25 Feb
2020
25 Feb
'20
3:42 p.m.
What are the alternatives for bridging DECnet systems across the Internet
that don't require any special hardware and can be self hosted on
OpenVMS/VAX?
I'm aware of Paul's Python router, but I didn't think it ran on a VAX. Am
I wrong about that? Is there a Python for OpenVMS/VAX? I believe there's a
port for AXP but I didn't know about one for VAX.
And I saw Rob mentioned his user mode DECnet router. Same questions -
what environment does that require? And I saw mention it being both
Multinet and simh DDCMp compatible - will it talk to a simh KS10/TOPS10/DMR
?
Bob
25 Feb
25 Feb
3:52 p.m.
On Feb 25, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Robert Armstrong <bob
at jfcl.com> wrote:
What are the alternatives for bridging DECnet systems across the Internet that don?t
require any special hardware and can be self hosted on OpenVMS/VAX?
I?m aware of Paul?s Python router, but I didn?t think it ran on a VAX. Am I wrong
about that? Is there a Python for OpenVMS/VAX? I believe there?s a port for AXP but I
didn?t know about one for VAX.
There was, but I think Python recently dropped VMS support due to lack of a maintainer.
It may well be that it could be resurrected; I don't know what that would involve.
Python is a large package but easy to build, so one might hope this could be done. Note
that PyDECnet requires Python 3, version 3.3 or later. It doesn't work with Python 2
and can't reasonably be backported to that version.
And I saw Rob mentioned his user mode DECnet router.
Same questions ? what environment does that require? And I saw mention it being both
Multinet and simh DDCMp compatible ? will it talk to a simh KS10/TOPS10/DMR ?
Bob
DMR is DMR, so a PDP10 with a DMR should work. TOPS-10 is Phase IV, right? Any of the
common DECnet implementations should talk to that.
If you have TOPS-20 with Phase II, that's more difficult. PyDECnet does talk to Phase
II directly, but I know of no other Phase IV that does so, and Phase III nodes are not
easy to find either.
paul
4:40 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Paul
Koning
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 6:53 AM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
Paul Koning [paulkoning at comcast.net] wrote:
There was, but I think Python recently dropped VMS
support due to lack of a maintainer.
Dropped VMS or dropped VAX? There was a Python for AXP (although I don't know if
it's still supported) but I don't think there was for VAX.
How do people who use your router typically run it? Do they run it on Linux?
TOPS-10 is Phase IV, right? Any of the common DECnet
implementations should talk to that.
TOPS-10 v7.04 (or maybe 7.05) is Phase IV. That's good news - I've wanted to
set up a TOPS-10 simulation, but running a simh780 just to route DECnet for the DMR on
TOPS-10 was not attractive.
I'd rather have TOPS-20 but as you say TOPS-20 on simh with networking is not very
practical.
Bob
4:53 p.m.
On Feb 25, 2020, at 10:40 AM, Robert Armstrong <bob
at jfcl.com> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Paul Koning
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 6:53 AM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
Linux or Mac, including at least one example on Linux on a z/390, and another on
Beaglebone Black. But the point of the exercise was to create code that would run,
unchanged, on anything that supports Python. For example, while I avoid Windows if at all
possible, it certainly should run there without trouble. Or NetBSD, to pick just one
other random example.
Paul Koning [paulkoning at comcast.net] wrote:
There was, but I think Python recently dropped
VMS support due to lack of a maintainer.
Dropped VMS or dropped VAX? There was a Python for AXP (although I don't know if
it's still supported) but I don't think there was for VAX.
How do people who use your router typically run it? Do they run it on Linux? TOPS-10 is
Phase IV, right? Any of the common DECnet implementations should talk to that.
TOPS-10 v7.04 (or maybe 7.05) is Phase IV. That's good news - I've wanted to
set up a TOPS-10 simulation, but running a simh780 just to route DECnet for the DMR on
TOPS-10 was not attractive.
I'd rather have TOPS-20 but as you say TOPS-20 on simh with networking is not very
practical. 
5:01 p.m.
I have pydecnet running on raspberry pi 3b+
under raspbian with the bridge and tap support added. It does the job.
Keith
On 25 Feb 2020, at 15:55, Paul Koning <paulkoning
at comcast.net> wrote:
?
Linux or Mac, including at least one example on Linux on a z/390, and another on
Beaglebone Black. But the point of the exercise was to create code that would run,
unchanged, on anything that supports Python. For example, while I avoid Windows if at all
possible, it certainly should run there without trouble. Or NetBSD, to pick just one
other random example.
It does work well enough that I was able use it to verify Phase II support. I plan to
add intercept support for talking to non-adjacent nodes, but that isn't in yet. A
primitive version is easy, a proper version is quite a lot harder.
paul
On Feb
25, 2020, at 10:40 AM, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Paul Koning
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 6:53 AM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
Dropped VMS or dropped VAX? There was a Python for AXP (although I don't know if
it's still supported) but I don't think there was for VAX.
How do people who use your router typically run it? Do they run it on Linux? Paul Koning [paulkoning at comcast.net] wrote:
There was, but I think Python recently dropped VMS support due to lack of a maintainer.
TOPS-10
is Phase IV, right? Any of the common DECnet implementations should talk to that.
TOPS-10 v7.04 (or maybe 7.05) is Phase IV. That's good news - I've wanted to set
up a TOPS-10 simulation, but running a simh780 just to route DECnet for the DMR on TOPS-10
was not attractive.
I'd rather have TOPS-20 but as you say TOPS-20 on simh with networking is not very
practical. 
6:12 p.m.
Does pydecnet support IPv6 yet?
