On 2014-01-15 22:29, John Wilson wrote:
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:52:08 -0500
The DHV11 has a pair of 8051s on it. The DH11 is several boards full
of logic. It has buffering and DMA capability to offload the host
system...it needs much less hand-holding than the DZ11.
For *output*. They're all basically identical for input, and that's where
you'd actually need help (since you could lose data -- on output you just
might get behind). Offloading input processing would need the mux to be
close personal friends with the TTY driver in each OS, so I see why it
didn't happen, but it would have been *much* more useful.
I partly beg to disagree. Any normal usage would typically see at least ten times as much output as input. Input essentially means a user hammering away at a keyboard.
Offloading output makes a *huge* difference.
But sure, if you could offload input as well, noone would complain. But yes, that has a lot of additional headaches, since OSes tends to want to handle some characters special...
Johnny
Hello!
We are drifting very far afield now with this one. Originally the
poster was complaining about being able to find proper printer for
himself......
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 1:36 AM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/16/2014 01:30 AM, John Wilson wrote:
At the VCF showing where we met, you had a neighbor, who ran a
Straight 8 system. Next to it was a printer with attached keyboard (or
without it, I can't recall), and a Model 33 teletype with a coil of
paper tape attached to it. What would have been its DEC branded
printer?
The LT33. Um, which is an ASR33 -- not even rebadged (they just added
an additional DEC sticker to the back IIRC).
There's also the reader-run modification..
Was that an actual feature added...or just another sticker? ;)
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/16/2014 01:30 AM, John Wilson wrote:
At the VCF showing where we met, you had a neighbor, who ran a
Straight 8 system. Next to it was a printer with attached keyboard (or
without it, I can't recall), and a Model 33 teletype with a coil of
paper tape attached to it. What would have been its DEC branded
printer?
The LT33. Um, which is an ASR33 -- not even rebadged (they just added
an additional DEC sticker to the back IIRC).
There's also the reader-run modification..
Was that an actual feature added...or just another sticker? ;)
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 01/16/2014 01:30 AM, John Wilson wrote:
At the VCF showing where we met, you had a neighbor, who ran a
Straight 8 system. Next to it was a printer with attached keyboard (or
without it, I can't recall), and a Model 33 teletype with a coil of
paper tape attached to it. What would have been its DEC branded
printer?
The LT33. Um, which is an ASR33 -- not even rebadged (they just added
an additional DEC sticker to the back IIRC).
There's also the reader-run modification..
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
From: Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>
At the VCF showing where we met, you had a neighbor, who ran a
Straight 8 system. Next to it was a printer with attached keyboard (or
without it, I can't recall), and a Model 33 teletype with a coil of
paper tape attached to it. What would have been its DEC branded
printer?
The LT33. Um, which is an ASR33 -- not even rebadged (they just added
an additional DEC sticker to the back IIRC).
John Wilson
D Bit
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:52:08 -0500
The DHV11 has a pair of 8051s on it. The DH11 is several boards full
of logic. It has buffering and DMA capability to offload the host
system...it needs much less hand-holding than the DZ11.
For *output*. They're all basically identical for input, and that's where
you'd actually need help (since you could lose data -- on output you just
might get behind). Offloading input processing would need the mux to be
close personal friends with the TTY driver in each OS, so I see why it
didn't happen, but it would have been *much* more useful.
John Wilson
D Bit
From: <Paul_Koning at Dell.com>
The first device called DECwriter was the LA30, an amazing piece of junk
known to jam every few pages. It also came with a really bad keyboard.
Was it uppercase only?
Yes. I still have mine (LA30P -- no fill characters, but it needs a weird
LC8E interface, and did the LC11 exist too?). The jamming wasn't as annoying
as the fact that it could *only* take 9 7/8" wide paper (tractors were not
adjustable). And the timing was very finicky and didn't seem to use feedback
of any kind (so it had no idea when it printed entire characters as one column
of dots after the head had already finished stepping). But I was still super
impressed that it was so close to useful considering the ancient tech -- it
had a swing-out card-cage full of flip-chips instead of any real brain.
