-in-the-bus
printer controllers when we saw how badly serial printers tanked the
system when we connected them to DZ11s. ;)
Oh I can imagine that. A dedicated controller would have MUCH higher bandwidth than the <1.5mbitcapable on the DZ11. ;)
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 01/15/2014 06:27 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
The LA180 has more in common with the LA120 than the LA36. There is
also a serially-interfaced variant of the LA180, which has a
serial-to-parallel (*NOT* "Centronics" parallel, for others reading
this) converter board mounted internally.
That's...quite interesting. Why is it parallel internally...
Because the primary intended configuration for those printers is with
dedicated printer controller boards like the LP11, LPV11, and LS11.
Ahhhhh. Interesting design choice, to be honest. I bet it was a bit
proprietary though....fast as well.
Of course it's proprietary. You ordered a printer from DEC when you
ordered your computer from DEC. It was a very different world back then.
A lot of people (myself included) insisted on direct-in-the-bus
printer controllers when we saw how badly serial printers tanked the
system when we connected them to DZ11s. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> writes:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 01:20 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
No receive-only LA120?! ;)
(Is that was the LA180 is? I can't remember what the models number for
the receive-only LA120 was.) I like my printers big. ;)
There is in fact a receive-only LA120. There's one here at my place,
though it belongs to someone else. I've forgotten the model suffix.
I've forgotten it as well. Heh.
The LA180 is one that I've always thought of as an independent device.
It is considerably faster than the LA36 (180 CPS vs. 30 CPS) for
starters...so I'd doubt it was derived from the LA36. But then why
would it have been derived from the LA120, when the LA120 family already
has a print-only version? And it tops out at 120CPS, and prints
bidirectionally...the LA180 is unidirectional. The LA120 is also FAR
"smarter", with runtime-configurable setup options, escape sequence
processing for settings, etc. The LA180 does none of that.
Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> writes:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 01:20 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
No receive-only LA120?! ;)
(Is that was the LA180 is? I can't remember what the models number for
the receive-only LA120 was.) I like my printers big. ;)
There is in fact a receive-only LA120. There's one here at my place,
though it belongs to someone else. I've forgotten the model suffix.
I've forgotten it as well. Heh.
The LA180 is one that I've always thought of as an independent device.
It is considerably faster than the LA36 (180 CPS vs. 30 CPS) for
starters...so I'd doubt it was derived from the LA36. But then why
would it have been derived from the LA120, when the LA120 family already
has a print-only version? And it tops out at 120CPS, and prints
bidirectionally...the LA180 is unidirectional. The LA120 is also FAR
"smarter", with runtime-configurable setup options, escape sequence
processing for settings, etc. The LA180 does none of that.
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
There was a 20ma CL option (serial) if the EIA serial did not suffice.
Schematics for the 20mA loop board are in the printset.
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 06:00 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
The LA180 receive-only printer was, I think, a derivative of the
LA36, not the LA120. The 1976 Peripheral handbook seems to support
that. Note that there also was an LA35, a receive-only variant of
the LA36. The difference is that the LA35 had a serial interface
while the LA180 had a parallel (line printer style) interface.
The LA180 has more in common with the LA120 than the LA36. There is
also a serially-interfaced variant of the LA180, which has a
serial-to-parallel (*NOT* "Centronics" parallel, for others reading
this) converter board mounted internally.
That's...quite interesting. Why is it parallel internally...
Because the primary intended configuration for those printers is with
dedicated printer controller boards like the LP11, LPV11, and LS11.
Ahhhhh. Interesting design choice, to be honest. I bet it was a bit proprietary though....fast as well.
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 01/15/2014 06:00 PM, Mark Wickens wrote:
I searched for DEC LP27 printer and came across this treasure chest:
http://www1.appstate.edu/~jmm/operations.tour.html
Not sure it'll be the same since the last update in 1994!
Oh, the PORN!!