Mark
On Feb 25, 2020, at 9:01 AM, Keith Halewood
<Keith.Halewood at pitbulluk.org> wrote:
I have pydecnet running on raspberry pi 3b+
under raspbian with the bridge and tap support added. It does the job.
Keith
> On 25 Feb 2020, at 15:55, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net
<mailto:paulkoning at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> ?
>
>>> On Feb 25, 2020, at 10:40 AM, Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com>
wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On
Behalf Of Paul Koning
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 6:53 AM
>>> To: hecnet at update.uu.se
>>> Subject: Re: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Paul Koning [paulkoning at comcast.net] wrote:
>>>
>>> There was, but I think Python recently dropped VMS support due to lack of a
maintainer.
>>
>> Dropped VMS or dropped VAX? There was a Python for AXP (although I don't
know if it's still supported) but I don't think there was for VAX.
>>
>> How do people who use your router typically run it? Do they run it on Linux?
>
> Linux or Mac, including at least one example on Linux on a z/390, and another on
Beaglebone Black. But the point of the exercise was to create code that would run,
unchanged, on anything that supports Python. For example, while I avoid Windows if at all
possible, it certainly should run there without trouble. Or NetBSD, to pick just one
other random example.
>
>>> TOPS-10 is Phase IV, right? Any of the common DECnet implementations should
talk to that.
>>
>> TOPS-10 v7.04 (or maybe 7.05) is Phase IV. That's good news - I've
wanted to set up a TOPS-10 simulation, but running a simh780 just to route DECnet for the
DMR on TOPS-10 was not attractive.
>>
>> I'd rather have TOPS-20 but as you say TOPS-20 on simh with networking is not
very practical.
>
> It does work well enough that I was able use it to verify Phase II support. I plan
to add intercept support for talking to non-adjacent nodes, but that isn't in yet. A
primitive version is easy, a proper version is quite a lot harder.
>
> paul
8:57 p.m.
On Feb 25, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Mark Berryman <mark
at theberrymans.com> wrote:
Does pydecnet support IPv6 yet?
Mark
Not yet. My home network isn't quite IPv6-friendly enough for comfort, though I can
test it with link-local addresses. It doesn't seem all that hard.
I figure the way to do it is like some existing bilingual applications like ssh, which try
both if available, or just one if -4 or -6 is specified or if the destination is an
address rather than name.
One obvious question is what other implementations I could talk to using IPv6.
paul
9:21 p.m.
What kind of Phase II node did you test against??? I'm not aware of many.
A VERY long time ago (late 1970's), DEC managed to get Columbia to test
something called a DN200, which was a DECnet based RJE station.? As it
was far more expensive than a serial line based printer, we never bought
it (but never seemed to return it, either).
The vestigial code in LPTSPL is still there, called NURD (Network Unit
Record Devices) which I was able to adapt to get our 20's to print to
each either.? Basically I wrote a little server (called LSRV) that
emulated the NURD interface well enough.? Then I lobotomized some
strategic parts of the spooler not to notice the difference.? Saved us a
couple of thousand dollars on line printers in the machine room.
As I recall, that was a Phase II node which downloaded it's code from
the 20.? Or maybe it was the version of MCB DN20's we had at the time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 2/25/20 10:53 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
It does work well enough that I was able use it to verify _Phase II_
support. I plan to add intercept support for talking to non-adjacent nodes, but that
isn't in yet. A primitive version is easy, a proper version is quite a lot harder.
paul
9:28 p.m.
On Feb 25, 2020, at 3:21 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
What kind of Phase II node did you test against?? I'm not aware of many.
TOPS-20, supplied by one of the participants on this list. I don't know TOPS-20 at
all, but I was given just enough necessary magic to start it and run basic tests.
paul
5:33 p.m.
Bob,
I can't speak to Tops-10 with much authority any more, but I believe
that in order to get the Phase IV support in Tops-20, you have to be
running version 5 or, more likely, version 6 or 7.? All of these require
a KL class machine due to the requirement for extended addressing.
When I last checked, SIMH was 'only' capable of emulating the KA, KI and
KS PDP-10 processors, none of which will support more than a 256K
virtual code space.? I believe MRC was able to fit version 5 into the
KS, but those sources are not currently available (in fact, they may be
lost).
But, as he frequently said, the KL is only 'reasonable' processor as it
has 23 bit virtual address space, which puts you into the megabyte
range.? Later processors have a 30 bit address space, which gets you a
gigabyte address space.? That's plenty of space unless you are doing
multimedia.
Thus, your only reasonable alternative is the KLH10 emulator which will
do Phase IV over Ethernet and the CI.? It is superior to SIMH in certain
respects as it has a multi-threaded model where devices can and do run
concurrently to the processors.? However, certain things remain either
unimplemented (such as the CI) or minimally implemented.
This is relevant because the DECSYSTEM-20 architecture had a KL
surrounded by up to four PDP-11's, one of which ran the DECnet code
(branded a DN20).? These handled synchronous communications and did the
DDCMP.? The problem is that the interface between the KL and the PDP-11,
called a DTE for Data-Ten-to-Eleven, implementation is minimal.? This
would need to be fleshed out both for KLH10 and SIMH and some sort of
data path agreed to (one assumes UDP).? Then you could boot the DN20
code (I forget the internal name, maybe MCB) and have DDCMP from Tops-20.
Sounds like fun, but an extensive amount of it...
??? ??? --T
On 2/25/20 10:40 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of
Paul Koning
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 6:53 AM
To: hecnet at update.uu.se
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
Paul Koning [paulkoning at comcast.net] wrote:
There was, but I think Python recently dropped VMS support due to lack of a maintainer.
Dropped VMS or dropped VAX? There was a Python for AXP (although I don't
know if it's still supported) but I don't think there was for VAX.
How do people who use your router typically run it? Do they run it on Linux?
