On 2011-07-17 21.16, Peter Lothberg wrote:
ANF10!
DISCO DUCK
DISCO FEVER
ANF10 is a fond memory... Do I remember right that it was based on PDP-8
machines acting as connection points? Did they talk serial lines between
each other?
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Johnny
The PDP8 thing is a DN92, it has a sync interface and a bunch of
terminal lines and a lineprinter interface. It was supposed to talk to
a DS10, sync interface on PDP10 IO bus.
ANF10 is talked by the TOPS10 hosts over DTE (to FE PDP11 on KL), DL10
(DEC10 DMA/IObus to Unibus) and NIA-Ethernet (we got a ether_type for
it..)
There is ANF10 code for PDP11 that run on 40's or 34's.
Ah. I thought the DN92 was somehow related to ANF10.
Did ever anything but TOPS-10 support ANF10?
(Whatever code ran on the FE RSX system don't count... :) )
The PDP11 code can talk DDCMP over ASYNC or SYNC interfaces, DQ11,
DMR11, DMC11. So you can do Wan things. In Sweden we had DEC10's in
Stockholm and Linkoping networked with a 9.6K sync link.
The DEC2020 talks DDCP with a DUP11 and a KMC (I think it was KMC,
unibus card with microdode that basically did DDCMP.)
Yeah, I seem to remember that the KMC was the card with DDCMP on board.
Anf-10 has link-state routing like OSPF/ISIS but only one area.
I was very ignorant at the time I played with this stuff. Exactly what could you do over ANF10? I remember connecting between machines (interactive terminal sessions), but were there file transfer protocols, or network based filesystems? Other features?
Hello!
If that's the case, then how would these machines communicate over
longer distances? For that matter, before Ethernet, and even the
current methods of fast connections we have now, would all of you
believe that we did use either dial-up on leased lines?
Mentioned in Cliff Stoll's book, "Cuckoo's Egg" is how his university
was connected to the Internet.
It depends on what timeframe, the IMP's had 9.6K and later 56K links
between them. There was a pararell and a serial host interface
named 1822, and later (some bozo) did X.25 as access host-imp.
So they either had a IMP at the University, or a 1822 serial link to
an IMP.
-Dept of useless knowledge.. -P
...and Peter don't need to "believe", since he was there and involved... :-)
I remember sitting at the Royal Institute of Technology in the beginning of the 80s, and connecting to MIT to run ITS on their machines. That involved an IMP, if I remember right. And it worked fine, although the speed was probably not impressive by todays standards. But back then you were used to 300 bps modems anyway, so this was no worse.
Johnny
On 2011-07-17 21.06, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
Decnet 3 is compatible with phase 4. DEC was great with upward compatibility.
Yes. I was more thinking of how much a Phase III router could route in a Phsae IV network. I know I've seen the documentation for this somewhere, at some point. I just can't remember the details on exactly how compatible that detail was. Phase III endnodes worked well in Phase IV.
I thought ethernet (10 Mb/s, thickwire) ws from 1977, VMS is about the same age.
The Ethernet as we know and use it (really ethernet II) was published in 1982. The first version, which looked pretty much the same, but which allocated other protocol numbers (before low numbers became reserved for 802.n) was published in 1980. DECnet phase IV came around somewhere around 1982 or 1983 unless my memory fails me. (After Ethernet II, but pretty soon after, I believe). It might have been something like 1984 as well, though.
Phase III was pretty new, if it had even been introduced by 1977.
(Ah, looking at wikipedia, Phase III didn't arrive until 1980, while phase IV was indeed 1982).
Johnny
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Johnny Billquist<bqt at softjar.se>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 20:48:42
To:<hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet et al
On 2011-07-17 20.35, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
DECnet phase 4 is about as old as ethernet and VMS. Ethernet was the main driving force for phase 4 owing to the large number of adjacent nodes and the sheer number.
Not really. Phase IV is about as old as ethernet, yes. VMS is older...
Phase 3 does not have areas and only recognizes 255 hosts max. It did have circuit routing (of course)
Yes. About the same thing as L1 routing. I think it might even be
partially compatible, within the restrictions on the number of nodes...
Johnny
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg Levine<gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:26:07
To:<hecnet at update.uu.se>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet et al
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Bob Armstrong<bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
A bridge (hw) maintains a list of mac addresses it sees at each port.
FWIW, that's a "switch" at least in the common usage of the word over
here.
Bob
Hello!
I agree! Now first things first. When did DECNET first appear? And
more importantly, based on what systems and using what means to
connect each system.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
ANF10!
DISCO DUCK
DISCO FEVER
ANF10 is a fond memory... Do I remember right that it was based on PDP-8
machines acting as connection points? Did they talk serial lines between
each other?
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Johnny
The PDP8 thing is a DN92, it has a sync interface and a bunch of
terminal lines and a lineprinter interface. It was supposed to talk to
a DS10, sync interface on PDP10 IO bus.
