On 2013-07-16 02:42, Boyanich, Alastair wrote:
Was there ever a UNIBUS DSSI controller or were they all XMI only like
the KFMSA ? That d be pretty convenient to use either:
$DSSI_CONTROLLER <-> HSD <-> BA350 <-> SCSI to CF adapter
or
$DSSI_CONTROLLER <-> HSV <-> BA356 <-> SCSI to CF adapter
As others mentioned - DSSI existed for Qbus. But no, nothing for Unibus.
However, seems like a long way around to get to SCSI by using DSSI. Why not go SCSI direct in that case?
Johnny
On Tue, 16 Jul 2013, Johnny Billquist wrote:
SCSI has already been mentioned. On the 8650 I "have", there is UDA-50
with RA92 and RA73 drives, and CI, which in the end leads to more SCSI
disks....
But you can't hook CI to a 11/730 either...
Awwww.
Unfortunate, but nto surprising.
I ve actually had the 11/730 for about fifteen years now I restored
it out of parts from two different 730s that were scrapped. It s been
fairly easy to keep running except for the drives, and although it s
admittedly a bit slow, it s a cool machine.
It is horribly slow... :-)
Johnny
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 2013-07-15 22:32, Bob Armstrong wrote:
Cory Smelosky [b4 at gewt.net] wrote:
You could rig up a MASSBUS-compatible controller that interfaces
with either full SCSI/IDE ....
No MASSBUS controllers on the 730, remember? The only MASSBUS controllers
supported by VMS are the RH750 (for the 11/750) and RH780 (for the 11/78x).
The RH780 was also used on the 86x0 machines.
I'd love to see your -11/730 working on HECnet!
LARGO::, 2.6. It's been up many times and will be again, as long as the
current disk holds out.
Alternatively, can a -11/730 be booted over the network?
No, there's no netboot for any 7xx VAX...
Correct, for the most common definition. Of course, if you manage to start some special bootstrap program, if could boot off the net just as well as something else. But VMB on these machines do not have that support, so it's a chicken-and-egg problem most of the time.
Johnny (Who have netbooted NetBSD on an 8650)
On 2013-07-15 16:37, Clem Cole wrote:
Unibus to SCSI is probably your best bet.
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/cmd/CDU-720_May92.pdf
These are available on eBay for about a $1K last I looked. You'll need
to poke around the VMS web sites for the drivers, but we had some of
these on a couple Unibus machines, including a 780 a >>long<< time ago.
I know no reason why it would work for a 730 - although you might
need to sysgen on a working system to create the boot disk.
Something like a CDU-720 will work just fine. Normal MSCP, so no special device drivers needed either. Works fine in an 11/730, or any Unibus machine in fact. Bootable on just about anything as well.
Johnny
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Bob Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com
<mailto:bob at jfcl.com>> wrote:
My 11/730 is not happy the electronics work great and are even
fairly easy to fix, but keeping disk drives on the thing working is
proving to be a challenge. Right now it has two RA81s and one has
quit completely ( servo fine position error ) and the other is
flaky. The original R80 on the RB730 had the HDA die years ago and
I ve never been able to find a replacement.____
__ __
I have several vintage SMD drives, including a couple of nice CDC
9715 drives, that I was thinking about using to replace the RA8x
drives. I have not one but two UNIBUS SMD controllers an Emulex
SC21 and a Spectra Logic 121 that I thought would do the job, but
after reading the fine print yesterday that turns out not to be
true. Both controllers emulate RH11s with RM0x drives attached,
which is fine if you re a PDP-11 but VMS has never supported that
configuration.____
__ __
[Before anybody says Wait RM05s are supported by VMS, that s
only partly true. VMS supported MASSBUS disks on a RH750 or RH780
controller, but VMS has never supported the RH11. Emulex actually
sold a special VMS driver for their card, but I don t have it and
besides, VMB still wouldn t support it. The Spectra Logic manual
only talks about PDP-11 OSes and carefully avoids ever mentioning
VMS.]____
__ __
I ve got some RA7x drives, but there s no easy way to mount them
or supply power to them. I m not sure if there ever was a rack
mount chassis for RA7x drives. There was for RA9x drives, but those
I don t have. I also have two RC25 drives and several AZTEC
controllers, but those drives were horribly unreliable even when
they were new. Neither works, and fixing them or getting removable
media for them is hopeless.____
__ __
Does anybody have any other ideas? Who else has an old UNIBUS
VAX? What are you doing to disk drives? ____
__ __
I ve actually had the 11/730 for about fifteen years now I
restored it out of parts from two different 730s that were
scrapped. It s been fairly easy to keep running except for the
drives, and although it s admittedly a bit slow, it s a cool
machine.____
__ __
Bob____
Been away a few days, so late into the game. But anyway...