TOPS-10 is Phase IV, right? Any of the common
DECnet implementations should talk to that.
TOPS-10 v7.04 (or maybe 7.05) is
Phase IV. That's good news - I've wanted to set up a TOPS-10 simulation, but
running a simh780 just to route DECnet for the DMR on TOPS-10 was not attractive.
I'd rather have TOPS-20 but as you say TOPS-20 on simh with networking is not very
practical.
Bob
7:38 p.m.
Mine has been built to be portable (it is in C). I have it running on
Windows, Debian and FreeBSD. I have not tried on VMS, but I did do a partial
port to VAXELN. I don't foresee great difficulties getting it to run on VMS.
It looks like I may have done some partial VMS work, but it has been a while
since I looked. I could look into reviving/continuing that if there is
interest.
Mine won't talk to TOPS10/20, yet. I started something on that too if I
remember correctly, I did build a DDCMP implementation which I think
partially worked. I think I foundered on just getting DECnet running on
TOPS20 on SIMH, I did some work with Mark Pizzolato and Timothe Litt to
build a KDP emulation, but I struggled to keep up with them and gave up in
the end. I am not sure where that went.
I need a bit of time to work out what my status is I think as it has been a
while.
Regards
Rob
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf Of
Robert Armstrong
Sent: 25 February 2020 14:42
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
What are the alternatives for bridging DECnet systems across the Internet
that don't require any special hardware and can be self hosted on
OpenVMS/VAX?
I'm aware of Paul's Python router, but I didn't think it ran on a VAX. Am
I wrong about that? Is there a Python for OpenVMS/VAX? I believe there's a
port for AXP but I didn't know about one for VAX.
And I saw Rob mentioned his user mode DECnet router. Same questions -
what environment does that require? And I saw mention it being both
Multinet and simh DDCMp compatible - will it talk to a simh KS10/TOPS10/DMR
?
Bob
9:14 p.m.
What issues had you encountered talking to Tops-20??
If you are using the SIMH emulator for a KS processor, then the latest
version of Tops-20 you can run is 4.2, which I believe will do Phase
III.? Since there was never any Ethernet adapter for the KS (it was a
massbus device), I believe you must speak DDCMP, which we used with
KMC's, which would do 56Kbs.? There was a slower adaptor for 9.6Kbs, but
the name escapes me at the moment.
I've had little trouble with Tops-20 V7 DECnet; that is, once I got it
to working.? When I was modifying FAL/DAP to accept anonymous transfers,
I and and others beat on it quite a lot to wring the bugs out.? These
regression tests were against another 20, RSX 11M+ (or whatever MIM:: is
running) and a couple of Vaxen.? The operating system level code was
robust; no crashes.
We found some interesting bugs; I think my favorite was RSX wanting all
capital letters for months and Tops-20 sending capitalized months, so
file dates got messed up.? There were others, but they took some effort
to remediate; so, not so favorite...
On 2/25/20 1:38 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Mine has been built to be portable (it is in C). I have it running on
Windows, Debian and FreeBSD. I have not tried on VMS, but I did do a
partial port to VAXELN. I don?t foresee great difficulties getting it
to run on VMS. It looks like I may have done some partial VMS work,
but it has been a while since I looked. I could look into
reviving/continuing that if there is interest.
Mine won?t talk to TOPS10/20, yet. I started something on that too if
I remember correctly, I did build a DDCMP implementation which I think
partially worked. I think I foundered on just getting DECnet running
on TOPS20 on SIMH, I did some work with Mark Pizzolato and Timothe
Litt to build a KDP emulation, but I struggled to keep up with them
and gave up in the end. I am not sure where that went.
I need a bit of time to work out what my status is I think as it has
been a while.
Regards
Rob
*From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> *On
Behalf Of *Robert Armstrong
*Sent:* 25 February 2020 14:42
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Subject:* [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
?? What are the alternatives for bridging DECnet systems across the
Internet that don?t require any special hardware and can be self
hosted on OpenVMS/VAX?
? I?m aware of Paul?s Python router, but I didn?t think it ran on a
VAX.? Am I wrong about that?? Is there a Python for OpenVMS/VAX?? I
believe there?s a port for AXP but I didn?t know about one for VAX.
? And I saw Rob mentioned his user mode DECnet router.? Same questions
? what environment does that require?? ?And I saw mention it being
both Multinet and simh DDCMp compatible ? will it talk to a simh
KS10/TOPS10/DMR ?
Bob
26 Feb
26 Feb
12:50 p.m.
I can't remember now what the problems were, but I think I had problems
getting Phase III running on SIMH with the KMC or KDP (or whatever it was).
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf Of
Thomas DeBellis
Sent: 25 February 2020 20:14
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
What issues had you encountered talking to Tops-20??
If you are using the SIMH emulator for a KS processor, then the latest
version of Tops-20 you can run is 4.2, which I believe will do Phase III.
Since there was never any Ethernet adapter for the KS (it was a massbus
device), I believe you must speak DDCMP, which we used with KMC's, which
would do 56Kbs. There was a slower adaptor for 9.6Kbs, but the name escapes
me at the moment.
I've had little trouble with Tops-20 V7 DECnet; that is, once I got it to
working. When I was modifying FAL/DAP to accept anonymous transfers, I and
and others beat on it quite a lot to wring the bugs out. These regression
tests were against another 20, RSX 11M+ (or whatever MIM:: is running) and a
couple of Vaxen. The operating system level code was robust; no crashes.
We found some interesting bugs; I think my favorite was RSX wanting all
capital letters for months and Tops-20 sending capitalized months, so file
dates got messed up. There were others, but they took some effort to
remediate; so, not so favorite...
