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PDP-10s, was Re: [HECnet] NT 4 on AlphaServer es40

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 02/11/2013 07:26 PM, Gregg Levine wrote: The PDP-10 was an interesting system and one lived for a long time in the basement of an MIT building during the middle 90s. I could also say that everything that's going on is Dave's fault, but that would be too easy. I'm blaming it on Sampsa ignoring the tribble near him. That is most certainly NOT my fault; in fact there are two PDP-10s here that will be up and running (and on HECnet!) if someone can hook me up with some MASSBUS drives. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

12 years, 8 months

NT 4 on AlphaServer es40

by b4＠gewt.net

On 11 Feb 2013, at 19:26, Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote: On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: On 2013-02-11 22:43, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: On Feb 11, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Mark Benson wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 21:02, Dave McGuire wrote: You know DEC, they loved supporting legacy products almost into oblivion. Yes, for GOOD products As much as I'd like to agree, it didn't necessarily work that way round. It was more a case of 'is someone important still using this? Then we best not ditch them or it'll look awfully bad... and they'll go and buy an IBM/DataGeneral/etc.' :) Not even that. For example, shortly after the 11/780 was announced, there was a definite (and, as I recall, explicitly stated) push to drop all PDP-11 support ASAP. For that matter, when IAS was announced, RSTS customers were told that IAS was the future and they should move there right away. Not long after that, IAS was recognized for the boat anchor it was, and it remained an obscure niche product. So DEC definitely had a history of angering customers by attempting to drop support for products that were very much alive and in some cases superior to the alleged replacement. Of course, they sometimes did get it right, as in the example of TRAX... :-) Is this the time I should mention the PDP-10? Talk about making customers angry... :-) Speaking of IAS, it really looks cool when reading specs, but I've never touched it, and another aspect of those specs is that it looks like it would be rather slow... Never seen TRAX in real life either, btw. What was so good about it? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Hello! What happened to Mentec and the PDP-11 support after DEC made the silly decision to spin the division off? And yes you should. The PDP-10 was an interesting system and one lived for a long time in the basement of an MIT building during the middle 90s. You've just reminded me that I want a TOAD-1. ;) I could also say that everything that's going on is Dave's fault, but that would be too easy. I'm blaming it on Sampsa ignoring the tribble near him. Now i've been reminded of that episode of Space Mall errr Deep Space 9 where they green screened the characters in to that TOS episode... ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." Does anyone happen to have a Tru64 license kit? I could use it for my ES40. ;)

12 years, 8 months

NT 4 on AlphaServer es40

by gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com

On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: On 2013-02-11 22:43, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: On Feb 11, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Mark Benson wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 21:02, Dave McGuire wrote: You know DEC, they loved supporting legacy products almost into oblivion. Yes, for GOOD products As much as I'd like to agree, it didn't necessarily work that way round. It was more a case of 'is someone important still using this? Then we best not ditch them or it'll look awfully bad... and they'll go and buy an IBM/DataGeneral/etc.' :) Not even that. For example, shortly after the 11/780 was announced, there was a definite (and, as I recall, explicitly stated) push to drop all PDP-11 support ASAP. For that matter, when IAS was announced, RSTS customers were told that IAS was the future and they should move there right away. Not long after that, IAS was recognized for the boat anchor it was, and it remained an obscure niche product. So DEC definitely had a history of angering customers by attempting to drop support for products that were very much alive and in some cases superior to the alleged replacement. Of course, they sometimes did get it right, as in the example of TRAX... :-) Is this the time I should mention the PDP-10? Talk about making customers angry... :-) Speaking of IAS, it really looks cool when reading specs, but I've never touched it, and another aspect of those specs is that it looks like it would be rather slow... Never seen TRAX in real life either, btw. What was so good about it? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol Hello! What happened to Mentec and the PDP-11 support after DEC made the silly decision to spin the division off? And yes you should. The PDP-10 was an interesting system and one lived for a long time in the basement of an MIT building during the middle 90s. I could also say that everything that's going on is Dave's fault, but that would be too easy. I'm blaming it on Sampsa ignoring the tribble near him. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

12 years, 8 months

NT 4 on AlphaServer es40

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-02-11 23:33, Mark Benson wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 21:41, Dave McGuire wrote: That I won't argue with. That reminds me, I need to get my PDP-11 emulation back up and running. I'm actually missing using RSX-11 M+ (there's something wrong with me, I swear. It's Johnny's fault! :P ). EVERYTHING is Johnny's fault. ;) Bring up that PDP-11! (even if it's not real iron!) Eh, Ma ana. It takes me over an hour to do a fresh SYSGEN and NETGEN and I haven't done it in ages so I'll be out of practice. On an emulator? I takes me a little over an hour to do a SYSGEN on a real 11/93. I do want to get it running again though and delve a little deeper into RSX-11 :) If you ever do, feel free to ask questions. I think I'm getting close to figuring out all the weird stuff of the internals at this point... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