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 01:20 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
No receive-only LA120?! ;)
(Is that was the LA180 is? I can't remember what the models number for
the receive-only LA120 was.) I like my printers big. ;)
There is in fact a receive-only LA120. There's one here at my place,
though it belongs to someone else. I've forgotten the model suffix.
I've forgotten it as well. Heh.
The LA180 is one that I've always thought of as an independent device.
It is considerably faster than the LA36 (180 CPS vs. 30 CPS) for
starters...so I'd doubt it was derived from the LA36. But then why
would it have been derived from the LA120, when the LA120 family already
has a print-only version? And it tops out at 120CPS, and prints
bidirectionally...the LA180 is unidirectional. The LA120 is also FAR
"smarter", with runtime-configurable setup options, escape sequence
processing for settings, etc. The LA180 does none of that.
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> writes:
On 01/15/2014 01:20 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
The chances of a printer turning up in Perth, WA are zip. If I had to
pay money for one "desert island" DEC printer. What would it be?
I'm not sure it'd be fair to designate one printer out of so many
different models, with such different capabilities.
My opinion, though...If you're talking about an output-only device,
assuming for the minicomputer family, my personal favorite is the LA180.
It has its faults (unidirectional printing comes to mind) but overall
it's a great printer. My opinion of it is not objective because I had
one for years on my first PDP-11.
No receive-only LA120?! ;)
(Is that was the LA180 is? I can't remember what the models number for
the receive-only LA120 was.) I like my printers big. ;)
There is in fact a receive-only LA120. There's one here at my place,
though it belongs to someone else. I've forgotten the model suffix.
The LA180 is one that I've always thought of as an independent device.
It is considerably faster than the LA36 (180 CPS vs. 30 CPS) for
starters...so I'd doubt it was derived from the LA36. But then why
would it have been derived from the LA120, when the LA120 family already
has a print-only version? And it tops out at 120CPS, and prints
bidirectionally...the LA180 is unidirectional. The LA120 is also FAR
"smarter", with runtime-configurable setup options, escape sequence
processing for settings, etc. The LA180 does none of that.
I'm fairly certain (though have not verified) that the ONLY interface
available on the LA120 family is serial. The LA180 uses a much more
system-friendly LP[v]11 or LS11 interface. That may be the
difference...target market, etc.
There was a 20ma CL option (serial) if the EIA serial did not suffice.
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
On 01/15/2014 06:00 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
The LA180 receive-only printer was, I think, a derivative of the
LA36, not the LA120. The 1976 Peripheral handbook seems to support
that. Note that there also was an LA35, a receive-only variant of
the LA36. The difference is that the LA35 had a serial interface
while the LA180 had a parallel (line printer style) interface.
The LA180 has more in common with the LA120 than the LA36. There is
also a serially-interfaced variant of the LA180, which has a
serial-to-parallel (*NOT* "Centronics" parallel, for others reading
this) converter board mounted internally.
That's...quite interesting. Why is it parallel internally...
Because the primary intended configuration for those printers is with
dedicated printer controller boards like the LP11, LPV11, and LS11.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 01/15/2014 01:20 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
The chances of a printer turning up in Perth, WA are zip. If I had to
pay money for one "desert island" DEC printer. What would it be?
I'm not sure it'd be fair to designate one printer out of so many
different models, with such different capabilities.
My opinion, though...If you're talking about an output-only device,
assuming for the minicomputer family, my personal favorite is the LA180.
It has its faults (unidirectional printing comes to mind) but overall
it's a great printer. My opinion of it is not objective because I had
one for years on my first PDP-11.
No receive-only LA120?! ;)
(Is that was the LA180 is? I can't remember what the models number for
the receive-only LA120 was.) I like my printers big. ;)
There is in fact a receive-only LA120. There's one here at my place,
though it belongs to someone else. I've forgotten the model suffix.
The LA180 is one that I've always thought of as an independent device.