Unspeakably heavy though.
Next came the LA36, which was something entirely different. Rock solid, and
it didn t need fill after carriage return. Upper and lower case, of course.
Still too damn heavy! But yes much better.
The LA120, if I remember right, was the first DEC printing terminal to do
bidirectional printing.
Kick-ass printers (I have two).
The LA180 receive-only printer was, I think, a derivative of the LA36, not
the LA120.
This reminds me of something else but I can't believe I'm drawing a blank on
the name of the company -- who was it that sold a replacement controller
(might have been called something like DS120 or DS180) that turned an LA36
into something faster than an LA120?
John Wilson
D Bit
On 01/15/2014 08:09 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:
At the VCF showing where we met, you had a neighbor, who ran a
Straight 8 system.
Yes, Dave Gesswein. Beautiful system. That machine is the in the top
"holy grail" spot of my world.
Next to it was a printer with attached keyboard (or
without it, I can't recall), and a Model 33 teletype with a coil of
paper tape attached to it. What would have been its DEC branded
printer?
There wasn't one at the time, I believe. ASR33s were very common on
PDP-8 systems.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Hello!
Makes sense.
At the VCF showing where we met, you had a neighbor, who ran a
Straight 8 system. Next to it was a printer with attached keyboard (or
without it, I can't recall), and a Model 33 teletype with a coil of
paper tape attached to it. What would have been its DEC branded
printer?
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 01/15/2014 08:03 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:
I think they still make dot matrix ones for those applications that
only a printer like that would do. Which includes financials and real
estate and possible insurance.
Yes, dot matrix printers are still being manufactured. Their primary
use is for multi-part forms. One I've seen recently (last week) is an
Okidata Microline 320, with a USB interface, at a truck rental company.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 01/15/2014 08:03 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:
I think they still make dot matrix ones for those applications that
only a printer like that would do. Which includes financials and real
estate and possible insurance.
Yes, dot matrix printers are still being manufactured. Their primary
use is for multi-part forms. One I've seen recently (last week) is an
Okidata Microline 320, with a USB interface, at a truck rental company.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Hello!
Reminds me of how in our Apple days, my brother participated in a
course for computers in school. Naturally the others needed to wait
until after school, or worse the next day to do their homework. Jay
did his on ours. And had our new Epson MX100 printer print-out a fancy
banner for it. That printer worked its way past several systems. And
according to Epson they stopped making print heads for it, (alone)
before someone stopped making ribbons.
I think they still make dot matrix ones for those applications that
only a printer like that would do. Which includes financials and real
estate and possible insurance.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 07:20 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Heh! The DZ-11 is a hog. We all know that.
But the LP11 is not really much better. It's also interrupt per
character unless I remember wrong. But it's only one printer per card,
and no input. And of course, much faster, since it's parallel with
handshaking.
The Unibus controller I used at work, and later at home, with an LA180
was an LS11. I don't remember if it was interrupt-per-character as
well, but since it was fairly non-dense TTL logic, I'd assume it was.
It fared very well on my 11/34 running (at the time) RSX. In the
mid-1980s, I was the first person to turn in high-school homework on
printer paper. Even some of the teachers were asking what kind of
"typewriter" made such "strange-looking print". ;)
You've reminded me of how I was the only person a teacher knew who did a
science project narrated by Microsoft Sam.
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 07:20 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Heh! The DZ-11 is a hog. We all know that.
But the LP11 is not really much better. It's also interrupt per
character unless I remember wrong. But it's only one printer per card,
and no input. And of course, much faster, since it's parallel with
handshaking.
The Unibus controller I used at work, and later at home, with an LA180
was an LS11. I don't remember if it was interrupt-per-character as
well, but since it was fairly non-dense TTL logic, I'd assume it was.