On 2013-07-15 16:21, Bob Armstrong wrote:
My 11/730 is not happy the electronics work great and are even
fairly easy to fix, but keeping disk drives on the thing working is
proving to be a challenge. Right now it has two RA81s and one has quit
completely ( servo fine position error ) and the other is flaky. The
original R80 on the RB730 had the HDA die years ago and I ve never been
able to find a replacement.
Saw the talk about the R80. I believe that either an RA80 or RM80 could provide the bits for the R80, but finding either would be difficult today.
RA81 is probably easier to deal with, but those are also getting rare.
I have several vintage SMD drives, including a couple of nice CDC
9715 drives, that I was thinking about using to replace the RA8x
drives. I have not one but two UNIBUS SMD controllers an Emulex SC21
and a Spectra Logic 121 that I thought would do the job, but after
reading the fine print yesterday that turns out not to be true. Both
controllers emulate RH11s with RM0x drives attached, which is fine if
you re a PDP-11 but VMS has never supported that configuration.
Right.
[Before anybody says Wait RM05s are supported by VMS, that s only
partly true. VMS supported MASSBUS disks on a RH750 or RH780
controller, but VMS has never supported the RH11. Emulex actually sold
a special VMS driver for their card, but I don t have it and besides,
VMB still wouldn t support it. The Spectra Logic manual only talks
about PDP-11 OSes and carefully avoids ever mentioning VMS.]
Not surprising, since the RH11 do not really fit into the world of VAXen very well.
I ve got some RA7x drives, but there s no easy way to mount them or
supply power to them. I m not sure if there ever was a rack mount
chassis for RA7x drives. There was for RA9x drives, but those I don t
have. I also have two RC25 drives and several AZTEC controllers, but
those drives were horribly unreliable even when they were new. Neither
works, and fixing them or getting removable media for them is hopeless.
Others already mentioned the rack box for RA7x drives. Nice hardware, if you can find it. It is the same size as the RA9x drives, but fits four RA7x drives each. With RA73 drives, you'll pack a whopping 8G on each rack location. Fairly impressive for its day. You just needs plenty of controllers... :-)
Does anybody have any other ideas? Who else has an old UNIBUS VAX?
What are you doing to disk drives?
SCSI has already been mentioned. On the 8650 I "have", there is UDA-50 with RA92 and RA73 drives, and CI, which in the end leads to more SCSI disks....
But you can't hook CI to a 11/730 either...
I ve actually had the 11/730 for about fifteen years now I restored
it out of parts from two different 730s that were scrapped. It s been
fairly easy to keep running except for the drives, and although it s
admittedly a bit slow, it s a cool machine.
It is horribly slow... :-)
Johnny
On 07/15/2013 11:00 AM, lee.gleason at comcast.net wrote:
>> My first home machine was an 11/725, to which I added an RB730
>> controller , and I used it with an RM80 for a number of years, until
>> power problems killed a bunch of boards in it. I hated losing it, since
>> I had also added a VAXstation 100 workstation peripheral to it - at the
>> time it was a pretty exotic setup for use at home. I'm still hanging on
>> tothe VS100 gear, in case another Unibus VAX comes my way.