On 2/25/20 1:38 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Mine has been built to be portable (it is in C). I have it running on
Windows, Debian and FreeBSD. I have not tried on VMS, but I did do a partial
port to VAXELN. I don't foresee great difficulties getting it to run on VMS.
It looks like I may have done some partial VMS work, but it has been a while
since I looked. I could look into reviving/continuing that if there is
interest.
Mine won't talk to TOPS10/20, yet. I started something on that too if I
remember correctly, I did build a DDCMP implementation which I think
partially worked. I think I foundered on just getting DECnet running on
TOPS20 on SIMH, I did some work with Mark Pizzolato and Timothe Litt to
build a KDP emulation, but I struggled to keep up with them and gave up in
the end. I am not sure where that went.
I need a bit of time to work out what my status is I think as it has been a
while.
Regards
Rob
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
<mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf
Of
Robert Armstrong
Sent: 25 February 2020 14:42
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
What are the alternatives for bridging DECnet systems across the Internet
that don't require any special hardware and can be self hosted on
OpenVMS/VAX?
I'm aware of Paul's Python router, but I didn't think it ran on a VAX. Am
I wrong about that? Is there a Python for OpenVMS/VAX? I believe there's a
port for AXP but I didn't know about one for VAX.
And I saw Rob mentioned his user mode DECnet router. Same questions -
what environment does that require? And I saw mention it being both
Multinet and simh DDCMp compatible - will it talk to a simh KS10/TOPS10/DMR
?
Bob
2:15 p.m.
I managed to get the KLH10 emulator compiled and running the Panda distribution of TOPS-20
under Raspbian on a Pi 4 without too much trouble. Its 'dpni20' process has no
trouble talking to a TAP device which is bridged with eth0 and thence onto the mixed
in-memory/real-ethernet DECnet connection to the HECnet. Admittedly, I'm not that
familiar with TOPS-20 or the 'hardware' on which it runs. My main interest was MDL
at the time. It's still running as WALACH on the HECnet. My main 'take-away'
from the experience was: "HOW many questions do I have to answer in order to create a
directory on this thing??"
On the SIMH side of things, I'm a bit stuck getting TOPS-10 running from the DO
scripts from the URL.... [I appear to have misplaced this bit of information]
Keith
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Rob
Jarratt
Sent: 26 February 2020 11:51
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
I can't remember now what the problems were, but I think I had problems getting Phase
III running on SIMH with the KMC or KDP (or whatever it was).
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE<mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
<owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE<mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>> On Behalf
Of Thomas DeBellis
Sent: 25 February 2020 20:14
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE<mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
What issues had you encountered talking to Tops-20??
If you are using the SIMH emulator for a KS processor, then the latest version of Tops-20
you can run is 4.2, which I believe will do Phase III. Since there was never any Ethernet
adapter for the KS (it was a massbus device), I believe you must speak DDCMP, which we
used with KMC's, which would do 56Kbs. There was a slower adaptor for 9.6Kbs, but the
name escapes me at the moment.
I've had little trouble with Tops-20 V7 DECnet; that is, once I got it to working.
When I was modifying FAL/DAP to accept anonymous transfers, I and and others beat on it
quite a lot to wring the bugs out. These regression tests were against another 20, RSX
11M+ (or whatever MIM:: is running) and a couple of Vaxen. The operating system level
code was robust; no crashes.
We found some interesting bugs; I think my favorite was RSX wanting all capital letters
for months and Tops-20 sending capitalized months, so file dates got messed up. There
were others, but they took some effort to remediate; so, not so favorite...
On 2/25/20 1:38 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Mine has been built to be portable (it is in C). I have it running on Windows, Debian and
FreeBSD. I have not tried on VMS, but I did do a partial port to VAXELN. I don't
foresee great difficulties getting it to run on VMS. It looks like I may have done some
partial VMS work, but it has been a while since I looked. I could look into
reviving/continuing that if there is interest.
Mine won't talk to TOPS10/20, yet. I started something on that too if I remember
correctly, I did build a DDCMP implementation which I think partially worked. I think I
foundered on just getting DECnet running on TOPS20 on SIMH, I did some work with Mark
Pizzolato and Timothe Litt to build a KDP emulation, but I struggled to keep up with them
and gave up in the end. I am not sure where that went.
I need a bit of time to work out what my status is I think as it has been a while.
Regards
Rob
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE<mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
<owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE><mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf
Of Robert Armstrong
Sent: 25 February 2020 14:42
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE<mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
Subject: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
What are the alternatives for bridging DECnet systems across the Internet that
don't require any special hardware and can be self hosted on OpenVMS/VAX?
I'm aware of Paul's Python router, but I didn't think it ran on a VAX. Am I
wrong about that? Is there a Python for OpenVMS/VAX? I believe there's a port for
AXP but I didn't know about one for VAX.
And I saw Rob mentioned his user mode DECnet router. Same questions - what environment
does that require? And I saw mention it being both Multinet and simh DDCMp compatible -
will it talk to a simh KS10/TOPS10/DMR ?
Bob
9:04 p.m.
You're quite right, Tops-20 directory creation /is/ a pain in the neck
to the modern user.
However, a Tops-20 directory is a _very_ different beast than what you
would see in other operating systems.? It was a different time with
different costs.? Under DOS, Unix (all flavors), OS/2, Windows and IBM
z/OS (nee MVS) a directory is simply a place to put files.? So you say
make me a directory and /poof/, you're a directory.
Under Tops-20, directories have far richer semantics.? First of all,
they are the store of record for login credentials, which is quite
different from all the above and Tops-10, as well.? If you create a
directory--/anywhere/--and it is not FILES-ONLY and it has a password,
then you have just created a user. Furthermore connecting to a directory
is in no way like doing a CD.? Once you are connected, you have the same
rights as the owner and can use these rights to access files in other
directories that the owner has rights to.? Group management is superior
to Unix in that a directory can both be in multiple groups and provide
multiple groups.? It allows for far greater granularity.? Disk usage is
carefully kept track of.? However, management of all of it requires
special administrative capabilities to be given.