It fared very well on my 11/34 running (at the time) RSX. In the
mid-1980s, I was the first person to turn in high-school homework on
printer paper. Even some of the teachers were asking what kind of
"typewriter" made such "strange-looking print". ;)
You've reminded me of how I was the only person a teacher knew who did a science project narrated by Microsoft Sam.
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 01/15/2014 07:20 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Heh! The DZ-11 is a hog. We all know that.
But the LP11 is not really much better. It's also interrupt per
character unless I remember wrong. But it's only one printer per card,
and no input. And of course, much faster, since it's parallel with
handshaking.
The Unibus controller I used at work, and later at home, with an LA180
was an LS11. I don't remember if it was interrupt-per-character as
well, but since it was fairly non-dense TTL logic, I'd assume it was.
It fared very well on my 11/34 running (at the time) RSX. In the
mid-1980s, I was the first person to turn in high-school homework on
printer paper. Even some of the teachers were asking what kind of
"typewriter" made such "strange-looking print". ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 2014-01-15 15:42, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 06:35 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
A lot of people (myself included) insisted on direct-in-the-bus
printer controllers when we saw how badly serial printers tanked the
system when we connected them to DZ11s. ;)
Oh I can imagine that. A dedicated controller would have MUCH higher
bandwidth than the <1.5mbitcapable on the DZ11. ;)
It's the interrupt load that's the problem. It could TANK an 11/750.
Didn't the DZ11 depend on the CPU for interrupts?
Eh... Every controller depends on the CPU for interrupts. That's what interrupts mean.
However, the problem with the DZ11 is that it generates interrupts for each character sent as well as each character received. It do have some smart in it, so you can get a few characters per interrupt under some circumstances, but the interface basically just killed a machine when you did lots of I/O, because of the interrupt load.
Isn't that why say...the DHV11 had processors to offload serial
processing to?
DH11, DHV11 and DHU11 all use DMA for output, meaning you only get one interrupt when the output is done. Which is *way* better.
Johnny
On 2014-01-15 15:31, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 06:27 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
The LA180 has more in common with the LA120 than the LA36. There is
also a serially-interfaced variant of the LA180, which has a
serial-to-parallel (*NOT* "Centronics" parallel, for others reading
this) converter board mounted internally.
That's...quite interesting. Why is it parallel internally...
Because the primary intended configuration for those printers is with
dedicated printer controller boards like the LP11, LPV11, and LS11.
Ahhhhh. Interesting design choice, to be honest. I bet it was a bit
proprietary though....fast as well.
Of course it's proprietary. You ordered a printer from DEC when you
ordered your computer from DEC. It was a very different world back then.
A lot of people (myself included) insisted on direct-in-the-bus
printer controllers when we saw how badly serial printers tanked the
system when we connected them to DZ11s. ;)
Heh! The DZ-11 is a hog. We all know that.
But the LP11 is not really much better. It's also interrupt per character unless I remember wrong. But it's only one printer per card, and no input. And of course, much faster, since it's parallel with handshaking.
Johnny
On 2014-01-15 15:28, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
The LA120 was the de facto console terminal for the VAX-11/78*s. One reason
why I have three; albeit, one has been cannibalized for parts.
Also standard on PDP-11s as well as DECsystem-10 and DECsystem-20 machines...
Update have at least three... (Or had, last I looked. Two with 20mA and one with RS-232.)
Johnny
On 2014-01-15 15:27, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 06:00 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
The LA180 receive-only printer was, I think, a derivative of the
LA36, not the LA120. The 1976 Peripheral handbook seems to support
that. Note that there also was an LA35, a receive-only variant of
the LA36. The difference is that the LA35 had a serial interface
while the LA180 had a parallel (line printer style) interface.
The LA180 has more in common with the LA120 than the LA36. There is
also a serially-interfaced variant of the LA180, which has a
serial-to-parallel (*NOT* "Centronics" parallel, for others reading
this) converter board mounted internally.
That's...quite interesting. Why is it parallel internally...