> Do you have the VS100 interface board? I saw one on eBay a couple of
>months ago, and I slapped myself in the forehead really hard. ;) I had
>a VS100 for many years, and gave it away around 1993 because I could
>never find the interface board for it. When I saw that board hit eBay,
>I really wish I'd kept the VS100..
Yep, hung on to the board. I actually had to be a detective to get the interface board - when I bought the VS100 box and monitor, from Eli Hoffman, it didn't include the board. I had to call them, see who sold the monitor and box to them, and then trace through that organization to find the department and person who had surplused the original system, and buy the board from him.
Since these days, I have a lot more interest in RSX than VMS, and the VS100 never worked past VMS 4.7 anyway, I'm hoping I run across a UNIBUS 11 some day and see if I can write enough of a driver to get it to draw pictures. Since I have the VS100 sources, it's registers are pretty well documented.
--
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
lee.gleason at gmail.com
On 2013-07-12 22:12, Bob Armstrong wrote:
Check that the transport lock isn't engaged.
... and that the belt tensioner isn't released. Sorry - neither is the
case. Not that easy...
It was worth a try. :-)
Anyway, I can't say my experience of the RA81 are that they are that unreliable. You have the glue issue, but that is a different kind of problem. Otherwise they have been pretty good. The RA60 on the other hand is very finicky.
But if it has developed problems I don't have many suggestions. I assume you already know about the diagnostics port.
Johnny
Clem Cole [clemc at ccc.com] wrote:
We had both SI and Emulex controllers (SBI based) .....
but I did not think those will work on a 730
The 730 has a "built in" disk controller, the RB730. Other than that
there was no special bus (e.g. SBI) for the 730 and all peripherals were
UNIBUS. No SBI based controller will work in a 730.
performance based customers
No performance based customer would have even considered a 730 - it's tied
with the MicroVAX-I as the slowest two VAXes ever made. The 730s claim to
fame was the small size and low cost. You have to remember that it was
designed in the late 70s and shipped in the early 80s. I worked at DEC at
the time and I saw one around 80 or 81, and I remember that at first I
thought they were putting me on. I couldn't believe that they'd put an
entire VAX into a box that size! I thought it was really just another PDP-11
and someone had hacked the front panel graphics - after all, it looked just
like a 11/24 or 44. But it was a real VAX, and it's still the smallest
UNIBUS VAX ever made.
Bob
We had a number of CDC 9766 & Fujistu Eagle drives at UCB on the 780s and 750s. I don't remember special cables other than the two SMD cables from the controller. We had both SI and Emulex controllers (SBI based) for them, and I do remember there was a preference for one over the other, but at this point I do not remember which was considered better. I think is was the Emulex ones - but I did not think those will work on a 730 - we never had them at UCB.
By the time of the 730 was released many (??most??) performance based customers were abandoning Vaxen and moving to Masscomp, Sun, and Apollo (68K based) because the 730 was expensive and so much slower [I used to goad one of the lead 730 designers that the 730 was the greatest gift to the UNIX / 68K community, because it meant most anyone could easily beat a "Vax" in a benchmark]. Actually it was interesting time, you could tell a lot about a firm in their advertising. The solid firms with products that lasted would benchmark against the 780 or 785, the weaker ones would use a 730 and talk about it being a "Vax" and then in fine print say it as 730.
Clem
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 10:14 PM, John Wilson <wilson at dbit.com> wrote:
From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com>
>As I remember, the RM02/3/5 were CDC 9760-something drives, which were SMD.
>Of course it's possible that the DEC OEM versions had customized interfaces.
Yes, DEC made a bunch of gratuitous changes, although it might be possible
to duplicate them with another drive. IIRC they reversed the polarity of
most/all of the signals on one cable (it's differential so you can fix that
by swapping wires), and the direction of the unit-select lines is reversed
(so the plug in the drive tells the RM adapter what Massbus unit to be,
rather than telling the drive what SMD unit to be). I think there are
a few other things but the basic I/O interface is the same.