12 years, 8 months

NT 4 on AlphaServer es40

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-02-11 22:44, Ian McLaughlin wrote: On 2013-02-11, at 1:41 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: EVERYTHING is Johnny's fault. ;) Bring up that PDP-11! (even if it's not real iron!) *That* explains the shipping delay on my newly acquired ES40. It was meant to be here on Friday, but looks like it's now going to be tomorrow. Too modern for me. :-) You can blame me for one still running VAX-8650, but anything newer than that, and I think I'm innocent. PDP-11s on the other hand... If anyone have a 11 with a VSV21 and running RSX, I wrote a little cute hack a couple of weeks ago to have a nice large clock on the display. (Maybe I should make a short film of that...) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

12 years, 8 months

NT 4 on AlphaServer es40

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-02-11 22:43, Paul_Koning at Dell.com wrote: On Feb 11, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Mark Benson wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 21:02, Dave McGuire wrote: You know DEC, they loved supporting legacy products almost into oblivion. Yes, for GOOD products As much as I'd like to agree, it didn't necessarily work that way round. It was more a case of 'is someone important still using this? Then we best not ditch them or it'll look awfully bad... and they'll go and buy an IBM/DataGeneral/etc.' :) Not even that. For example, shortly after the 11/780 was announced, there was a definite (and, as I recall, explicitly stated) push to drop all PDP-11 support ASAP. For that matter, when IAS was announced, RSTS customers were told that IAS was the future and they should move there right away. Not long after that, IAS was recognized for the boat anchor it was, and it remained an obscure niche product. So DEC definitely had a history of angering customers by attempting to drop support for products that were very much alive and in some cases superior to the alleged replacement. Of course, they sometimes did get it right, as in the example of TRAX... :-) Is this the time I should mention the PDP-10? Talk about making customers angry... :-) Speaking of IAS, it really looks cool when reading specs, but I've never touched it, and another aspect of those specs is that it looks like it would be rather slow... Never seen TRAX in real life either, btw. What was so good about it? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

12 years, 8 months

NT 4 on AlphaServer es40

by bqt＠softjar.se

On 2013-02-11 22:38, Mark Benson wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 21:02, Dave McGuire wrote: You know DEC, they loved supporting legacy products almost into oblivion. Yes, for GOOD products As much as I'd like to agree, it didn't necessarily work that way round. It was more a case of 'is someone important still using this? Then we best not ditch them or it'll look awfully bad... and they'll go and buy an IBM/DataGeneral/etc.' :) I'd say it is a bit of both, and the latter sometimes comes as an effect of the former. Heck, I still know lots of places that run PDP-11 in production. Even some places with real hardware, although several are now on emulators. I mean, when did they stop officially supporting PDP themselves? Supporting I don't know, but the last PDP-11 to roll off the assembly line did so on 9/30/1996. (see "good products" above) That I won't argue with. That reminds me, I need to get my PDP-11 emulation back up and running. I'm actually missing using RSX-11 M+ (there's something wrong with me, I swear. It's Johnny's fault! :P ). I'm totally innocent... :-) It's just that RSX is so much fun. (Most of my crashing with the new TCP/IP have so far been on my very experimental JOCKE, so MIM have been spared, even though it is running the new code. Still some bug in there, which cause some timer to trigger when it shouldn't...) As some people occasionally do ask about my TCP/IP, the answer is that, yes, I do plan to get some beta testers sooner or later. Let me finish the current rewrite, and then I could start talking about possible tries at distributing something. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

12 years, 8 months

NT 4 on AlphaServer es40

by b4＠gewt.net

On 11 Feb 2013, at 18:42, Brett Bump <bbump at rsts.org> wrote: On Mon, 11 Feb 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 18:17, Brett Bump <bbump at rsts.org> wrote: On Mon, 11 Feb 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 17:35, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 17:33, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 21:41, Dave McGuire wrote: That I won't argue with. That reminds me, I need to get my PDP-11 emulation back up and running. I'm actually missing using RSX-11 M+ (there's something wrong with me, I swear. It's Johnny's fault! :P ). EVERYTHING is Johnny's fault. ;) Bring up that PDP-11! (even if it's not real iron!) I think I've heard that before (Jonny's fault ;-), while I may not necessarily agree with it. Eh, Ma ana. It takes me over an hour to do a fresh SYSGEN and NETGEN and I haven't done it in ages so I'll be out of practice. I do want to get it running again though and delve a little deeper into RSX-11 :) Which reminds me, I need to get my RSX-11M+ VM back up?shame E11 has no x86_64 build?the distro I run doesn't have an i386 compat layer. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. Anyway, back on topic: I think running NT 4 on this is a lost cause. ;) Um...yes, I believe there is a support disk (as I mentioned a week back), I have TSE running on both of my White Elephants (DecServer 3300s). But I would have to agree with Dave, that it is kind of like strapping a couch to your Ferrari (sure it will work, but it is not very practical). This was the first install I did on my 3300s and that was BEFORE Y2k. And both of these machines have been turned off for years. :( No support disk for the ES40 proper, closest I could get was DS20, so i'm currently installing Tru64. That's a rather old install then. ;) Yes, a VERY old install. That was back in them medieval days when a shop that I was working with had the big white Micro$oft experimental CD's that had pretty much all of their development work on. One of them was the TSE install for Alpha...and I was in the process of getting Citrix certified. It was my understanding that the code for TSE "came from Citrix" and was given to Micro$oft to be imbeded in NT4. Megaframe was that nasty stuff that we had been running on NT3.5 so when NT4 came out, it was...umm, I am trying to say better (which it was). But it was still terrible. We had a Compaq server farm that ONLY ran well when you rebooted it every morning. (NT4 had terrible memory leaks) Yup. RDP was based on a Citrix product. ;) A friend of mine HATED TSE he found it to be a kludge with the goofy Citrix stuff tacked on. At least NT 4 TSE has a better UI than 2000. ;) I think i'm going to go try Tru64. -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff! http://gimme-sympathy.org/ My permanently-a-work-in-progress pet project. Yes, this would be a much better approach. ;-) Brett