All of this was necessary in the days of machines have 10's of thousands
of users with strapped storage; I believe the default at Columbia for
undergraduates was 100 pages (about 350 KB) permanent storage and 1,000
working.? You've got to do things like that when all you can squeeze
into the machine room is a couple of gigabytes worth of disk drives.?
The careful group management was necessary to keep the more inquisitive
students from interfering with others' activities.? We needed special
programs to manage all the accounts, the groups and the storage.? Most
sites had home grown software like this and Columbia's was pretty nifty.
The only thing lacking was the ability for a user to create their own
sub-directory.? I began looking at this by sketching out an IPCF% based
client server paradigm.? The user would run a client to create the
directory and then the server would do all the automatic nice things.?
It grew to be quite complex as it had to go recursive to grab storage
from superior directories' allocation and then it would have had to
interface into the group management system to request groups for the
user to access the subdirectories.? I gave up when the line was
cancelled and we went to Sun SPARC.
Non-DEC versions of Tops-20 (such as Stanford and PANDA) implement
something called super-domestic structures where the user can always
access their subdirectories.? A limited version of relative directory
naming (viz, ./., ../) was implemented, also.? Columbia's group
management software was intelligent and flexible enough that we never
needed to use the super-domestic code.
Structure (and tape) mounts are also a very different thing, but that's
another story.
Maybe I'll look at it again after I finish my DAP changes and the new
FTP server.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 2/26/20 8:15 AM, Keith Halewood wrote:
I managed to get the KLH10 emulator compiled and running the Panda
distribution of TOPS-20 under Raspbian on a Pi 4 without too much
trouble. Its ?dpni20? process has no trouble talking to a TAP device
which is bridged with eth0 and thence onto the mixed
in-memory/real-ethernet DECnet connection to the HECnet. Admittedly,
I?m not that familiar with TOPS-20 or the ?hardware? on which it runs.
My main interest was MDL at the time. It?s still running as WALACH on
the HECnet. My main ?take-away? from the experience was: ?HOW many
questions do I have to answer in order to create a directory on this
thing???
On the SIMH side of things, I?m a bit stuck getting TOPS-10 running
from the DO scripts from the URL?. [I appear to have misplaced this
bit of information]
Keith
*From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE]
*On Behalf Of *Rob Jarratt
*Sent:* 26 February 2020 11:51
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Subject:* RE: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
I can?t remember now what the problems were, but I think I had
problems getting Phase III running on SIMH with the KMC or KDP (or
whatever it was).
*From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
<owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>> *On
Behalf Of *Thomas DeBellis
*Sent:* 25 February 2020 20:14
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
*Subject:* Re: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
What issues had you encountered talking to Tops-20??
If you are using the SIMH emulator for a KS processor, then the latest
version of Tops-20 you can run is 4.2, which I believe will do Phase
III.? Since there was never any Ethernet adapter for the KS (it was a
massbus device), I believe you must speak DDCMP, which we used with
KMC's, which would do 56Kbs.? There was a slower adaptor for 9.6Kbs,
but the name escapes me at the moment.
I've had little trouble with Tops-20 V7 DECnet; that is, once I got it
to working.? When I was modifying FAL/DAP to accept anonymous
transfers, I and and others beat on it quite a lot to wring the bugs
out.? These regression tests were against another 20, RSX 11M+ (or
whatever MIM:: is running) and a couple of Vaxen.? The operating
system level code was robust; no crashes.
We found some interesting bugs; I think my favorite was RSX wanting
all capital letters for months and Tops-20 sending capitalized months,
so file dates got messed up.? There were others, but they took some
effort to remediate; so, not so favorite...
On 2/25/20 1:38 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Mine has been built to be portable (it is in C). I have it running
on Windows, Debian and FreeBSD. I have not tried on VMS, but I did
do a partial port to VAXELN. I don?t foresee great difficulties
getting it to run on VMS. It looks like I may have done some
partial VMS work, but it has been a while since I looked. I could
look into reviving/continuing that if there is interest.
Mine won?t talk to TOPS10/20, yet. I started something on that too
if I remember correctly, I did build a DDCMP implementation which
I think partially worked. I think I foundered on just getting
DECnet running on TOPS20 on SIMH, I did some work with Mark
Pizzolato and Timothe Litt to build a KDP emulation, but I
struggled to keep up with them and gave up in the end. I am not
sure where that went.
I need a bit of time to work out what my status is I think as it
has been a while.
Regards
Rob
*From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE
<mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
<mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> *On Behalf Of *Robert Armstrong
*Sent:* 25 February 2020 14:42
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
*Subject:* [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
?? What are the alternatives for bridging DECnet systems across
the Internet that don?t require any special hardware and can be
self hosted on OpenVMS/VAX?
? I?m aware of Paul?s Python router, but I didn?t think it ran on
a VAX.? Am I wrong about that?? Is there a Python for
OpenVMS/VAX?? I believe there?s a port for AXP but I didn?t know
about one for VAX.
? And I saw Rob mentioned his user mode DECnet router.? Same
questions ? what environment does that require?? ?And I saw
mention it being both Multinet and simh DDCMp compatible ? will it
talk to a simh KS10/TOPS10/DMR ?
Bob
4:36 p.m.
On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 10:39 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Mine won't talk to TOPS10/20, yet. I started
something on that too if I remember
correctly, I did build a DDCMP implementation which I think partially worked.