My 11/730 has a UDA50 + RA81 instead of the RB730, and was bootable last
time it was anything-able, FWIW. So I'd think a CDU720/etc. would work
fine too.
John Wilson
D Bit
On 15.7.2013 23:29, Sampsa Laine wrote:
What's the name of the product, going to grep through the SPL CDs I have..
The latest one is a part of the Pathworks V6.0 kit.
The (complete) kit is called PWRK060.
When finding products on the SPL distributions, there is a very helpful web site which you might want to use:
http://de.openvms.org/spl.php?product_name=netware&upi=&platform=&condist_i…
Kari
From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob at jfcl.com>
As I remember, the RM02/3/5 were CDC 9760-something drives, which were SMD.
Of course it's possible that the DEC OEM versions had customized interfaces.
Yes, DEC made a bunch of gratuitous changes, although it might be possible
to duplicate them with another drive. IIRC they reversed the polarity of
most/all of the signals on one cable (it's differential so you can fix that
by swapping wires), and the direction of the unit-select lines is reversed
(so the plug in the drive tells the RM adapter what Massbus unit to be,
rather than telling the drive what SMD unit to be). I think there are
a few other things but the basic I/O interface is the same.
My 11/730 has a UDA50 + RA81 instead of the RB730, and was bootable last
time it was anything-able, FWIW. So I'd think a CDU720/etc. would work
fine too.
John Wilson
D Bit
Boyanich, Alastair [Alastair.Boyanich at au.fujitsu.com] wrote:
Was there ever a UNIBUS DSSI controller or were they all XMI only ...
... don't know about UNIBUS, but there was a QBUS DSSI controller - the
KFQSA, M7769. I've got one of those in a uVAX-III. I'd use a UNIBUS one if
I had it (I even have some spare RF drives) but otherwise the RA7x/RA9x
drives seem easier.
Bob
lee.gleason at comcast.net wrote:
I remember poring over the drawings for the RB730 at the time,
wondering if a plain non-DEC SMD drive would have worked ....
Yeah - I was wondering the same thing. The RM80 Technical Manual doesn't seem to be online, but the RM MASSBUS Adapter Technical Manual
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/EK-RMA…
has a lot of information about the RM80 too. It looks like the RM80 used the same MASSBUS Drive Control Logic box as the RM0x drives. As I remember, the RM02/3/5 were CDC 9760-something drives, which were SMD. Of course it's possible that the DEC OEM versions had customized interfaces.
The RB730 Technical Manual is also online
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/vax/730/EK-RB730-TD-001_VAX-11_7…
and it has a description of the R80 interface, but this version doesn't look that much like SMD to me.
Bb
On 07/15/2013 10:21 AM, Bob Armstrong wrote:
I have several vintage SMD drives, including a couple of nice CDC
9715 drives, that I was thinking about using to replace the RA8x
drives. I have not one but two UNIBUS SMD controllers an Emulex SC21
and a Spectra Logic 121 that I thought would do the job, but after
reading the fine print yesterday that turns out not to be true. Both
controllers emulate RH11s with RM0x drives attached, which is fine if
you re a PDP-11 but VMS has never supported that configuration.
...
I ve got some RA7x drives, but there s no easy way to mount them or
supply power to them. I m not sure if there ever was a rack mount
chassis for RA7x drives. There was for RA9x drives, but those I don t
have.
There are rackmount chassis for RA7x drives. They hold four drives, two in the front and two in the back, and each take up half a rack width...meaning a pair of these chassis, holding up to eight RA7x drives, is about the same size as an RL02/R80/RA81/etc.
I have a bunch of these. I'm hanging onto them (I have a LOT of machines here) but they're not tough to find. Let me know if you'd like me to take some pictures of them so you can more easily identify them when they pop up.
That said, though, I have a shortage of SMD drives here, and you said you have a bunch of those; I MIGHT be interested in some sort of a swap at some point.