It is considerably faster than the LA36 (180 CPS vs. 30 CPS) for
starters...so I'd doubt it was derived from the LA36. But then why
would it have been derived from the LA120, when the LA120 family already
has a print-only version? And it tops out at 120CPS, and prints
bidirectionally...the LA180 is unidirectional. The LA120 is also FAR
"smarter", with runtime-configurable setup options, escape sequence
processing for settings, etc. The LA180 does none of that.
I'm fairly certain (though have not verified) that the ONLY interface
available on the LA120 family is serial. The LA180 uses a much more
system-friendly LP[v]11 or LS11 interface. That may be the
difference...target market, etc.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> writes:
So, out of interest, what was the last/most reliable/most desirable DEC
true line printer - i.e. chain/band rather than matrix?
My first year at college ~ 1990 included VAX/Pascal programming with
assignments printed to a true line printer.
Happy times in that lovely warm computer room on cold, dark winter days...
IMHO, the LXY21!
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
On 16 Jan 2014 07:00, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> wrote: > > On 15/01/2014 22:35, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> >> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On 01/15/2014 04:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> >>>> They are line printers. Which means they are large, heavy, fast, and >>>> very noisy. I have not seen any in the last 20 years now. I remember >>>> when we dragged an LP14 out of the computer room. Two people with >>>> shoulder straps, and we barely managed to lift it an inch off the floor >>>> while dragging it out. >>>> >>>> I really like the line printers, but they are not for home use... But >>>> they work fine on a PDP-11 as well. You just need an LP11 card in the >>>> machine. (Or LPV11 if you're a Qbus person.) >>> >>> >>> I have an LP26, an LP27, two LXY21s, and a Genicom (forgot what model, >>> but as I understand it it's still a current model) line printer here. >>> Great stuff. >>> >>> I see no reason why these would "not be for home use". ;) >>> >> >> They're fine for /our/ homes...but not perhaps for everyone. ;) >> >>> -Dave >>> >>> >> > I searched for DEC LP27 printer and came across this treasure chest: http://www1.appstate.edu/~jmm/operations.tour.html > Not sure it'll be the same since the last update in 1994! >
Interestingly enough, here in sunny Perth, WA the state owned ticketing office was called BOCS and ran entirely on VAXen and other DEC equipment, using software they developed, right up until they were shut down. I wonder if the VAX mentioned on that page, called bocs, is/was running the same stuff.
Regards, Tim.
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 01:37 PM, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote:
The LA180 receive-only printer was, I think, a derivative of the
LA36, not the LA120. The 1976 Peripheral handbook seems to support
that. Note that there also was an LA35, a receive-only variant of
the LA36. The difference is that the LA35 had a serial interface
while the LA180 had a parallel (line printer style) interface.
The LA180 has more in common with the LA120 than the LA36. There is
also a serially-interfaced variant of the LA180, which has a
serial-to-parallel (*NOT* "Centronics" parallel, for others reading
this) converter board mounted internally.
That's...quite interesting. Why is it parallel internally...
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 15/01/2014 22:35, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 04:28 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
They are line printers. Which means they are large, heavy, fast, and
very noisy. I have not seen any in the last 20 years now. I remember
when we dragged an LP14 out of the computer room. Two people with
shoulder straps, and we barely managed to lift it an inch off the floor
while dragging it out.
I really like the line printers, but they are not for home use... But
they work fine on a PDP-11 as well. You just need an LP11 card in the
machine. (Or LPV11 if you're a Qbus person.)
I have an LP26, an LP27, two LXY21s, and a Genicom (forgot what model,
but as I understand it it's still a current model) line printer here.
Great stuff.
I see no reason why these would "not be for home use". ;)
They're fine for /our/ homes...but not perhaps for everyone. ;)
-Dave
I searched for DEC LP27 printer and came across this treasure chest: http://www1.appstate.edu/~jmm/operations.tour.html
Not sure it'll be the same since the last update in 1994!
Mark.
--
http://www.wickensonline.co.ukhttp://hecnet.euhttp://declegacy.org.ukhttp://retrochallenge.nethttps://twitter.com/urbancamo