I think I foundered on just getting DECnet running on TOPS20 on SIMH,
I did some work with Mark Pizzolato and Timothe Litt to build a KDP emulation,
but I struggled to keep up with them and gave up in the end. I am not sure where
that went.
It was your initial work that inspired Tim's complete KDP work (OS DDCMP
implementation) and the full fledged DDCMP in the DMC/DMR devices on the
Unibus PDP and VAX simulators. To the extent that either of these devices had
OS support in TOPS10/20 they will work fine with whatever version of DECnet
that used them.
- Mark
8:36 p.m.
If they have any support at all, it will be with the KS processor (I.E.,
the 2020), which used the Unibus for I/O.? The other devices used
Massbus, with two different I/O controllers (RH10/RH20).? I don't
immediately recall KDP support in any of my sources, but I'm at 7 while
the KS is at 4.2.
Otherwise, personally, I think it would be a cool idea for SIMH to have
full support for DTE's and be able to boot MCB which would then handle
DDCMP just fine.? Tops-20 still has code to handle messages coming from
a DN20, however I seem to recall that it (the DN20) is limited to Phase
III traffic whereas the PDP-10 will do Phase IV (via the NI).? Not sure
what kind? routing for all this could be done.
At one point, Tops-20 DECnet appears to have had support for using X.25,
but I don't know anything more about it.? We never used it.
On 2/26/20 10:36 AM, Mark Pizzolato wrote:
On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 10:39 AM, Rob Jarratt
wrote:
Mine won't talk to TOPS10/20, yet. I started
something on that too if I remember
correctly, I did build a DDCMP implementation which I think partially worked.
I think I foundered on just getting DECnet running on TOPS20 on SIMH,
I did some work with Mark Pizzolato and Timothe Litt to build a KDP emulation,
but I struggled to keep up with them and gave up in the end. I am not sure where
that went.
It was your initial work that inspired Tim's complete KDP work (OS
DDCMP
implementation) and the full fledged DDCMP in the DMC/DMR devices on the
Unibus PDP and VAX simulators. To the extent that either of these devices had
OS support in TOPS10/20 they will work fine with whatever version of DECnet
that used them.
- Mark
9:44 p.m.
Thomas DeBellis [tommytimesharing at gmail.com]
wrote:
Otherwise, personally, I think it would be a cool idea for SIMH to have
full support for DTE's ...
That's the problem - the KS never had DTEs, not even close, and simh only emulates a
KS10. The only way out is to emulate a KL, and that's a big job. KLH10 already does
that pretty well, and I don't think simh will ever acquire KL emulation.
The other issue with the KS was that it was limited to two sections (512KW) of memory,
and that's pretty much a show stopper for all later versions of TOPS20.
It runs TOPS10 fairly well, though.
Bob
10:01 p.m.
KL simulation for Simh is on its way by Rich Cornwall and at last check
it's only a few months out. He already has a KI simulator but I am not sure
what that will do as far as TOPS20.
Ray
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020, 3:44 PM Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> wrote:
Thomas
DeBellis [tommytimesharing at gmail.com] wrote:
Otherwise, personally, I think it would be a cool idea for SIMH to have
full support for DTE's ...
That's the problem - the KS never had DTEs, not even close, and simh
only emulates a KS10. The only way out is to emulate a KL, and that's a
big job. KLH10 already does that pretty well, and I don't think simh will
ever acquire KL emulation.
The other issue with the KS was that it was limited to two sections
(512KW) of memory, and that's pretty much a show stopper for all later
versions of TOPS20.
It runs TOPS10 fairly well, though.
Bob
11:49 p.m.
Not much, regretfully.? Tops-20 was first brought up on a KI processor
as a port from BBN TENEX which used a considerably more sophisticated
page box.? I don't believe it was ever productized and these sources are
believed lost.
By and large, a KI used some different hardware than a KL (the RH20
comes to mind) although they could and did share a great deal of equipment.
You would likely have never seen a DTE on a KS processor; there was no
need and no PDP-11 processor.? The KS addressed the Unibus directly.? A
DTE was found on PDP-11's (I think 11/34's and 11/40's) to connect them
to KL-10's.? One side was unibus based and the other connected to the KL
(I don't recall whether it was massbus based).? You could have
theoretically used a DTE to connect a KS to a KL, but I don't believe
this was ever done.
One assumes that SIMH could emulate the unibus side of the DTE interface
for the PDP-11, perhaps encapsulating the packets and sending them to a
KLH10 based DTE via IP datagrams.? You could bring up a nice bit of
software, IBM HASP multileaving comes to mind and perhaps an AN20.
Although he really loved it, MRC had a lot of comments about the KL.? It
is a difficult beast to emulate; the page box is far more complex than
the KI (although by no means as complex as the BBN page box).? There are
meters and a bunch of other things.? The KL-B class extended addressing
complicates things too.
On 2/26/20 4:01 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote:
KL simulation for Simh is on its way by Rich Cornwall
and at last
check it's only a few months out. He already has a KI simulator but I
am not sure what that will do as far as TOPS20.
Ray
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020, 3:44 PM Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com
<mailto:bob at jfcl.com>> wrote:
Thomas DeBellis [tommytimesharing at gmail.com
<mailto:tommytimesharing at gmail.com>] wrote:
Otherwise, personally, I think it would be a cool
idea for SIMH
to have
full support for DTE's ...
? That's the problem - the KS never had DTEs, not even close, and
simh only emulates a KS10.? The only way out is to emulate a KL,
and that's a big job.? KLH10 already does that pretty well, and I
don't think simh will ever acquire KL emulation.
? The other issue with the KS was that it was limited to two
sections (512KW) of memory, and that's pretty much a show stopper
for all later versions of TOPS20.
? It runs TOPS10 fairly well, though.
Bob
27 Feb
27 Feb
12:10 a.m.