Does anybody have any other ideas? Who else has an old UNIBUS VAX?
What are you doing to disk drives?
I have an R80 on my 11/730 and an RA81 (though now dead) on my 11/750.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 07/15/2013 11:00 AM, lee.gleason at comcast.net wrote:
My first home machine was an 11/725, to which I added an RB730
controller , and I used it with an RM80 for a number of years, until
power problems killed a bunch of boards in it. I hated losing it, since
I had also added a VAXstation 100 workstation peripheral to it - at the
time it was a pretty exotic setup for use at home. I'm still hanging on
tothe VS100 gear, in case another Unibus VAX comes my way.
Do you have the VS100 interface board? I saw one on eBay a couple of months ago, and I slapped myself in the forehead really hard. ;) I had a VS100 for many years, and gave it away around 1993 because I could never find the interface board for it. When I saw that board hit eBay, I really wish I'd kept the VS100..
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Was there ever a UNIBUS DSSI controller or were they all XMI only like the KFMSA ? That d be pretty convenient to use either:
$DSSI_CONTROLLER <-> HSD <-> BA350 <-> SCSI to CF adapter
or
$DSSI_CONTROLLER <-> HSV <-> BA356 <-> SCSI to CF adapter
Al.
On 15 Jul 2013, at 16:32, Bob Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
Cory Smelosky [b4 at gewt.net] wrote:
You could rig up a MASSBUS-compatible controller that interfaces
with either full SCSI/IDE ....
No MASSBUS controllers on the 730, remember? The only MASSBUS controllers
supported by VMS are the RH750 (for the 11/750) and RH780 (for the 11/78x).
I'd love to see your -11/730 working on HECnet!
LARGO::, 2.6. It's been up many times and will be again, as long as the
current disk holds out.
Alternatively, can a -11/730 be booted over the network?
No, there's no netboot for any 7xx VAX...
Had a feeling I was misremembering.
Bob
Cory Smelosky [b4 at gewt.net] wrote:
You could rig up a MASSBUS-compatible controller that interfaces
with either full SCSI/IDE ....
No MASSBUS controllers on the 730, remember? The only MASSBUS controllers
supported by VMS are the RH750 (for the 11/750) and RH780 (for the 11/78x).
I'd love to see your -11/730 working on HECnet!
LARGO::, 2.6. It's been up many times and will be again, as long as the
current disk holds out.
Alternatively, can a -11/730 be booted over the network?
No, there's no netboot for any 7xx VAX...
Bob
What's the name of the product, going to grep through the SPL CDs I have..
sampsa <sampsa at mac.com>
mobile +358 40 7208932
On 15 Jul 2013, at 23:17, Kari Uusim ki <uusimaki at exdecfinland.org> wrote:
On 15.7.2013 21:56, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Kari Uusim ki wrote:
On 14.7.2013 14:15, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Morning all,
Would anyone be interested in adding IPX to the tunnels? ;)
I have an IPX network partially up at the moment. Is there any OpenVMS
IPX support? There's SNA integration so I don't see why DEC wouldn't
let Novell be unsupported. ;)
Sampsa, you could join easily if you pick up a low-power older cisco
router for absurdly cheap if you don't care about speed. (like a
2524...10BASE-T! It'd be perfect for IPX and low-bandwidth DECnet
tunnels!)
There used to be Pathworks for Novell Netware. A Netware (3.12) server
instance running on VMS. It was talking IPX.
I would be interested in finding that.
It can be found on many SPL CD's.
The first version appeared in May 1994 and the last version was on the 1998 SPL's.
Kari
On 15.7.2013 21:56, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Kari Uusim ki wrote:
On 14.7.2013 14:15, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Morning all,
Would anyone be interested in adding IPX to the tunnels? ;)
I have an IPX network partially up at the moment. Is there any OpenVMS
IPX support? There's SNA integration so I don't see why DEC wouldn't
let Novell be unsupported. ;)
Sampsa, you could join easily if you pick up a low-power older cisco
router for absurdly cheap if you don't care about speed. (like a
2524...10BASE-T! It'd be perfect for IPX and low-bandwidth DECnet
tunnels!)
