BGP is a distance-vector protocol, DECnet/ISIS is link state,
completely different set of tools.
Agreed. However, DECNET does have a metric - cost - which we can manipulate in any way we want. We can use it as a proxy for distance.
If my AS is peering with your AS, I can send you "deaggregated routes
with comunity "do not export" and attach my IGP metrics (and policy)
and send that to you with MED.
In BGP between ASes for econimical reasons you do closest exit to the
peer, so traffic is assumetric, you can listen to MED but if both
sides does it we might be back to assymetric routes.
So in "real world" buisiness polcy is implemented with BGP.
In the real world, I want to get traffic to you off my network as soon as possible.
With DECnet routing or ISIS L1/L2 you have much less of a tols, and
you can not filter prefixes.
The only thing I was trying to do was to suggest, if we want to make a
backboone of hubs, they better be in the same area.
I don't think anyone is suggesting a backbone (although that's interesting). All I'm suggesting is a peering point.
I saw a bunch of messages in this theread that I think are related to
MTU, the router-tunnel interface has to match the path MTU or things
like routing vectors for high node-numbers will be truncated..
I though that DECnet's maximum packet size was 576? As long as the path MTU is bigger than this, it shouldn't mangle the DECnet packets, should it?
Ian
-p
Ian
On 2013-02-23, at 9:05 PM, Peter Lothberg <roll at Stupi.SE> wrote:
Would you care to elaborate? My knowledge of DECnet routing is very =
limited.=3D
=20
It;s no different than I-ISIS.
=20
Within a area you treat all the boarder gateways (are routers) the
same, so for itgoing packets a node inside the area will pick it's
closest area router with external connectivity to senda outgoing
packet through.=20
=20
Another area will pick ANY router it think is usefulle for the
destination area, regardless of the internal topology of that area..=20=
=20
Bottom line:
=20
I have area 59 in Stockholm, Uppsala, Reston VA, and Sunnnyvave CA, if
we want to have a usefull "global core" it needs to be in the same
area....=20
=20
-P
=20
=20
=20
=20
-brian
=20
On Feb 23, 2013, at 19:30, Peter Lothberg <roll at Stupi.SE> wrote:
=20
On 02/23/2013 07:21 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
I've managed to coax my provider in to giving me another IP
(apparently 5 IPs come with my plan=3D05), so I can get a virtual =
cisco
up on my VPS (in Canada).
=3D20
Brian, would you like to get this all joined in to the mesh? Is a =
NA
hub still needed or has someone else offered one? (This'd be on an
unmetered gigE pipe)
=3D20
I think running a hub on an emulated router maybe isn't the best =
idea.
(sorry to say so)
=3D20
We also have to take in to account how to get some kind of =
resonalble
routing, as the inside of an area is not exchanged with other areas.