12 years, 8 months

NT 4 on AlphaServer es40

by bbump＠rsts.org

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 18:17, Brett Bump <bbump at rsts.org> wrote: On Mon, 11 Feb 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 17:35, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 17:33, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 21:41, Dave McGuire wrote: That I won't argue with. That reminds me, I need to get my PDP-11 emulation back up and running. I'm actually missing using RSX-11 M+ (there's something wrong with me, I swear. It's Johnny's fault! :P ). EVERYTHING is Johnny's fault. ;) Bring up that PDP-11! (even if it's not real iron!) I think I've heard that before (Jonny's fault ;-), while I may not necessarily agree with it. Eh, Ma ana. It takes me over an hour to do a fresh SYSGEN and NETGEN and I haven't done it in ages so I'll be out of practice. I do want to get it running again though and delve a little deeper into RSX-11 :) Which reminds me, I need to get my RSX-11M+ VM back up?shame E11 has no x86_64 build?the distro I run doesn't have an i386 compat layer. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. Anyway, back on topic: I think running NT 4 on this is a lost cause. ;) Um...yes, I believe there is a support disk (as I mentioned a week back), I have TSE running on both of my White Elephants (DecServer 3300s). But I would have to agree with Dave, that it is kind of like strapping a couch to your Ferrari (sure it will work, but it is not very practical). This was the first install I did on my 3300s and that was BEFORE Y2k. And both of these machines have been turned off for years. :( No support disk for the ES40 proper, closest I could get was DS20, so i'm currently installing Tru64. That's a rather old install then. ;) Yes, a VERY old install. That was back in them medieval days when a shop that I was working with had the big white Micro$oft experimental CD's that had pretty much all of their development work on. One of them was the TSE install for Alpha...and I was in the process of getting Citrix certified. It was my understanding that the code for TSE "came from Citrix" and was given to Micro$oft to be imbeded in NT4. Megaframe was that nasty stuff that we had been running on NT3.5 so when NT4 came out, it was...umm, I am trying to say better (which it was). But it was still terrible. We had a Compaq server farm that ONLY ran well when you rebooted it every morning. (NT4 had terrible memory leaks) I think i'm going to go try Tru64. -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff! http://gimme-sympathy.org/ My permanently-a-work-in-progress pet project. Yes, this would be a much better approach. ;-) Brett

12 years, 8 months

NT 4 on AlphaServer es40

by b4＠gewt.net

On 11 Feb 2013, at 18:17, Brett Bump <bbump at rsts.org> wrote: On Mon, 11 Feb 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 17:35, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 17:33, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote: On 11 Feb 2013, at 21:41, Dave McGuire wrote: That I won't argue with. That reminds me, I need to get my PDP-11 emulation back up and running. I'm actually missing using RSX-11 M+ (there's something wrong with me, I swear. It's Johnny's fault! :P ). EVERYTHING is Johnny's fault. ;) Bring up that PDP-11! (even if it's not real iron!) I think I've heard that before (Jonny's fault ;-), while I may not necessarily agree with it. Eh, Ma ana. It takes me over an hour to do a fresh SYSGEN and NETGEN and I haven't done it in ages so I'll be out of practice. I do want to get it running again though and delve a little deeper into RSX-11 :) Which reminds me, I need to get my RSX-11M+ VM back up?shame E11 has no x86_64 build?the distro I run doesn't have an i386 compat layer. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. Anyway, back on topic: I think running NT 4 on this is a lost cause. ;) Um...yes, I believe there is a support disk (as I mentioned a week back), I have TSE running on both of my White Elephants (DecServer 3300s). But I would have to agree with Dave, that it is kind of like strapping a couch to your Ferrari (sure it will work, but it is not very practical). This was the first install I did on my 3300s and that was BEFORE Y2k. And both of these machines have been turned off for years. :( No support disk for the ES40 proper, closest I could get was DS20, so i'm currently installing Tru64. That's a rather old install then. ;) I think i'm going to go try Tru64. -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff! http://gimme-sympathy.org/ My permanently-a-work-in-progress pet project. Yes, this would be a much better approach. ;-) Brett

12 years, 8 months

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