There used to be Pathworks for Novell Netware. A Netware (3.12) server
instance running on VMS. It was talking IPX.
I would be interested in finding that.
It can be found on many SPL CD's.
The first version appeared in May 1994 and the last version was on the 1998 SPL's.
Kari
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Gregg Levine wrote:
On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Kari Uusim ki
<uusimaki at exdecfinland.org> wrote:
On 14.7.2013 14:15, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Morning all,
Would anyone be interested in adding IPX to the tunnels? ;)
I have an IPX network partially up at the moment. Is there any OpenVMS
IPX support? There's SNA integration so I don't see why DEC wouldn't
let Novell be unsupported. ;)
Sampsa, you could join easily if you pick up a low-power older cisco
router for absurdly cheap if you don't care about speed. (like a
2524...10BASE-T! It'd be perfect for IPX and low-bandwidth DECnet
tunnels!)
There used to be Pathworks for Novell Netware. A Netware (3.12) server
instance running on VMS. It was talking IPX.
Kari
Hello!
Oddly enough I remember seeing it demonstrated at a trade show. About
the same time that the pest that became Windows NT (on MIPS and Alpha)
was being discussed. In fact I did ask what about it, made it
different then the regular example Pathworks. Let's just say the
response was an interesting one.
That's...quite interesting. I'm surprised to see that PathWorks for NETWARE was demonstrated at a trade show!
-----
Now why are the Yeti gathered all around your place Cory?
They want my ADSL WIC.
----
Dave don't do that.... Even if I was there, I wouldn't do that. But
oddly enough there is someone out there who calls himself the Doctor,
must be an earlier version of myself. And with backup, that's Liz Shaw
staring at you strangely.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Kari Uusim ki wrote:
On 14.7.2013 14:15, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Morning all,
Would anyone be interested in adding IPX to the tunnels? ;)
I have an IPX network partially up at the moment. Is there any OpenVMS
IPX support? There's SNA integration so I don't see why DEC wouldn't
let Novell be unsupported. ;)
Sampsa, you could join easily if you pick up a low-power older cisco
router for absurdly cheap if you don't care about speed. (like a
2524...10BASE-T! It'd be perfect for IPX and low-bandwidth DECnet
tunnels!)
There used to be Pathworks for Novell Netware. A Netware (3.12) server
instance running on VMS. It was talking IPX.
I would be interested in finding that.
Kari
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Bob Armstrong wrote:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/cmd/CDU-720_May92.pdf
These are available on eBay for about a $1K last I looked.
Eeek!
You'll need to poke around the VMS web sites for the drivers
Looks like it does MSCP - I don't know why you'd need special drivers
unless maybe to support non-standard sized drives.
Bob
Alternatively, can a -11/730 be booted over the network? I seem to recall in the DEUNA manual that direct netboot wasn't possible but it could be done with an intermediate bootloader of sorts.
Correct me if I'm wrong!
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013, Bob Armstrong wrote:
Does anybody have any other ideas? Who else has an old UNIBUS VAX? What
are you doing to disk drives?
You could rig up a MASSBUS-compatible controller that interfaces with either full SCSI/IDE drives or images on said drive similar to how that one museum does it.
I'd love to see your -11/730 working on HECnet!
I've actually had the 11/730 for about fifteen years now - I restored it
out of parts from two different 730s that were scrapped. It's been fairly
easy to keep running except for the drives, and although it's admittedly a
bit slow, it's a cool machine.
Bob
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
No affiliation, caveat emptor etc. but these look very nice for 250GBP delivered:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281135868757
--
Mark Benson
http://DECtec.info
Twitter: @DECtecInfo
HECnet: STAR69::MARK
Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts.