=3D20
-P
=20
=20
=20
=20
---
Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam =
here: =
http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=3DE741A17A7E3F11=
E29554144693ED0201
--Apple-Mail=_134C91BE-5BC2-4ABC-B266-7FBB64390094
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=us-ascii
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
">Peter,<div><br></div><div>If I peered with your three locations, and =
set the cost of each link to be proportional to the distance (or at =
least speed/latency), then my network would prefer the link with the =
lowest cost, but still have the other links as redundant in the case of =
a link failure.</div><div><br></div><div>The routing problems are =
similar to those with BGP. If I'm routing to your AS number, I'm =
going to want to hand it over to the geographically closest point, and =
assume your network is better at connecting all of it's internal parts. =
BGP AS's don't expose the internal structure of the network =
either.</div><div><br></div><div>Ian</div><div><br><div><div>On =
2013-02-23, at 9:05 PM, Peter Lothberg <<a =
href=3D"mailto:roll at Stupi.SE">roll at Stupi.SE</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Would you care to elaborate? My knowledge of DECnet =
routing is very limited.=3D<br></blockquote><br>It;s no different than =
I-ISIS.<br><br>Within a area you treat all the boarder gateways (are =
routers) the<br>same, so for itgoing packets a node inside the area will =
pick it's<br>closest area router with external connectivity to senda =
outgoing<br>packet through. <br><br>Another area will pick ANY router it =
think is usefulle for the<br>destination area, regardless of the =
internal topology of that area.. <br><br>Bottom line:<br><br>I have area =
59 in Stockholm, Uppsala, Reston VA, and Sunnnyvave CA, if<br>we want to =
have a usefull "global core" it needs to be in the same<br>area.... =
<br><br>-P<br><br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><br><br>-brian<br><br>On =
Feb 23, 2013, at 19:30, Peter Lothberg <<a =
href=3D"mailto:roll at Stupi.SE">roll at Stupi.SE</a>> =
wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">On =
02/23/2013 07:21 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:<br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">I've managed to coax my provider in to giving me another =
IP<br>(apparently 5 IPs come with my plan=3D05), so I can get a virtual =
cisco<br>up on my VPS (in Canada).<br>=3D20<br>Brian, would you like to =
get this all joined in to the mesh? Is a NA<br>hub still needed or =
has someone else offered one? (This'd be on an<br>unmetered gigE =
pipe)<br></blockquote>=3D20<br> I think running a hub on an emulated =
router maybe isn't the best idea.<br>(sorry to say =
so)<br></blockquote>=3D20<br>We also have to take in to account how to =
get some kind of resonalble<br>routing, as the inside of an area is not =
exchanged with other =
areas.<br>=3D20<br>-P<br></blockquote><br></blockquote><br><br><br>---<br>=
Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam =
here: <a =
href=3D"http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=3DE741A1=
7A7E3F11E29554144693ED0201">http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.p=
l?messageid=3DE741A17A7E3F11E29554144693ED0201</a><br></blockquote></div><=
br></div></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail=_134C91BE-5BC2-4ABC-B266-7FBB64390094--
---
Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here: http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=13F007A27E4A11E2B…
Peter,
If I peered with your three locations, and set the cost of each link to =
be proportional to the distance (or at least speed/latency), then my =
network would prefer the link with the lowest cost, but still have the =
other links as redundant in the case of a link failure.
You knew nothing about the internal topology of my as, ad you are
assuming my BW is better than your BW.
The routing problems are similar to those with BGP. If I'm routing to =
your AS number, I'm going to want to hand it over to the geographically =
closest point, and assume your network is better at connecting all of =
it's internal parts. BGP AS's don't expose the internal structure of =
the network either.
BGP is a distance-vector protocol, DECnet/ISIS is link state,
completely different set of tools.
If my AS is peering with your AS, I can send you "deaggregated routes
with comunity "do not export" and attach my IGP metrics (and policy)
and send that to you with MED.
In BGP between ASes for econimical reasons you do closest exit to the
peer, so traffic is assumetric, you can listen to MED but if both
sides does it we might be back to assymetric routes.
So in "real world" buisiness polcy is implemented with BGP.
With DECnet routing or ISIS L1/L2 you have much less of a tols, and
you can not filter prefixes.
The only thing I was trying to do was to suggest, if we want to make a
backboone of hubs, they better be in the same area.
I saw a bunch of messages in this theread that I think are related to
MTU, the router-tunnel interface has to match the path MTU or things
like routing vectors for high node-numbers will be truncated..
-p
Ian
On 2013-02-23, at 9:05 PM, Peter Lothberg <roll at Stupi.SE> wrote:
Would you care to elaborate? My knowledge of DECnet routing is very =
limited.=3D
=20
It;s no different than I-ISIS.