Because the primary intended configuration for those printers is with
dedicated printer controller boards like the LP11, LPV11, and LS11.
Ahhhhh. Interesting design choice, to be honest. I bet it was a bit
proprietary though....fast as well.
The interface on the LP11 is extremely close to Centronics. You need to invert a signal or two (I don't remember the details, but I did this many years ago for an LP8 controller). After that, you're all set.
It's much faster than serial, but no speed daemon.
Johnny
On 2014-01-15 15:17, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> writes:
So, out of interest, what was the last/most reliable/most desirable DEC
true line printer - i.e. chain/band rather than matrix?
My first year at college ~ 1990 included VAX/Pascal programming with
assignments printed to a true line printer.
Happy times in that lovely warm computer room on cold, dark winter days...
IMHO, the LXY21!
Never used that one, but my experience with the LP26 and LP27 are good. I never had any problems with them. Never had problems with the LP14 either, as far as I can remember, but it was a beast.
Johnny
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 06:57 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Note that these are larger-than-normal racks, and they're very
difficult to move. They weigh about 1200lbs. I've moved a pair of
these machines by myself without proper equipment, and thus at great
personal risk, to my old place a few years ago. I did so out of
necessity. The story (with pics) is here:
http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Sun_Fire_6800_Unload
DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. I could very easily have gotten killed in
that operation. "Regular" racks are one thing...these weigh well over
half a ton, and are a different matter entirely.
Well, I'll stick it in the room where a piano used to sit. It should
hold there. ;) (Also no need for stairs, then.)
Measure the doorways. I have to rent special trucks to move 6800s due
to their height. If memory serves, they are 76" tall.
I think that would barely fit. Maybe i'll want to build a little shed for it. ;)
I could also fairly easily rig something up with a switch to change
between that and the oven, then...as nowhere else would I have minimum
30A service save for upstairs and the air conditioner. ;)
You'll have to do more than that. That machine has FOUR 230V 30A
power cables. It can run on two.
That would be a bit harder to manage. ;)
Getting to 230V is easy. Getting to 230V with 30A each is harder.
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 01/15/2014 06:57 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Note that these are larger-than-normal racks, and they're very
difficult to move. They weigh about 1200lbs. I've moved a pair of
these machines by myself without proper equipment, and thus at great
personal risk, to my old place a few years ago. I did so out of
necessity. The story (with pics) is here:
http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Sun_Fire_6800_Unload
DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. I could very easily have gotten killed in
that operation. "Regular" racks are one thing...these weigh well over
half a ton, and are a different matter entirely.
Well, I'll stick it in the room where a piano used to sit. It should
hold there. ;) (Also no need for stairs, then.)
Measure the doorways. I have to rent special trucks to move 6800s due
to their height. If memory serves, they are 76" tall.
I could also fairly easily rig something up with a switch to change
between that and the oven, then...as nowhere else would I have minimum
30A service save for upstairs and the air conditioner. ;)
You'll have to do more than that. That machine has FOUR 230V 30A
power cables. It can run on two.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 2014-01-15 14:18, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> writes:
On 2014-01-14 03:44, Sampsa Laine wrote:
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +44 7961 149465
On 14 Jan 2014, at 13:42, "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system at TMESIS.COM> wrote:
Sampsa Laine <sampsa at mac.com> writes:
Anybody know what happened with that discussion re: EISNER and HECnet?
Also, is EISNER even up any more? I can't seem to connect to it.
EISNER is being or has been physically relocated. Once it is back up, I'll
see what can be done about getting it connected to HECnet. I have no idea
what'll be available network-wise/router-wise until EISNER is back on-line.
Mind you with such a large change anyway, it might be a good time to "sneak in" the connection to HECnet :)
I totally dislike the "sneak in" comment. If it is going to happen, it
must be done very openly and consciously. Noone will benefit from trying
to sneak something in.