You would likely have never seen a DTE on a KS
processor ?
The DTEs plugged into dedicated slots on the KL. There's no way you could have ever
seen one on another model CPU - it's physically not possible. The KL could hold up to
four DTEs, and the first one was "special" in that it could poke around in the
KLs microstore and internal datapaths. The 11/40 CFE was connected to that one and
that's how the KL was started up. All the microcode was stored in RAM and immediately
after a power on the KL was little more than a big heater. The other three DTEs were more
general purpose and were used for communications interfaces.
There was, however, a DL10 for the KI that interfaced up to four PDP-11s to the I/O and
memory busses. Conceptually the DL10 was similar to the DTE, although I don't know
how close they were programmatically. Of course there was no equivalent to the CFE on the
KI and all four -11 ports on the DL10 were identical. And where as every KL had at least
one DTE for the CFE, the DL10 was strictly optional.
It's a similar story for the RH20s - they were dedicated options for the KL only. A
KL could have a maximum of 4 RH20s and every one needed at least two - one for disk and
one for tape. Although I believe on TOPS10 you could mix disk and tape on the same
MASSBUS - maybe, I'm not sure about that.
And likewise there was an RH10 MASSBUS controller for the KI which was similar to, but
not the same as, the RH20.
Bob
12:15 a.m.
Hum. I seem to remeber that the max number of RH20 was eight. However two were lost if you
had a NIA-20 and two were lost if you had a CI.
But I might be misremembering.
Johnny
Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> skrev: (27 februari 2020 00:10:22 CET)
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
You would
likely have never seen a DTE on a KS processor ?
The DTEs plugged into dedicated slots on the KL. There's no way you
could have ever seen one on another model CPU - it's physically not
possible. The KL could hold up to four DTEs, and the first one was
"special" in that it could poke around in the KLs microstore and
internal datapaths. The 11/40 CFE was connected to that one and that's
how the KL was started up. All the microcode was stored in RAM and
immediately after a power on the KL was little more than a big heater.
The other three DTEs were more general purpose and were used for
communications interfaces.
There was, however, a DL10 for the KI that interfaced up to four
PDP-11s to the I/O and memory busses. Conceptually the DL10 was
similar to the DTE, although I don't know how close they were
programmatically. Of course there was no equivalent to the CFE on the
KI and all four -11 ports on the DL10 were identical. And where as
every KL had at least one DTE for the CFE, the DL10 was strictly
optional.
It's a similar story for the RH20s - they were dedicated options for
the KL only. A KL could have a maximum of 4 RH20s and every one needed
at least two - one for disk and one for tape. Although I believe on
TOPS10 you could mix disk and tape on the same MASSBUS - maybe, I'm not
sure about that.
And likewise there was an RH10 MASSBUS controller for the KI which was
similar to, but not the same as, the RH20.
Bob
12:26 a.m.
Nope, you got it exactly right.? 8 RH20's; 1 for the NI, 2 for the CI
and 5 for mortal men.
On 2/26/20 6:15 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Hum. I seem to remeber that the max number of RH20 was
eight. However
two were lost if you had a NIA-20 and two were lost if you had a CI.
But I might be misremembering.
Johnny
Robert Armstrong <bob at jfcl.com> skrev: (27 februari 2020 00:10:22 CET)
You would likely have never seen a DTE on a KS processor ?
The DTEs plugged into dedicated slots on the KL. There's no way you could
have ever seen one on another model CPU - it's physically not possible. The KL could
hold up to four DTEs, and the first one was "special" in that it could poke
around in the KLs microstore and internal datapaths. The 11/40 CFE was connected to that
one and that's how the KL was started up. All the microcode was stored in RAM and
immediately after a power on the KL was little more than a big heater. The other three
DTEs were more general purpose and were used for communications interfaces.
There was, however, a DL10 for the KI that interfaced up to four PDP-11s to the
I/O and memory busses. Conceptually the DL10 was similar to the DTE, although I don't
know how close they were programmatically. Of course there was no equivalent to the CFE
on the KI and all four -11 ports on the DL10 were identical. And where as every KL had at
least one DTE for the CFE, the DL10 was strictly optional.
It's a similar story for the RH20s - they were dedicated options for the KL
only. A KL could have a maximum of 4 RH20s and every one needed at least two - one for
disk and one for tape. Although I believe on TOPS10 you could mix disk and tape on the
same MASSBUS - maybe, I'm not sure about that.
And likewise there was an RH10 MASSBUS controller for the KI which was similar to,
but not the same as, the RH20.
Bob
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
12:24 a.m.
Yes, I couldn't remember how the DTE was connected on the KL side other
than it did use PI.? It was unibus side that we had speculated about at
Columbia.? That theoretically could have been plugged into the KS
somewhere, but this was a conversation a long time ago with somebody who
was not an DEC FE.? It occurs that there may have been issues with 18
vs. 16 bit data paths.
I don't remember the maximum number of RH's being 4.? As far as I
recall, the maximum number of RH's for the KL is 8 and not four. Towards
end of life, slot 5 was occupied by the NI and slots 6 and 7 were
occupied by the CI which took two (I believe because of power
consumption reasons).? At Columbia, we kept our tape drives on slot 1
with the rest of the disks on slots 0, 2, 3 and 4.? Both the monitor
code and KLH10 assume a possibility for 8 RH20's.
I may have it backwards, but I thought it was Tops-10 that complained
about tape and disk devices being on the same channel. In any event,
that was nothing you wanted to do.? Having the disks and tape on
different channels allowed for concurrent I/O which meant you could
stream the tape drive.
The RH20 was different enough from the RH10 as to provoke a famous
saga--Tony in RH20 Land; you can pull this anonymously from VENTI2::.