ANF10 is talked by the TOPS10 hosts over DTE (to FE PDP11 on KL), DL10
(DEC10 DMA/IObus to Unibus) and NIA-Ethernet (we got a ether_type for
it..)
There is ANF10 code for PDP11 that run on 40's or 34's.
The PDP11 code can talk DDCMP over ASYNC or SYNC interfaces, DQ11,
DMR11, DMC11. So you can do Wan things. In Sweden we had DEC10's in
Stockholm and Linkoping networked with a 9.6K sync link.
The DEC2020 talks DDCP with a DUP11 and a KMC (I think it was KMC,
unibus card with microdode that basically did DDCMP.)
Anf-10 has link-state routing like OSPF/ISIS but only one area.
THere was code to do ANF10 over X.25, but it was to expensive to use
on a public x.25 netowork...
Hello!
If that's the case, then how would these machines communicate over
longer distances? For that matter, before Ethernet, and even the
current methods of fast connections we have now, would all of you
believe that we did use either dial-up on leased lines?
Mentioned in Cliff Stoll's book, "Cuckoo's Egg" is how his university
was connected to the Internet.
It depends on what timeframe, the IMP's had 9.6K and later 56K links
between them. There was a pararell and a serial host interface
named 1822, and later (some bozo) did X.25 as access host-imp.
So they either had a IMP at the University, or a 1822 serial link to
an IMP.
-Dept of useless knowledge.. -P
Decnet 3 is compatible with phase 4. DEC was great with upward compatibility.
I thought ethernet (10 Mb/s, thickwire) ws from 1977, VMS is about the same age.
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 20:48:42
To: <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet et al
On 2011-07-17 20.35, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
DECnet phase 4 is about as old as ethernet and VMS. Ethernet was the main driving force for phase 4 owing to the large number of adjacent nodes and the sheer number.
Not really. Phase IV is about as old as ethernet, yes. VMS is older...
Phase 3 does not have areas and only recognizes 255 hosts max. It did have circuit routing (of course)
Yes. About the same thing as L1 routing. I think it might even be
partially compatible, within the restrictions on the number of nodes...
Johnny
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg Levine<gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:26:07
To:<hecnet at update.uu.se>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet et al
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Bob Armstrong<bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
A bridge (hw) maintains a list of mac addresses it sees at each port.
FWIW, that's a "switch" at least in the common usage of the word over
here.
Bob
Hello!
I agree! Now first things first. When did DECNET first appear? And
more importantly, based on what systems and using what means to
connect each system.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
On 2011-07-17 20.59, Peter Lothberg wrote:
When did DECNET first appear?
Mid-1970s, depending on which version ("Phase") you consider to be
"DECnet". I'm sure someone will provide a more specific date.
using what means to connect each system.
Point to point serial (note that doesn't mean RS-232!) links (rarely
parallel) using various means for the actual physical connection.
DECnet definitely predates Ethernet by many years, if that's your
point.
Bob
ANF10!
DISCO DUCK
DISCO FEVER
(wasn't there a third one?)
:-)
ANF10 is a fond memory... Do I remember right that it was based on PDP-8
machines acting as connection points? Did they talk serial lines between
each other?
Johnny
Hello!
If that's the case, then how would these machines communicate over
longer distances? For that matter, before Ethernet, and even the
current methods of fast connections we have now, would all of you
believe that we did use either dial-up on leased lines?
Mentioned in Cliff Stoll's book, "Cuckoo's Egg" is how his university
was connected to the Internet.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On 2011-07-17 20.59, Peter Lothberg wrote:
When did DECNET first appear?
Mid-1970s, depending on which version ("Phase") you consider to be
"DECnet". I'm sure someone will provide a more specific date.
using what means to connect each system.
Point to point serial (note that doesn't mean RS-232!) links (rarely
parallel) using various means for the actual physical connection.
DECnet definitely predates Ethernet by many years, if that's your point.
Bob
ANF10!
DISCO DUCK
DISCO FEVER
(wasn't there a third one?)
:-)
ANF10 is a fond memory... Do I remember right that it was based on PDP-8 machines acting as connection points? Did they talk serial lines between each other?
Johnny
When did DECNET first appear?
Mid-1970s, depending on which version ("Phase") you consider to be
"DECnet". I'm sure someone will provide a more specific date.
using what means to connect each system.
Point to point serial (note that doesn't mean RS-232!) links (rarely
parallel) using various means for the actual physical connection.
DECnet definitely predates Ethernet by many years, if that's your point.
Bob
ANF10!
On 2011-07-17 20.41, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
Johnny, in general I am a strong believer in the motto that if someting isn't broken then you shouldn't try to fix it.
And I always felt that a bridged ( or switched :-) lan is "better" than a routed lan, provided enough bandwidth is available.