Once Eisner has been reconnected and revived -- seriously, I do not know
why this relocation effort is taking so long -- I will communicate with
the new caretakes about their router config; hopefully, it's a Cisco box
that can support the DECnet tunnel. I doubt that there would be a Linux
box there that would serve as a gateway.
If they are running Multinet, you could also setup a link using that.
Johnny
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 06:42 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
A lot of people (myself included) insisted on direct-in-the-bus
printer controllers when we saw how badly serial printers tanked the
system when we connected them to DZ11s. ;)
Oh I can imagine that. A dedicated controller would have MUCH higher
bandwidth than the <1.5mbitcapable on the DZ11. ;)
It's the interrupt load that's the problem. It could TANK an 11/750.
Didn't the DZ11 depend on the CPU for interrupts?
Every interrupt depends on the CPU. ;)
True...but offloading helps cut down on the other stuff it needs to process. ;)
Isn't that why say...the DHV11 had processors to offload serial
processing to?
The DHV11 has a pair of 8051s on it. The DH11 is several boards full
of logic. It has buffering and DMA capability to offload the host
system...it needs much less hand-holding than the DZ11.
Ahh. I thought it was something like that.
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On Wed, 15 Jan 2014, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 01/15/2014 06:41 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
I'll gladly take a 6800. ;)
I can make COMPLETE use of 24 processors! As it'll take a IV...that's
dual-core right? Meaning...48 cores!
Even the processors that are in them have GREAT BIG CLANGING BALLS. I
just have no use for them here. If you want one, you can have one. I
will deliver it to your driveway, but you must bear the expense. That
will primarily consist of truck rental fees and fuel. I could probably
get one to you for about $250.
That isn't that bad. I could handle that with time.
Note that these are larger-than-normal racks, and they're very
difficult to move. They weigh about 1200lbs. I've moved a pair of
these machines by myself without proper equipment, and thus at great
personal risk, to my old place a few years ago. I did so out of
necessity. The story (with pics) is here:
http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Sun_Fire_6800_Unload
DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. I could very easily have gotten killed in
that operation. "Regular" racks are one thing...these weigh well over
half a ton, and are a different matter entirely.
Well, I'll stick it in the room where a piano used to sit. It should hold there. ;) (Also no need for stairs, then.)
I could also fairly easily rig something up with a switch to change between that and the oven, then...as nowhere else would I have minimum 30A service save for upstairs and the air conditioner. ;)
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 01/15/2014 06:42 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
A lot of people (myself included) insisted on direct-in-the-bus
printer controllers when we saw how badly serial printers tanked the
system when we connected them to DZ11s. ;)
Oh I can imagine that. A dedicated controller would have MUCH higher
bandwidth than the <1.5mbitcapable on the DZ11. ;)
It's the interrupt load that's the problem. It could TANK an 11/750.
Didn't the DZ11 depend on the CPU for interrupts?
Every interrupt depends on the CPU. ;)
Isn't that why say...the DHV11 had processors to offload serial
processing to?
The DHV11 has a pair of 8051s on it. The DH11 is several boards full
of logic. It has buffering and DMA capability to offload the host
system...it needs much less hand-holding than the DZ11.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 01/15/2014 06:41 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
I'll gladly take a 6800. ;)
I can make COMPLETE use of 24 processors! As it'll take a IV...that's
dual-core right? Meaning...48 cores!
Even the processors that are in them have GREAT BIG CLANGING BALLS. I
just have no use for them here. If you want one, you can have one. I
will deliver it to your driveway, but you must bear the expense. That
will primarily consist of truck rental fees and fuel. I could probably
get one to you for about $250.
Note that these are larger-than-normal racks, and they're very
difficult to move. They weigh about 1200lbs. I've moved a pair of
these machines by myself without proper equipment, and thus at great
personal risk, to my old place a few years ago. I did so out of
necessity. The story (with pics) is here:
http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Sun_Fire_6800_Unload
DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. I could very easily have gotten killed in
that operation. "Regular" racks are one thing...these weigh well over
half a ton, and are a different matter entirely.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA