HECnet

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15586 discussions

by Paul_Koning＠Dell.com

On Jun 7, 2012, at 7:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: On 06/07/2012 08:23 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: Howabout starting it as a daemon (running as root) via the boot scripts, and have non-root users's programs access it via a socket? Cool idea - you could even have multiple hosts connect this way but export one DECNET endpoint, i.e. run CTERM on Box A whilst FAL goes to Box B, and MAIL to Box C :) Yes, you could multiplex/demultiplex it any way you wanted. It would open up all sorts of interesting configuration possibilities. I think it would help if you actually explained a little more what you actually want to accomplish, and what you see as the problems...? We're just batting some ideas around. One problem is that the current DECnet stack for Linux has fallen into dismaintenance, and if that can't be changed, it will eventually stop working on current-ish kernels. The idea is to write a userland (meaning outside the kernel, not running under a non-root UID) implementation of DECnet and have non-root users' apps (dncopy, etc) talk to it via a local socket. That made me think of something... it could be split. If root privs are needed to get Ethernet to do the DECnet MAC address thing (promiscuous or otherwise), one could have a daemon that runs as root that implements the Ethernet datalink layer. Have it communicate with a non-root daemon that does the rest of the protocol stack; that in turn communicates with the applications. Worth it? Perhaps not. If people aren't worried about having the whole stack in a program with root privs, then this isn't necessary. BTW, another thing that such an implementation should do is implement DDCMP. I looked at it once as a module that ties into the terminal driver ("line discipline", was that what it's called???). But in the user mode way of looking at it, a DDCMP layer implementation would simply be a bit of plain old application code that talks to a terminal port configured in raw mode. paul

13 years, 6 months

lunchbox VAXen, was Re: [HECnet] Introducing myself... and my little network

by gregg.drwho8＠gmail.com

On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: On 06/07/2012 07:42 PM, Bob Armstrong wrote: Lunchboxes! :-) And there are images for new boot ROMs available for those which will allow you to boot from the on-board SCSI host adapter, ... I've heard of this, but I haven't seen it. As I recall, the onboard SCSI adapter uses programmed I/O (no DMA!) so it's really slow. For a TK50 nobody would ever notice, but for the system disk it's a problem. Better to cluster boot one, diskless. That'd likely be faster! I'm thinking of the case where one would want a standalone machine, and the XT2190/RD54 is as capacious as MFM gets. Having never run a '2000 via its SCSI host adapter myself, only the MFM interface, I'd have to wonder whether the bottleneck would be that PIO-accessed NCR5380 or the 78032 itself! FWIW, an RD54 isn't necessary. The 2000 can easily be convinced to use _any_ MFM drive, DEC or not. You can get VMS V4 on a 30 meg drive, maybe even 20, if you're determined. Long ago I wrote up a little description of all the VS 2000 disk formatter parameters, what they meant, and how to fake them for non-DEC drives. Google ancient Usenet postings if you're interested. I've had a copy of that archived away for many, many years. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA Hello! I don't know why, but here goes, a while ago there were advertisements for a thing DEC called the "rtVAX", it was the processor element in a case about the size of a paperback and mounted on a VME board. They advertised it as an embedded processor for specialty applications. The user would, what else? build their code on a host such as what we are talking about and including the implied difficulties of debugging it of course, and then deploy it onto the unit's storage media. And then off it went wearing the code written and the rest of it on something else. Why I want one (or two or three or four) is any number of reasons, but it would be an interesting job getting one of the things working on our network. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

13 years, 6 months

lunchbox VAXen, was Re: [HECnet] Introducing myself... and my little network

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 06/07/2012 07:42 PM, Bob Armstrong wrote: Lunchboxes! :-) And there are images for new boot ROMs available for those which will allow you to boot from the on-board SCSI host adapter, ... I've heard of this, but I haven't seen it. As I recall, the onboard SCSI adapter uses programmed I/O (no DMA!) so it's really slow. For a TK50 nobody would ever notice, but for the system disk it's a problem. Better to cluster boot one, diskless. That'd likely be faster! I'm thinking of the case where one would want a standalone machine, and the XT2190/RD54 is as capacious as MFM gets. Having never run a '2000 via its SCSI host adapter myself, only the MFM interface, I'd have to wonder whether the bottleneck would be that PIO-accessed NCR5380 or the 78032 itself! FWIW, an RD54 isn't necessary. The 2000 can easily be convinced to use _any_ MFM drive, DEC or not. You can get VMS V4 on a 30 meg drive, maybe even 20, if you're determined. Long ago I wrote up a little description of all the VS 2000 disk formatter parameters, what they meant, and how to fake them for non-DEC drives. Google ancient Usenet postings if you're interested. I've had a copy of that archived away for many, many years. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

13 years, 6 months

lunchbox VAXen, was Re: [HECnet] Introducing myself... and my little network

by bob＠jfcl.com

Lunchboxes! :-) And there are images for new boot ROMs available for those which will allow you to boot from the on-board SCSI host adapter, ... I've heard of this, but I haven't seen it. As I recall, the onboard SCSI adapter uses programmed I/O (no DMA!) so it's really slow. For a TK50 nobody would ever notice, but for the system disk it's a problem. Better to cluster boot one, diskless. FWIW, an RD54 isn't necessary. The 2000 can easily be convinced to use _any_ MFM drive, DEC or not. You can get VMS V4 on a 30 meg drive, maybe even 20, if you're determined. Long ago I wrote up a little description of all the VS 2000 disk formatter parameters, what they meant, and how to fake them for non-DEC drives. Google ancient Usenet postings if you're interested. Bob

13 years, 6 months

New bridge.c feedback

by Alastair.Boyanich＠au.fujitsu.com

Ah.. newer version available. Actually.. I think I'm about 50+ emails behind -CURRENT on the list .. I'll go read through them first and catch up. Al. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, 7 June 2012 6:11 PM To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE Subject: Re: [HECnet] New bridge.c feedback On 2012-06-07 09:42, Johnny Billquist wrote: Hi, Alastair. Thanks for the feedback. Interesting... Care to help me figure some things out...? On 2012-06-07 08:33, Boyanich, Alastair wrote: cc-1171 cc: WARNING File = bridge.c, Line = 684 The indicated expression has no effect. if (port == 0) port == DPORT; ^ Blech! Well, DPORT is by default set to 0. See the documentation of the define in the sources... This one will stay. Oh well. I made a conditional around this, so that if people don't change DPORT, it will not even be compiled. Warning gone... Cleaned up the code some, based on inspiration fallout here. New version available. No functional changes... Johnny

13 years, 6 months

New bridge.c feedback

by Alastair.Boyanich＠au.fujitsu.com

Hi Johnny, Yes. It seems to want <strings.h> 6.5.24 and above (or 6.5.29f in my case) was aiming at SUSv3 compliance away from base XPG4 so things were moved to strings.h (http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/index.html) .. it's also in the 3c index man page, you were right. So, compiles on IRIX 6.5.29 if the header is included. Worth gating it in via #ifdef ? I'm also a fan of enum types. Binary emitted is ~298kb. Also, your welcome to an account on the system if you wish to poke/play around, it's accessible over ssh and the general internet (it's my daily shell/hacking on code box). -Wall makes the MIPSpro runtime *extremely* chatty. It's quite anal. See below. Al. cc-3201 cc: REMARK File = bridge.c, Line = 158 The parameter "data" was never referenced. int lookup(struct sockaddr_in *sa, char *data) ^ cc-1506 cc: REMARK File = bridge.c, Line = 460 There is an implicit conversion from "unsigned long" to "long"; rounding, sign extension, or loss of accuracy may result. delta = timedelta(bridge[index].lasttime); ^ cc-3201 cc: REMARK File = bridge.c, Line = 559 The parameter "r" was never referenced. void dump_nomatch(struct sockaddr_in *r, struct DATA *d) ^ cc-3201 cc: REMARK File = bridge.c, Line = 559 The parameter "d" was never referenced. void dump_nomatch(struct sockaddr_in *r, struct DATA *d) ^ cc-1185 cc: WARNING File = bridge.c, Line = 579 An enumerated type is mixed with another type. d->type = classify_packet(d); ^ cc-1171 cc: WARNING File = bridge.c, Line = 685 The indicated expression has no effect. if (port == 0) port == DPORT; ^ cc-1498 cc: REMARK File = bridge.c, Line = 709 There is no prototype for the call to read_conf. read_conf(); ^ cc-1209 cc: REMARK File = bridge.c, Line = 715 The controlling expression is constant. while(1) { ^ jazz:~/src/HECnet[436]%

13 years, 6 months

lunchbox VAXen, was Re: [HECnet] Introducing myself... and my little network

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 06/07/2012 09:13 AM, hvlems at zonnet.nl wrote: A vaxstation 2000 and a microvax 2000 run V4.7 too. With VWS instead of Motif at a reasonable speed. Lunchboxes! :-) And there are images for new boot ROMs available for those which will allow you to boot from the on-board SCSI host adapter, which is relatively slow (NCR5380-based) but still less painful than trying to find, and then afford to purchase, an RD54. I think someone even wrote a driver for VMS to use disks on that controller. I have several of those machines; I really should look into that. Does anyone have any further information on, or actual copies of, those boot ROMs and/or the VMS device driver? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

13 years, 6 months

Introducing myself... and my little network

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 06/07/2012 08:35 AM, Jordi Guillaumes i Pons wrote: According to this: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.html Support for the 4000/90 came in version 5.5-2 (1992). The 3300 was supported in 5.0-2 and the 4000 mod. 2000 in 5.4-2. So none of my real boxen can run 4.7. Well you've gotta find yourself some more machines! 11/750s are probably the most common of the 4.x-capable machines, though there don't seem to be many left floating around. Heh, then I would have to find also a new home and probably an attorney to handle de divorce demand ;) I'll keep my mouth shut.. ;) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

13 years, 6 months

promiscuous mode, was Re: [HECnet] Multinet Tunnel Connections to SG1::

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 06/07/2012 08:16 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: Any program that needs access to raw ethernet packets needs to run as root. Promiscuous mode or not. Promiscuous mode itself has little to do with this. So if you want to run anything like a bridge or a router, you will need to run it as root. Promiscuous mode is basically just allowing you to share the same interface as the system is otherwise using, instead of having to dedicate a separate ethernet interface for this. Maybe you're just putting this another way, but promiscuous mode is correctly defined a bit differently than this. When an Ethernet controller is placed into promiscuous mode, its on-chip MAC address filters, which normally either select or ignore inbound packets based on their MAC address, are disabled. ALL packets are received by the hardware and passed to the Ethernet driver in the OS, rather than only the ones destined for that specific interface as defined by its MAC address. I'm reasonably certain that you know this but were just explaining it in a more abstract way...? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

13 years, 6 months

Multinet Tunnel Connections to SG1::

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On 06/07/2012 08:23 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: Howabout starting it as a daemon (running as root) via the boot scripts, and have non-root users's programs access it via a socket? Cool idea - you could even have multiple hosts connect this way but export one DECNET endpoint, i.e. run CTERM on Box A whilst FAL goes to Box B, and MAIL to Box C :) Yes, you could multiplex/demultiplex it any way you wanted. It would open up all sorts of interesting configuration possibilities. I think it would help if you actually explained a little more what you actually want to accomplish, and what you see as the problems...? We're just batting some ideas around. One problem is that the current DECnet stack for Linux has fallen into dismaintenance, and if that can't be changed, it will eventually stop working on current-ish kernels. The idea is to write a userland (meaning outside the kernel, not running under a non-root UID) implementation of DECnet and have non-root users' apps (dncopy, etc) talk to it via a local socket. Of course it'd be preferable in a dozen ways to have the native kernel-based DECnet support continue to be maintained, alongside IPv4, IPv6, etc where it belongs...but if we can't find anyone to do that work, we'll have to solve the problem some other way, when it actually becomes a problem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

13 years, 6 months

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