11 Dec
2023
11 Dec
'23
2:28 a.m.
Hey folks. Does anyone have images of the RSX-11M v4.8 RK06/RK07
kit? I have the RL kit, but I would like to have the RK06/RK07 kit.
I think Oleg may have it, but my mail server doesn't seem to be
talking to his mail server.
Thanks,
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11 Dec
11 Dec
4:01 a.m.
On 2023-12-11 02:28, Dave McGuire wrote:
Hey folks. Does anyone have images of the RSX-11M v4.8 RK06/RK07
kit? I have the RL kit, but I would like to have the RK06/RK07 kit.
Not sure exactly what you are looking for here. The distribution as such
makes no difference. If you have it on tape, it installs on any type of
disk.
So are you looking for a distribution that was on disk in the first place?
Do you actually have a machine with RK06/RK07, which really makes it
absolutely necessary to have that media? In which case, you also need
someone to send you the actual disk packs? That might be a scary proposal...
If you have it on RL, then if you can just get things up and running,
you can certainly build a new system that boots and runs from an RK06/07.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
4:15 a.m.
On 12/10/23 22:01, Johnny Billquist wrote:
I have the tape image that's floating around. But see below.
Hey folks.
Does anyone have images of the RSX-11M v4.8 RK06/RK07
kit? I have the RL kit, but I would like to have the RK06/RK07 kit.
Not sure exactly what you are looking for here. The distribution as such
makes no difference. If you have it on tape, it installs on any type of
disk. So are you looking for a distribution that was on disk
in the first place?
Do you actually have a machine with RK06/RK07, which really makes it
absolutely necessary to have that media? In which case, you also need
someone to send you the actual disk packs? That might be a scary
proposal...
LSSM has several machines with RK07s, and I have one at home. We
have a great many RK07 disk packs. (like 40 or 50)
If you have it on RL, then if you can just get things
up and running,
you can certainly build a new system that boots and runs from an RK06/07.
Yes, I've done that. But is it not the case that the sysgen command
procedures are different for the different disk distributions, due to
the way the files are broken up between volumes? The v4.8 RL
distribution specifically asks for the different volumes on DL1: and DL2:.
For instance, on my first PDP-11 back in the 1980s, I had an RSX-11M
v4.2 distribution tape that was "the RL kit" that restored onto five (or
was it four) RL01 packs, and you booted the first one and ran your
sysgen. But there was also the "big disk kit" which would run on any
single disk that was big enough.
So I'm under the impression that the different kits, for different
types of disks, have different sysgen scripts for the way the files are
split amongst the volumes when restored from tape.
SO, what makes it necessary to have that media is the ability to run
a sysgen on a system running on an RK07 disk. I've created a 4.8 system
disk on RL02s and copied it to an RK07 pack, but now I'd like to do a
sysgen (adding hardware) and the sysgen scripts are asking for RL packs
to be mounted, and there are no RL02s on that system.
I could add an RL02 to that system, temporarily, but that would make
a mess on the exhibit floor and we need to keep it in touring configuration.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
5:07 a.m.
On 2023-12-11 04:15, Dave McGuire wrote:
Oh. Ho ho... You're having fun, I see.
We're talking about the installation you did from tape to RL, right? In
which case, the same tape can be used to install to RK. Really.
If you look at the tape, it looks like this:
.mou mu3:/for
.bru /rew/dir mu3:
VOL1. DUSYS RSXM70 9-OCT-98 17:49:50
VOL1. DBSYS RSXM70 9-OCT-98 17:50:45
VOL1. DLSYS RSXM70 9-OCT-98 17:51:18
VOL1. DMSYS RSXM70 9-OCT-98 17:51:48
VOL1. DRSYS RSXM70 9-OCT-98 17:52:24
VOL1. RSXBAS RSXBAS 9-OCT-98 17:55:17
VOL1. EXCPRV EXCPRV 9-OCT-98 18:03:10
VOL1. PRVBLD PRVBLD 9-OCT-98 18:09:01
VOL1. RLUTIL RLUTIL 9-OCT-98 18:13:39
VOL1. MCRSRC MCRSRC 9-OCT-98 18:25:05
VOL1. HLPDCL HLPDCL 9-OCT-98 18:34:47
VOL1. RMSV20 RMSV20 9-OCT-98 18:39:03
VOL1. F77 11M48LP 10-OCT-98 10:48:37
VOL1. BP2 11M48LP 10-OCT-98 10:59:40
VOL1. DTR 11M48LP 10-OCT-98 11:00:32
BRU - Completed
So when you install, you start by restoring the saveset that is for your
type of disk, so you get a bootable system. And then you boot that,
which brings in all the rest, which is the same no matter which disk.
On 12/10/23 22:01, Johnny Billquist wrote:
I have the tape image that's floating around. But see below.
Excellent! The tape distribution is the only one that exists. It's meant
for all different types of machines and disks.
Hey
folks. Does anyone have images of the RSX-11M v4.8 RK06/RK07
kit? I have the RL kit, but I would like to have the RK06/RK07 kit.
Not sure exactly what you are looking for here. The distribution as
such makes no difference. If you have it on tape, it installs on any
type of disk. So are you
looking for a distribution that was on disk in the first
place?
Do you actually have a machine with RK06/RK07, which really makes it
absolutely necessary to have that media? In which case, you also need
someone to send you the actual disk packs? That might be a scary
proposal...
LSSM has several machines with RK07s, and I have one at home. We
have a great many RK07 disk packs. (like 40 or 50) If you have it
on RL, then if you can just get things up and running,
you can certainly build a new system that boots and runs from an RK06/07.
Yes, I've done that. But is it not the case that the sysgen command
procedures are different for the different disk distributions, due to
the way the files are broken up between volumes? The v4.8 RL
distribution specifically asks for the different volumes on DL1: and DL2:. For instance, on my first PDP-11 back in the 1980s,
I had an RSX-11M
v4.2 distribution tape that was "the RL kit" that restored onto five (or
was it four) RL01 packs, and you booted the first one and ran your
sysgen. But there was also the "big disk kit" which would run on any
single disk that was big enough.
It's five RL02 packs. Seven if you have RL01.
But no, there aren't different "kits".
The trick is that if you look in the various xxSYS savesets, you'll see
that each contains the basic stuff needed to just boot and get something
running, and then it have two files placed in [200,200].
TAPEKIT.CMD is just the procedure to copy from tape to the desired disk.
It's identical in all distributions, but it's needed on this saveset
because it is the script used to copy everything else over.
SGNTYP.CMD is probably of more interest to you. It is different for each
type, and is then used to inform SYSGEN about what target disks it
should gear towards.
So I'm under the impression that the different
kits, for different
types of disks, have different sysgen scripts for the way the files are
split amongst the volumes when restored from tape.
Nope. It's not done that way. Just a single file with some parameters to
make SYSGEN behave differently for different targets. And the tape kit
have them all.
SO, what makes it necessary to have that media is
the ability to run
a sysgen on a system running on an RK07 disk. I've created a 4.8 system
disk on RL02s and copied it to an RK07 pack, but now I'd like to do a
sysgen (adding hardware) and the sysgen scripts are asking for RL packs
to be mounted, and there are no RL02s on that system.
The *simplest* way of doing this correctly would be to have a machine
with RK07 and tape. Then you just follow the manual and install from
scratch. I guess that option is not viable.
Second would be to just have the tape available, and restore the DMSYS
to your RK07, and then run TAPEKIT to pull the rest down from the tape
to that disk.
Third is if you don't have access to tape, and just have the disks.
Copying all the files over, and replace [200,200]SGNTYP.CMD should be
enough, I think.
The SGNTYP.CMD for DMSYS looks like this:
.type dm:[200,200]sgntyp.cmd
.;
.; SGNTYP.CMD - Command file to define type of distribution kit
.;
.; Symbol definitions for RK06/RK07 distribution kit
.ENABLE GLOBAL
.SETF $RL
.SETF $2RK
.SETT $BGDSK
.SETT $RK06
The DLSYS SGNTYP.CMD looks like this (for reference):
.type dl:[200,200]sgntyp.cmd
.;
.; SGNTYP.CMD - Command file to define type of distribution kit
.;
.; Symbol definitions for RL01/RL02 distribution kit
.ENABLE GLOBAL
.SETT $RL
.SETF $2RK
.SETF $BGDSK
.SETF $RK06
I could add an RL02 to that system, temporarily,
but that wouldmake
a mess on the exhibit floor and we need to keep it in touring
configuration.
So you must have managed to make the disk bootable. And you have all the
bits and pieces there, it sounds like. So I suspect it's all about just
tweaking this file then.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
5:13 a.m.
One small caveat. It's been many years since I last did a sysgen of 11M.
There is also [1,54]SGNPARAM.CMD. I think it just holds the information
of what was chosen for the last sysgen, but if you hit any more
problems, you probably want to check the differences of that file
between the different xxSYS savesets.
Johnny
On 2023-12-11 05:07, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2023-12-11 04:15, Dave McGuire wrote:
Oh. Ho ho... You're having fun, I see.
We're talking about the installation you did from tape to RL, right? In
which case, the same tape can be used to install to RK. Really.
If you look at the tape, it looks like this:
.mou mu3:/for
.bru /rew/dir mu3:
VOL1. DUSYS RSXM70 9-OCT-98 17:49:50
VOL1. DBSYS RSXM70 9-OCT-98 17:50:45
VOL1. DLSYS RSXM70 9-OCT-98 17:51:18
VOL1. DMSYS RSXM70 9-OCT-98 17:51:48
VOL1. DRSYS RSXM70 9-OCT-98 17:52:24
VOL1. RSXBAS RSXBAS 9-OCT-98 17:55:17
VOL1. EXCPRV EXCPRV 9-OCT-98 18:03:10
VOL1. PRVBLD PRVBLD 9-OCT-98 18:09:01
VOL1. RLUTIL RLUTIL 9-OCT-98 18:13:39
VOL1. MCRSRC MCRSRC 9-OCT-98 18:25:05
VOL1. HLPDCL HLPDCL 9-OCT-98 18:34:47
VOL1. RMSV20 RMSV20 9-OCT-98 18:39:03
VOL1. F77 11M48LP 10-OCT-98 10:48:37
VOL1. BP2 11M48LP 10-OCT-98 10:59:40
VOL1. DTR 11M48LP 10-OCT-98 11:00:32
BRU - Completed
So when you install, you start by restoring the saveset that is for your
type of disk, so you get a bootable system. And then you boot that,
which brings in all the rest, which is the same no matter which disk.
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
On 12/10/23 22:01, Johnny Billquist wrote:
I have the tape image that's floating around. But see below.
Excellent! The tape distribution is the only one that exists. It's meant
for all different types of machines and disks.
Hey
folks. Does anyone have images of the RSX-11Mv4.8 RK06/RK07
kit? I have the RL kit, but I would like to have the RK06/RK07kit.
Not sure exactly what you are looking for here. The distribution as
such makes no difference. If you have it on tape, it installs on any
type of disk. So are
you looking for a distribution that was on disk in the first
place?
Do you actually have a machine with RK06/RK07, which really makes it
absolutely necessary to have that media? In which case, you also need
someone to send you the actual disk packs? That might be a scary
proposal...
LSSM has several machines with RK07s, and I have one at home. We
have a great many RK07 disk packs. (like 40 or 50) If you
have it on RL, then if you can just get things up and running,
you can certainly build a new system that boots and runs from an
RK06/07.
Yes, I've done that. But is it not the case that the sysgen
command procedures are different for the different disk distributions,
due to the way the files are broken up between volumes? The v4.8RL
distribution specifically asks for the different volumes on DL1: and
DL2:. For instance, on my first PDP-11 back in the
1980s, I hadan
RSX-11M v4.2 distribution tape that was "the RL kit" that restored
onto five (or was it four) RL01 packs, and you booted the first one
and ran your sysgen. But there was also the "big disk kit" which
would run on any single disk that was big enough.
It's five RL02 packs. Seven if you have RL01.
But no, there aren't different "kits".
The trick is that if you look in the various xxSYS savesets, you'll see
that each contains the basic stuff needed to just boot and get something
running, and then it have two files placed in [200,200].
TAPEKIT.CMD is just the procedure to copy from tape to the desired disk.
It's identical in all distributions, but it's needed on this saveset
because it is the script used to copy everything else over.
SGNTYP.CMD is probably of more interest to you. It is different for each
type, and is then used to inform SYSGEN about what target disks it
should gear towards.
So I'm under the impression that the
different kits, for different
types of disks, have different sysgen scripts for the way the files
are split amongst the volumes when restored from tape.
Nope. It's not done that way. Just a single file with some parameters to
make SYSGEN behave differently for different targets. And the tape kit
have them all.
SO, what makes it necessary to have that media
is the ability to
run a sysgen on a system running on an RK07 disk. I've created a4.8
system disk on RL02s and copied it to an RK07 pack, but now I'd like
to do a sysgen (adding hardware) and the sysgen scripts are asking for
RL packs to be mounted, and there are no RL02s on that system.
The *simplest* way of doing this correctly would be to have a machine
with RK07 and tape. Then you just follow the manual and install from
scratch. I guess that option is not viable.
Second would be to just have the tape available, and restore the DMSYS
to your RK07, and then run TAPEKIT to pull the rest down from the tape
to that disk.
Third is if you don't have access to tape, and just have the disks.
Copying all the files over, and replace [200,200]SGNTYP.CMD should be
enough, I think.
The SGNTYP.CMD for DMSYS looks like this:
.type dm:[200,200]sgntyp.cmd
.;
.; SGNTYP.CMD - Command file to define type of distribution kit
.;
.; Symbol definitions for RK06/RK07 distribution kit
.ENABLE GLOBAL
.SETF $RL
.SETF $2RK
.SETT $BGDSK
.SETT $RK06
The DLSYS SGNTYP.CMD looks like this (for reference):
.type dl:[200,200]sgntyp.cmd
.;
.; SGNTYP.CMD - Command file to define type of distribution kit
.;
.; Symbol definitions for RL01/RL02 distribution kit
.ENABLE GLOBAL
.SETT $RL
.SETF $2RK
.SETF $BGDSK
.SETF $RK06
I could add an RL02 to that system,
temporarily, but thatwouldmake
a mess on the exhibit floor and we need to keep it in touring
configuration.
So you must have managed to make the disk bootable. And you have all the
bits and pieces there, it sounds like. So I suspect it's all about just
tweaking this file then.
Johnny
7:10 p.m.
On 12/10/23 23:07, Johnny Billquist wrote:
I have the tape image that's floating around. But see below.
Excellent! The tape distribution is the only one that exists. It's meant
for all different types of machines and disks.
Ok, this clears up a longstanding misconception of mine. At the
beginning of the sysgen run for 4.8 on one of my systems, it says
"RL01/RL02 distribution kit". And I have a printed log of my very first
RSX-11M sysgen (I had typed 4.2 last night, but now I remember it was
4.1) back in 1986, and it says "RL01/RL02 distribution kit". I had
assumed, back then, that that was all that was on the tape, meaning it
was RL-specific.
So it was 1986, and I had gotten my very first PDP-11, an 11/34 with
two RL01s. It came with an RSX-11M v4.1 distribution tape, but no tape
drive. I had a friend and DEC mentor (Jim Gonzalez of Omni Systems, if
you know of him) who lived about 2hrs north of me. I was 17 and
couldn't drive yet, so I talked my grandmother into driving me, along
with that tape and a stack of RL01 packs, up to his place. He was kind
enough to restore the tape onto the disk packs on one of his systems.
Then I took the packs home and ran sysgen on my system.
If you know the band Genesis, their album Invisible Touch had just
come out, and they did a tour associated with that album. I had
attended a concert in Philadelphia on that tour, and got one of the
concert T-shirts. Some days before that, I had been working on that
sysgen, and I was talking about it quite a lot at work, including with
Richard Gilbert, our lab's VMS sysadmin.
So when I came in to work the day after the concert, proudly wearing
my new Genesis T-shirt, Richard saw it and laughed, and said "That shirt
should really say GEN-A-SYS!"
Anyway, from back then I had assumed that the tape I had contained
only the RL01/RL02 distribution kit. I never (then or now) read the
sysgen command procedures.
A year or two later I added an RK07 drive to that system, but I
installed RSTS/E v9.4 on that, not RSX.
Anyway...more below.
Always. :-) But it is a lot of work. I've always had one or more
RK07s at home, but the museum environment at LSSM is more demanding.
Visitors expect things to be clean, buttoned up, and functional. It's
not quite a datacenter production environment, but it's closer to that
than my systems at home, where it doesn't matter if there are cables
hanging around everywhere.
...
I think the 4.1 system was actually six RL01s. (I typed 4.2 above,
but it was late last night...I now remember that it was 4.1) I remember
it because I had (and still have) some nice wire "stands" for RL packs,
each of which holds six packs, and I took a full one up to Jim Gonzalez'
place to have him restore that distribution tape on his system.
Hey folks.
Does anyone have images of the RSX-11M v4.8 RK06/RK07
kit? I have the RL kit, but I would like to have the RK06/RK07 kit.
Not sure exactly what you are looking for here. The distribution as
such makes no difference. If you have it on tape, it installs on any
type of disk. LSSM has
several machines with RK07s, and I have one at home. We
have a great many RK07 disk packs. (like 40 or 50)
Oh. Ho ho... You're having fun, I see. Yes,
I've done that. But is it not the case that the sysgen
command procedures are different for the different disk distributions,
due to the way the files are broken up between volumes? The v4.8 RL
distribution specifically asks for the different volumes on DL1: and
DL2:.
We're talking about the installation you did from tape to RL, right? In
which case, the same tape can be used to install to RK. Really.
If you look at the tape, it looks like this: So when you install, you start by restoring the
saveset that is for your
type of disk, so you get a bootable system. And then you boot that,
which brings in all the rest, which is the same no matter which disk.
Ok. I just did that under simh to explore it a bit. It is (of
course) as you say; this dispels my long-held misconception that I
mentioned above: There aren't separate tapes for the distributions.
Interesting!
For
instance, on my first PDP-11 back in the 1980s, I had an
RSX-11M v4.2 distribution tape that was "the RL kit" that restored
onto five (or was it four) RL01 packs, and you booted the first one
and ran your sysgen. But there was also the "big disk kit" which
would run on any single disk that was big enough.
It's five RL02 packs. Seven if you have RL01. SGNTYP.CMD is probably of more interest to you. It is
different for each
type, and is then used to inform SYSGEN about what target disks it
should gear towards.
And THAT is where the flags are set to tell SYSGEN what type of kit
is present, even though it's actually the same kit, just a change of the
behavior of the command procedure as directed by those flags. I see!
The *simplest* way of doing this correctly would be to
have a machine
with RK07 and tape. Then you just follow the manual and install from
scratch. I guess that option is not viable.
Second would be to just have the tape available, and restore the DMSYS
to your RK07, and then run TAPEKIT to pull the rest down from the tape
to that disk.
We don't have a functional tape drive on that system (an 11/50) right
now, so I may do all of this under simh and then copy the disk image
over. That's handy as then we'll have a clean backup of that system
disk, which is important for the museum environment in case someone
breaks something.
Thank you for clearing up my misconception!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
161
days inactive
161
days old
5 comments
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participants (2)
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Johnny Billquist