=20
Within a area you treat all the boarder gateways (are routers) the
same, so for itgoing packets a node inside the area will pick it's
closest area router with external connectivity to senda outgoing
packet through.=20
=20
Another area will pick ANY router it think is usefulle for the
destination area, regardless of the internal topology of that area..=20=
=20
Bottom line:
=20
I have area 59 in Stockholm, Uppsala, Reston VA, and Sunnnyvave CA, if
we want to have a usefull "global core" it needs to be in the same
area....=20
=20
-P
=20
=20
=20
=20
-brian
=20
On Feb 23, 2013, at 19:30, Peter Lothberg <roll at Stupi.SE> wrote:
=20
On 02/23/2013 07:21 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
I've managed to coax my provider in to giving me another IP
(apparently 5 IPs come with my plan=3D05), so I can get a virtual =
cisco
up on my VPS (in Canada).
=3D20
Brian, would you like to get this all joined in to the mesh? Is a =
NA
hub still needed or has someone else offered one? (This'd be on an
unmetered gigE pipe)
=3D20
I think running a hub on an emulated router maybe isn't the best =
idea.
(sorry to say so)
=3D20
We also have to take in to account how to get some kind of =
resonalble
routing, as the inside of an area is not exchanged with other areas.
=3D20
-P
=20
=20
=20
=20
---
Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam =
here: =
http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=3DE741A17A7E3F11=
E29554144693ED0201
--Apple-Mail=_134C91BE-5BC2-4ABC-B266-7FBB64390094
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=us-ascii
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
">Peter,<div><br></div><div>If I peered with your three locations, and =
set the cost of each link to be proportional to the distance (or at =
least speed/latency), then my network would prefer the link with the =
lowest cost, but still have the other links as redundant in the case of =
a link failure.</div><div><br></div><div>The routing problems are =
similar to those with BGP. If I'm routing to your AS number, I'm =
going to want to hand it over to the geographically closest point, and =
assume your network is better at connecting all of it's internal parts. =
BGP AS's don't expose the internal structure of the network =
either.</div><div><br></div><div>Ian</div><div><br><div><div>On =
2013-02-23, at 9:05 PM, Peter Lothberg <<a =
href=3D"mailto:roll at Stupi.SE">roll at Stupi.SE</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Would you care to elaborate? My knowledge of DECnet =
routing is very limited.=3D<br></blockquote><br>It;s no different than =
I-ISIS.<br><br>Within a area you treat all the boarder gateways (are =
routers) the<br>same, so for itgoing packets a node inside the area will =
pick it's<br>closest area router with external connectivity to senda =
outgoing<br>packet through. <br><br>Another area will pick ANY router it =
think is usefulle for the<br>destination area, regardless of the =
internal topology of that area.. <br><br>Bottom line:<br><br>I have area =
59 in Stockholm, Uppsala, Reston VA, and Sunnnyvave CA, if<br>we want to =
have a usefull "global core" it needs to be in the same<br>area.... =
<br><br>-P<br><br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><br><br>-brian<br><br>On =
Feb 23, 2013, at 19:30, Peter Lothberg <<a =
href=3D"mailto:roll at Stupi.SE">roll at Stupi.SE</a>> =
wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">On =
02/23/2013 07:21 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:<br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">I've managed to coax my provider in to giving me another =
IP<br>(apparently 5 IPs come with my plan=3D05), so I can get a virtual =
cisco<br>up on my VPS (in Canada).<br>=3D20<br>Brian, would you like to =
get this all joined in to the mesh? Is a NA<br>hub still needed or =
has someone else offered one? (This'd be on an<br>unmetered gigE =
pipe)<br></blockquote>=3D20<br> I think running a hub on an emulated =
router maybe isn't the best idea.<br>(sorry to say =
so)<br></blockquote>=3D20<br>We also have to take in to account how to =
get some kind of resonalble<br>routing, as the inside of an area is not =
exchanged with other =
areas.<br>=3D20<br>-P<br></blockquote><br></blockquote><br><br><br>---<br>=
Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam =
here: <a =
href=3D"http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=3DE741A1=
7A7E3F11E29554144693ED0201">http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.p=
l?messageid=3DE741A17A7E3F11E29554144693ED0201</a><br></blockquote></div><=
br></div></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail=_134C91BE-5BC2-4ABC-B266-7FBB64390094--
Peter,
If I peered with your three locations, and set the cost of each link to be proportional to the distance (or at least speed/latency), then my network would prefer the link with the lowest cost, but still have the other links as redundant in the case of a link failure.
The routing problems are similar to those with BGP. If I'm routing to your AS number, I'm going to want to hand it over to the geographically closest point, and assume your network is better at connecting all of it's internal parts. BGP AS's don't expose the internal structure of the network either.
Ian
On 2013-02-23, at 9:05 PM, Peter Lothberg <roll at Stupi.SE> wrote:
Would you care to elaborate? My knowledge of DECnet routing is very limited.=
It;s no different than I-ISIS.
Within a area you treat all the boarder gateways (are routers) the
same, so for itgoing packets a node inside the area will pick it's
closest area router with external connectivity to senda outgoing
packet through.
Another area will pick ANY router it think is usefulle for the
destination area, regardless of the internal topology of that area..
Bottom line:
I have area 59 in Stockholm, Uppsala, Reston VA, and Sunnnyvave CA, if
we want to have a usefull "global core" it needs to be in the same
area....
-P
-brian
On Feb 23, 2013, at 19:30, Peter Lothberg <roll at Stupi.SE> wrote:
On 02/23/2013 07:21 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
I've managed to coax my provider in to giving me another IP
(apparently 5 IPs come with my plan=05), so I can get a virtual cisco
up on my VPS (in Canada).
=20
Brian, would you like to get this all joined in to the mesh? Is a NA
hub still needed or has someone else offered one? (This'd be on an
unmetered gigE pipe)
=20
I think running a hub on an emulated router maybe isn't the best idea.
(sorry to say so)
=20
We also have to take in to account how to get some kind of resonalble
routing, as the inside of an area is not exchanged with other areas.
=20
-P
---
Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here: http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=E741A17A7E3F11E29…
Would you care to elaborate? My knowledge of DECnet routing is very limited.=
It;s no different than I-ISIS.
Within a area you treat all the boarder gateways (are routers) the
same, so for itgoing packets a node inside the area will pick it's
closest area router with external connectivity to senda outgoing
packet through.
Another area will pick ANY router it think is usefulle for the
destination area, regardless of the internal topology of that area..
Bottom line:
I have area 59 in Stockholm, Uppsala, Reston VA, and Sunnnyvave CA, if
we want to have a usefull "global core" it needs to be in the same
area....
-P
-brian
On Feb 23, 2013, at 19:30, Peter Lothberg <roll at Stupi.SE> wrote:
On 02/23/2013 07:21 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
I've managed to coax my provider in to giving me another IP
(apparently 5 IPs come with my plan=05), so I can get a virtual cisco
up on my VPS (in Canada).
=20
Brian, would you like to get this all joined in to the mesh? Is a NA
hub still needed or has someone else offered one? (This'd be on an
unmetered gigE pipe)
=20
I think running a hub on an emulated router maybe isn't the best idea.
(sorry to say so)
=20
We also have to take in to account how to get some kind of resonalble
routing, as the inside of an area is not exchanged with other areas.
=20
-P
I can get you SunOS 4.0.3 and Solaris 2.2.