Thanks. The problem is that there are limits that a bridged ethernet will hit, and we're getting close to where it will hurt in HECnet.
It simply does not scale well.
That is why it might be that we need to do something else eventually. Either split so we have several smaller segments, with normal DECnet machines routing in between them, or else write a virtual router. Who knows what we'll do in the end. :-)
Johnny
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Johnny Billquist<bqt at softjar.se>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 20:34:53
To:<hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet et al
On 2011-07-17 20.22, Peter Lothberg wrote:
But HECnet as a whole is not connected to this segment...
I thought the majority of it was... There are a few people, like me, who
are using Multinet but only a few cases. I thought pretty much everything
was bridged.
[FWIW, Multinet tunnels a point-to-point DECnet link, essentially like a
DDCMP link, over UDP. For that you really need to have a router at either
end to pass traffic for other machines on either LAN.]
Bob
Johnny,
If you can make a DECnet router, (l3...) or make the Internet look like point-to-point
(ddcmp) links, it would work 'better'. As sending all areas as 'rip
vectors' every second is not'usefull'.
Yes. The bridge is simple, but not really ideal. It causes a lot of
traffic that would be better if we could restrict.
But for a router, we need to talk the DECnet routing packets, which I
think might not be that bad, but then also route DECnet packets, which
means much more cleverness. I'm afraid I definitely don't have time for
all that.
But it would be nice. You could even be extra clever and only present
one DECnet node with n interfaces, one for each endpoing that currently
have a bridge. So it would seem like everyone had a connection to that
router, but no direct connection to the other endpoints. So we'd have
routing traffic running p-t-p to the virtual router, but no need to
spread that traffic all over the earth, as is done today. Each end would
still be running the bridge just like today, but the central hub would
be rather different.
And I'm offline, as I only speak Multinet and Decnet in GRE... (and
takes for endpoints?)
Yeah. I know... I think you are not the only one not at all on the
bridge, but I can't remember anyone else off hand.
Johnny
On 2011-07-17 20.35, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote:
DECnet phase 4 is about as old as ethernet and VMS. Ethernet was the main driving force for phase 4 owing to the large number of adjacent nodes and the sheer number.
Not really. Phase IV is about as old as ethernet, yes. VMS is older...
Phase 3 does not have areas and only recognizes 255 hosts max. It did have circuit routing (of course)
Yes. About the same thing as L1 routing. I think it might even be partially compatible, within the restrictions on the number of nodes...
Johnny
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg Levine<gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:26:07
To:<hecnet at update.uu.se>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet et al
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 2:24 PM, Bob Armstrong<bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
A bridge (hw) maintains a list of mac addresses it sees at each port.
FWIW, that's a "switch" at least in the common usage of the word over
here.
Bob
Hello!
I agree! Now first things first. When did DECNET first appear? And
more importantly, based on what systems and using what means to
connect each system.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
Johnny, in general I am a strong believer in the motto that if someting isn't broken then you shouldn't try to fix it.
And I always felt that a bridged ( or switched :-) lan is "better" than a routed lan, provided enough bandwidth is available.
Hans
Verzonden vanaf mijn draadloze BlackBerry -toestel
-----Original Message-----
From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se>
Sender: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 20:34:53
To: <hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Reply-To: hecnet at Update.UU.SESubject: Re: [HECnet] DECnet et al
On 2011-07-17 20.22, Peter Lothberg wrote:
But HECnet as a whole is not connected to this segment...
I thought the majority of it was... There are a few people, like me, who
are using Multinet but only a few cases. I thought pretty much everything
was bridged.
[FWIW, Multinet tunnels a point-to-point DECnet link, essentially like a
DDCMP link, over UDP. For that you really need to have a router at either
end to pass traffic for other machines on either LAN.]
Bob
Johnny,
If you can make a DECnet router, (l3...) or make the Internet look like point-to-point
(ddcmp) links, it would work 'better'. As sending all areas as 'rip
vectors' every second is not'usefull'.
Yes. The bridge is simple, but not really ideal. It causes a lot of
traffic that would be better if we could restrict.
But for a router, we need to talk the DECnet routing packets, which I
think might not be that bad, but then also route DECnet packets, which
means much more cleverness. I'm afraid I definitely don't have time for
all that.
But it would be nice. You could even be extra clever and only present
one DECnet node with n interfaces, one for each endpoing that currently
have a bridge. So it would seem like everyone had a connection to that
router, but no direct connection to the other endpoints. So we'd have
routing traffic running p-t-p to the virtual router, but no need to
spread that traffic all over the earth, as is done today. Each end would
still be running the bridge just like today, but the central hub would
be rather different.
And I'm offline, as I only speak Multinet and Decnet in GRE... (and
takes for endpoints?)
Yeah. I know... I think you are not the only one not at all on the
bridge, but I can't remember anyone else off hand.
Johnny
