On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:53:50 -0500
Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
[...snip...]
That said, by the time PL/1 came on the scene (late 1960s/early
1970s), it was pretty much de rigro that that a compiler was written
in it self to demonstrate the power of the language. And the boot
strap compiler was one a one shot thing and tossed aside as soon as a
working compiler staggered to its feet (think Ken Thompson's Turing
Award lecture on security). For instance BLISS was said to have been
boot strapped as a set of TECO macro's on the 10 - Eklund says he
According to Ron Brender the BLISS-10 compiler was originally
written in a BLISS pseudo-code which has then hand-translated into
assembly, which then bootstrapped the compiler.
I do know that TECO macros were initially used to pre-process
BLISS-10 structure definitions and expand them.
does not remember, but he did tell me once that it might have been so
when I asked him [While I was there, I was not part of that thread -
where as Dave was one of Wulf's grad students at CMU when Bill
designed and implemented BLISS -- Eklund is still hacking on the
Intel FTN Compiler a few days a week BTW].
The Multics, Prime et al PL/1 were written in PL/1 (by Frieberghouse)
- which is why Culter went there to get the front end when he created
his company. Again, I do not know how it was boot strapped. It's
possible PL/1 for Multics was bootstrapped from GECOS and in
something like BCPL - anyone know? Also, there were a number of
firms at the time in the Boston area doing compilers.
PL/I on Multics went through several iterations. Before full PL/I
there was EPL, a cut down PL/I that was missing a lot of I/O features.
El 16/01/2013, a les 10:02, Mark Wickens <mark at wickensonline.co.uk> va escriure:
I was thinking of doing this as a retrochallenge project - it's really cool and stops me from thinking about purchasing a real PDP!
Well, I lack the mechanics and electronics tinkering skills I'd need to build a "real" console... So don't expect anything similar to an 11/70 panel soon ;)
(And at the moment it is strictly output only, but I' doing some experiments to add input via switches and buttons)
On 16/01/2013 01:29, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote:
If someone is interested, I have published the source code and the basic circuitry I have been using. I have also built a virtual console for the virtual pdp-11. Or if you like it more, a simulation of the simulated console for the simulated PDP-11.
http://ancientbits.blogspot.com.es/2013/01/blinkenlights-not-so-difficult-a…
Jordi Guillaumes i Pons
jg at jordi.guillaumes.name
HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES
PS: This mail _could_ end being duplicated... I apologize for it
I was thinking of doing this as a retrochallenge project - it's really cool and stops me from thinking about purchasing a real PDP!
which is good - no space *or* money at the moment!
It seems my Raspberry Pi has been busy pushing out bits. You guys must be very patient!
Charged CPU time: 0 00:00:05.65 Elapsed time: 0 09:37:50.07
--Saku
On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 8:25 AM, Saku Set l <setala at gmail.com> wrote:
i have them on another slow link in Finland.
a11pi::[.alpha084]
--Saku
On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 3:49 AM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2013-01-14 23:37, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
TITAAN (44.35) was shutdown just now. If there still is interest for VMS kits or layered products : just tell me and I"l boot it again.
Hans
Hans, don't you have any other machine where you can host the files?
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 11:00 AM, <Paul_Koning at dell.com> wrote:
On Jan 15, 2013, at 8:59 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
If there's a PDP-11 PL/I compiler, join me in benchmarking using some PL/I examples I found on kednos.com ;)
Don't think I've ever seen one. I have F4, F77, Pascal, BASIC+2, COBOL, BCPL, Simula-2, Xlisp, TECO, Forth... Possibly some other things that I can't remember now...
Focal, Coral, Jovial (gag), Mumps. Then from the outside world: Algol-60, Algol-68,...
Right -- Cutler did the original PL/1 compiler for the VAX only. He bought the front end from Frieberhouse (aka LPI aka Liant - aka Ryan-Marfarland). Since it was written in PL/1, Dave had to do the development at MIT on Multics until it was good enough to could self host on the VMS. At the time, there was not market need for an PL/1 for the 11 family and if my memory serves me, I think the development for the 10's and 20s was going away. PL/1 was IBM's big systems language and they were trying to move their code base from FORTRAN and Cobol to it,
As for the PDP-11 C compiler generating poor code, that's because it did not really have too as the feeling was that the Ritchie compiler for UNIX was not that good either. Any C compiler of the time was viewed as just needed to work properly, self host and generate correct code.
It would be interesting to see how GCC does with whetstone.c.
paul
Hello!
What's wrong with Jovial? We've built a great air traffic control
system around it. Too bad the hardware is old enough to vote.
And none of it is certifiable for hobbyists.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 05:56:33PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote:
That it would... Anyone have GCC setup to generate something that can
be linked under RSX?
That's a tall order (adding .OBJ to binutils?) ... and lately I think GCC for
PDP-11s is pretty badly broken. I built the (then-)latest GCC to cross-compile
for PDP-11s a few weeks ago (working on porting Conticki) and it's pretty
broken -- stack frames get all tangled up on any function with >2 locals.
Turning off frame pointers or enabling optimization just makes it worse.
I did a temporary hack which got it generating seemingly correct (but *awful*)
code, but I didn't understand how it worked well enough to really fix it. It
seems like it's trying to keep track of modifications to SP but apparently on
*any* modification it assumes that it's lost track of the top of the stack
(even if the modification was push and then pop, i.e. no net change) and tries
to dig its way out with the frame pointer (which it gets off by a word).
But anyway ... I would think a GAS-to-MACRO translator wouldn't be too
difficult to write, since GCC doesn't depend too heavily on GASsisms.
John Wilson
D Bit
El 15/01/2013, a les 17:56, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> va escriure:
That it would... Anyone have GCC setup to generate something that can be linked under RSX?
Can't do that. But I'd bet it can generate code that can be linked under BSD2.11
(BTW the bug I found in the PDP-11 gas assembler is still there)
Jordi Guillaumes i Pons
jg at jordi.guillaumes.name
HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES
El 16/01/2013, a les 2:33, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> va escriure:
Can I then simulate the simulation of the simulation for the simulated simulation or however many levels I just recursed? ;)
Well, you can add an arduino simulator to the stack. But the fabric of the Universe is beginning to shake... :)
Jordi Guillaumes i Pons
jg at jordi.guillaumes.name
HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES
On 15 Jan 2013, at 20:39, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons <jg at jordi.guillaumes.name> wrote:
El 16/01/2013, a les 2:37, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> va escriure:
I had no idea that network still existed I haven't heard any mention of it in ages. A quick wikipedia says it's still quite huge. Hmmmm.
If I'm not wrong its user base is mostly european.
Aaaaah. That would explain it.
Jordi Guillaumes i Pons
jg at jordi.guillaumes.name
HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff!
http://gimme-sympathy.org/ My permanently-a-work-in-progress pet project.
El 16/01/2013, a les 2:37, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> va escriure:
I had no idea that network still existed I haven't heard any mention of it in ages. A quick wikipedia says it's still quite huge. Hmmmm.
If I'm not wrong its user base is mostly european.
Jordi Guillaumes i Pons
jg at jordi.guillaumes.name
HECnet: BITXOV::JGUILLAUMES