I cannot for the life of me remember a blessed thing about a DL10.? Sigh...
On 2/26/20 6:10 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
You would
likely have never seen a DTE on a KS processor ?
The DTEs plugged into dedicated
slots on the KL. There's no way you could have ever seen one on another model CPU -
it's physically not possible. The KL could hold up to four DTEs, and the first one
was "special" in that it could poke around in the KLs microstore and internal
datapaths. The 11/40 CFE was connected to that one and that's how the KL was started
up. All the microcode was stored in RAM and immediately after a power on the KL was
little more than a big heater. The other three DTEs were more general purpose and were
used for communications interfaces.
There was, however, a DL10 for the KI that interfaced up to four PDP-11s to the I/O
and memory busses. Conceptually the DL10 was similar to the DTE, although I don't
know how close they were programmatically. Of course there was no equivalent to the CFE
on the KI and all four -11 ports on the DL10 were identical. And where as every KL had at
least one DTE for the CFE, the DL10 was strictly optional.
It's a similar story for the RH20s - they were dedicated options for the KL only.
A KL could have a maximum of 4 RH20s and every one needed at least two - one for disk and
one for tape. Although I believe on TOPS10 you could mix disk and tape on the same
MASSBUS - maybe, I'm not sure about that.
And likewise there was an RH10 MASSBUS controller for the KI which was similar to, but
not the same as, the RH20.
Bob
26 Feb
26 Feb
10:21 p.m.
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 12:44 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Rich Cornwell's simh KL10 is in the final stages of prep. You should see something
in the next few weeks.
- Mark
Thomas
DeBellis [tommytimesharing at gmail.com] wrote:
Otherwise, personally, I think it would be a cool idea for SIMH to have
full support for DTE's ...
That's the problem - the KS never had DTEs, not even close, and simh only
emulates a KS10. The only way out is to emulate a KL, and that's a big job.
KLH10 already does that pretty well, and I don't think simh will ever acquire KL
emulation.
10:33 p.m.
Rich Cornwell's simh KL10 is in the final stages of
prep. You should see something
in the next few weeks.
Really? I had no idea... Sounds like I am totally wrong about simh never emulating a
KL.
Will it also emulate a DTE so you can marry it to one or more PDP-11 simhs? I know
there was some talk of doing that for the PDP-15/76.
Bob
11:12 p.m.
That *is* interesting! I look forward to seeing this.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf
Of Mark Pizzolato
Sent: 26 February 2020 21:22
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: RE: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 12:44 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
job.
Thomas
DeBellis [tommytimesharing at gmail.com] wrote:
Otherwise, personally, I think it would be a cool idea for SIMH to
have full support for DTE's ...
That's the problem - the KS never had DTEs, not even close, and simh
only emulates a KS10. The only way out is to emulate a KL, and that's a big KLH10 already does that pretty well, and I
don't think simh will ever
acquire KL emulation.
Rich Cornwell's simh KL10 is in the final stages of prep. You should see
something in the next few weeks.
- Mark
2:55 a.m.
On 2020-02-25 15:42, Robert Armstrong wrote:
?? What are the alternatives for bridging DECnet
systems across the
Internet that don?t require any special hardware and can be self hosted
on OpenVMS/VAX?
There are only two I'm aware of.
Multinet giving you DECnet-over-IP, and DECnet phase V, which also can
transport DECnet over IP.
? I?m aware of Paul?s Python router, but I didn?t
think it ran on a
VAX.? Am I wrong about that?? Is there a Python for OpenVMS/VAX?? I
believe there?s a port for AXP but I didn?t know about one for VAX.
Available or not, I do not think it can route the machines own traffic.
? And I saw Rob mentioned his user mode DECnet
router.? Same questions
? what environment does that require?? ?And I saw mention it being both
Multinet and simh DDCMp compatible ? will it talk to a simh
KS10/TOPS10/DMR ?
Same problem about not being able to hook into the local machine traffic.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
12:46 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE> On Behalf
Of Johnny Billquist
Sent: 26 February 2020 01:56
To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE
Subject: Re: [HECnet] Multinet alternatives ...
On 2020-02-25 15:42, Robert Armstrong wrote:
Of course VMS has its own DECnet router anyway. So you just need to put one
network interface on the bridge and one on your LAN, then you don?t need
either Paul's or my router at all. If you just want to run a user mode
router on VMS for the heck of it then I think you are right, although I am
not sure if pcap would still deliver the packets to the user mode router. I
have not thought about this, but it could get confusing. But you could run a
user mode router on VMS if VMS machine itself was outside the DECnet
network.
Rob
?? What are the alternatives for bridging DECnet
systems across the
Internet that don?t require any special hardware and can be self
hosted on OpenVMS/VAX?
There are only two I'm aware of.
Multinet giving you DECnet-over-IP, and DECnet phase V, which also can
transport DECnet over IP.
? I?m aware of Paul?s Python router, but I
didn?t think it ran on a
VAX.? Am I wrong about that?? Is there a Python for OpenVMS/VAX?? I
believe there?s a port for AXP but I didn?t know about one for VAX.
Available or not, I do not think it can route the machines own traffic.
? And I saw Rob mentioned his user mode DECnet
router.? Same
questions ? what environment does that require?? ?And I saw mention it
being both Multinet and simh DDCMp compatible ? will it talk to a simh
KS10/TOPS10/DMR ?
Same problem about not being able to hook into the local machine traffic.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
1524
days inactive
1525
days old
30 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
bob＠jfcl.com -
bqt＠softjar.se -
drb＠msu.edu -
Keith.Halewood＠pitbulluk.org -
Mark＠infocomm.com -
mark＠theberrymans.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
raywjewhurst＠gmail.com -
robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com -
tommytimesharing＠gmail.com