----- Original Message -----
| From: "Gregg Levine" <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>
| To: hecnet at update.uu.se
| Sent: Saturday, 23 February, 2013 11:36:06 PM
| Subject: Re: [HECnet] Fwd: Virtual Cisco North American hub?
|
| On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:31 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
| >
| >
| > --
| > Cory Smelosky
| > Sent from a mobile device
| >
| > On 23 Feb 2013, at 23:15, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
| > wrote:
| >
| >> On 02/23/2013 07:31 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
| >>> Very well. I'll dedicate the IP to running ancient Solaris or
| >>> something then.;)
| >>
| >> I wasn't aware that there was such a thing as "ancient" Solaris.
| >> ;)
| >
| > Oops, I mean proper SunOS. ;)
| >
| >>
| >> -Dave
| >>
| >> --
| >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
| >> New Kensington, PA
|
| Hello!
| Dave is right for a change. **Sounds of crashing are heard coming
| from
| his area as things are thrown around.**
|
| Versions prior to 5 and 6 are indeed ancient history. They are closer
| to BSD.
|
| And I'd like to find two things from that genre, a VME based SUN
| system and those releases that ran on it.
| -----
| Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
| "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
|
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
http://dev.gimme-sympathy.org Home experiments
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:44 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
I can get you SunOS 4.0.3 and Solaris 2.2.
----- Original Message -----
| From: "Gregg Levine" <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>
| To: hecnet at update.uu.se
| Sent: Saturday, 23 February, 2013 11:36:06 PM
| Subject: Re: [HECnet] Fwd: Virtual Cisco North American hub?
|
| On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:31 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
| >
| >
| > --
| > Cory Smelosky
| > Sent from a mobile device
| >
| > On 23 Feb 2013, at 23:15, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
| > wrote:
| >
| >> On 02/23/2013 07:31 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
| >>> Very well. I'll dedicate the IP to running ancient Solaris or
| >>> something then.;)
| >>
| >> I wasn't aware that there was such a thing as "ancient" Solaris.
| >> ;)
| >
| > Oops, I mean proper SunOS. ;)
| >
| >>
| >> -Dave
| >>
| >> --
| >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
| >> New Kensington, PA
|
| Hello!
| Dave is right for a change. **Sounds of crashing are heard coming
| from
| his area as things are thrown around.**
|
| Versions prior to 5 and 6 are indeed ancient history. They are closer
| to BSD.
|
| And I'd like to find two things from that genre, a VME based SUN
| system and those releases that ran on it.
| -----
| Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
| "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
|
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
http://dev.gimme-sympathy.org Home experiments
Hello!
It is a thought. A good one at that. One problem or crisis at a time though.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On 02/23/2013 11:44 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
I can get you SunOS 4.0.3 and Solaris 2.2.
...and I can get you the source code. =)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:40 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 02/23/2013 11:36 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:
Dave is right for a change. **Sounds of crashing are heard coming from
his area as things are thrown around.**
Versions prior to 5 and 6 are indeed ancient history. They are closer to BSD.
Indeed, they *are* BSD. Pre-SysV SunOS was based on BSD4.1C.
And I'd like to find two things from that genre, a VME based SUN
system and those releases that ran on it.
I'm keeping my VME Suns, but I can help you with the software.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Hello!
It is a thought. This does not explain why one of them has six legs
and is trying walk out your doors to hitchhike its way here.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On 02/23/2013 11:36 PM, Gregg Levine wrote:
Dave is right for a change. **Sounds of crashing are heard coming from
his area as things are thrown around.**
Versions prior to 5 and 6 are indeed ancient history. They are closer to BSD.
Indeed, they *are* BSD. Pre-SysV SunOS was based on BSD4.1C.
And I'd like to find two things from that genre, a VME based SUN
system and those releases that ran on it.
I'm keeping my VME Suns, but I can help you with the software.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 11:31 PM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
--
Cory Smelosky
Sent from a mobile device
On 23 Feb 2013, at 23:15, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 02/23/2013 07:31 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Very well. I'll dedicate the IP to running ancient Solaris or something then.;)
I wasn't aware that there was such a thing as "ancient" Solaris. ;)
Oops, I mean proper SunOS. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Hello!
Dave is right for a change. **Sounds of crashing are heard coming from
his area as things are thrown around.**
Versions prior to 5 and 6 are indeed ancient history. They are closer to BSD.
And I'd like to find two things from that genre, a VME based SUN
system and those releases that ran on it.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
