On Jan 8, 2013, at 3:04 PM, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> writes:
On 01/08/2013 02:55 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> I've always wondered
about VMS sources: how they are actually distributed >>> today and how
much space they take? Is a CD-ROM enough for everything? And in >>>
which format are they? Just simple text files in a bunch of directories
or >>> there is something fancier such as some cross references and
indexes? >> >> They used to make source *listings* available on fiche;
I have several >> sets of those. It's a stack of fiche maybe 3-4"
thick. > > How old are these "listings"?
I haven't looked at them in years, but I think I have at least 5.1 and
5.2, possibly 4.7.
But who needs the source listings when you've got access to the poor-man's
microfiche?
Can't search microfiche, and a fiche reader is a clumsy and hard to use contraption.
paul
You have to understand, the concept of "Open Source" is not new. Most vendors supplied the source listing, and sometime even the code. There was a fee to copy it all (it was said in the old day it was impossible to write a mag tape anywhere for less than $100). So the fees we really set high enough to keep the idiots away, but low enough that the customers that needed them could get them.
Remember a lot of it was in assembler, so it did you little good unless you had the vendors HW. A few things changed that all. First, the practice became less prevalent by the later 1970s primarily because of the Amadhl Corp making and selling a 360/370 clone. Interestingly enough, DEC did not sue CalData because of the SW. It was because they cloned the Unibus AND used the PDP-11 instruction set. Second once writing more and more of the OS in a High Level Language became de rigor, the ability to "steal" SW IP seemed to be more of an issue (although DEC was in good shape because no one but DEC would use BLISS).
So around the late 1970s, DEC and most other vendors began to be more protective.
On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 01/08/2013 02:51 PM, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
> You need to first sign and pay for a source listings license agreement.
> Back many years ago, IIRC, it was about $2K. There's then maintenance
> that must be paid yearly to get the listings CDs/DVDs when produced.
I am nothing short of astonished that it was that cheap!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 01/08/2013 08:48 PM, Peter Lothberg wrote:
Dave, do you se and improvement/degradation of the
cisco-tunnel-to-johhny-bridged-ethernet part of Hecnet?
Hi Peter! I thought things seemed a bit snappier when I did a few
things yesterday, but I didn't take any measurements, and figured it was
just a low-traffic period. Why do you ask?
Se my previous post, do the same thing, IP address on your side?
I had a small cisco router sent to Uppsala and they installed it on
the ethernet there, so now we have a Cisco box acting as area router
attached to the magic ethernet at Update.
(And they are not far from me network topology vise, 10G links...)
1 DEC-GW.Stupi.SE (192.108.200.210) 4 msec 0 msec 4 msec
2 BFR5-SRP-13-0.Stupi.NET (194.71.10.30) 4 msec 4 msec 4 msec
3 t1fre-ge-3-2-0.sunet.se (130.242.94.221) 4 msec 4 msec 4 msec
4 m1fre-ae1-v1.sunet.se (130.242.83.45) 4 msec 4 msec 4 msec
5 uu-br1-xe-1-2-0.sunet.se (130.242.85.134) 4 msec 4 msec 4 msec
6 uu-g.sunet.se (193.11.0.234) 4 msec 4 msec 4 msec
7 130.238.6.231 8 msec 8 msec 12 msec
8 Platburk.Update.UU.SE (130.238.19.60) 8 msec * 8 msec
--P
Peter,
Thank you. The IP on my side is 174.4.172.207. I will get everything set up on my end in a few hours when I get a chance.
Ian
On 2013-01-08, at 12:01 PM, Peter Lothberg <roll at Stupi.SE> wrote:
A few days ago a "TELL 1.13 SHOW KNOWN NODES" from 42.42 BET:: was very =
slow. It's probably 4 times faster now. I don't know if I'm passing =
through your part of the net to get to Johnny.
Seems like you are;
NCP>tell mim show node bet
20:55:46 NCP
Request # 114 Accepted
NCP>
20:55:47 NCP
Request # 114; Show Node Summary Completed
Node State Active Delay Circuit Next node
links
42.42 (BET) 0 4 59.11 (DIMMA)
I think we can even make this better...
Set up a (cisco) tunnel to 130.238.19.60 (and tell me your side IP
address).
Set the metric you have on the old tunnel(s) to me to cost 20.
Set the cost for the new tunnel to 10.
--P
---
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Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> writes:
On 01/08/2013 02:55 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >>> I've always wondered
about VMS sources: how they are actually distributed >>> today and how
much space they take? Is a CD-ROM enough for everything? And in >>>
which format are they? Just simple text files in a bunch of directories
or >>> there is something fancier such as some cross references and
indexes? >> >> They used to make source *listings* available on fiche;
I have several >> sets of those. It's a stack of fiche maybe 3-4"
thick. > > How old are these "listings"?
I haven't looked at them in years, but I think I have at least 5.1 and
5.2, possibly 4.7.
But who needs the source listings when you've got access to the poor-man's
microfiche?
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
A few days ago a "TELL 1.13 SHOW KNOWN NODES" from 42.42 BET:: was very =
slow. It's probably 4 times faster now. I don't know if I'm passing =
through your part of the net to get to Johnny.
Seems like you are;
NCP>tell mim show node bet
20:55:46 NCP
Request # 114 Accepted
NCP>
20:55:47 NCP
Request # 114; Show Node Summary Completed
Node State Active Delay Circuit Next node
links
42.42 (BET) 0 4 59.11 (DIMMA)
I think we can even make this better...
Set up a (cisco) tunnel to 130.238.19.60 (and tell me your side IP
address).
Set the metric you have on the old tunnel(s) to me to cost 20.
Set the cost for the new tunnel to 10.
--P
On 01/08/2013 02:55 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
I've always wondered about VMS sources: how they are actually distributed
today and how much space they take? Is a CD-ROM enough for everything? And in
which format are they? Just simple text files in a bunch of directories or
there is something fancier such as some cross references and indexes?
They used to make source *listings* available on fiche; I have several
sets of those. It's a stack of fiche maybe 3-4" thick.
How old are these "listings"?
I haven't looked at them in years, but I think I have at least 5.1 and
5.2, possibly 4.7.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 01/08/2013 08:48 PM, Peter Lothberg wrote:
Dave, do you se and improvement/degradation of the
cisco-tunnel-to-johhny-bridged-ethernet part of Hecnet?
Hi Peter! I thought things seemed a bit snappier when I did a few
things yesterday, but I didn't take any measurements, and figured it was
just a low-traffic period. Why do you ask?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 01/08/2013 02:51 PM, Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:
You need to first sign and pay for a source listings license agreement.
Back many years ago, IIRC, it was about $2K. There's then maintenance
that must be paid yearly to get the listings CDs/DVDs when produced.
I am nothing short of astonished that it was that cheap!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 8 Jan 2013, at 14:45, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 01/08/2013 02:38 PM, G. wrote:
I've always wondered about VMS sources: how they are actually distributed
today and how much space they take? Is a CD-ROM enough for everything? And in
which format are they? Just simple text files in a bunch of directories or
there is something fancier such as some cross references and indexes?
They used to make source *listings* available on fiche; I have several
sets of those. It's a stack of fiche maybe 3-4" thick.
How old are these "listings"?
But the main question is: where can they be obtained? Is HP still selling them
and how much they would cost? A figure with too many zeroes, right? :/
For a currently-developed high-end OS for high-end hardware in the
application space in which VMS is typically used, yes, lots of zeros.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
