3 Jun
2022
3 Jun
'22
9:52 p.m.
Announcing the Open SIMH project
SIMH is a framework and family of computer simulators, initiated by Bob Supnik and
continued with contributions (large and small) from many others, with the primary goal of
enabling the preservation of knowledge contained in, and providing the ability to
execute/experience, old/historic software via simulation of the hardware on which it ran.
This goal has been successfully achieved and has for these years created a diverse
community of users and developers.
This has mapped to some core operational principles:
First, preserve the ability to run old/historically significant software. This means
functionally accurate, sometimes bug-compatible, but not cycle-accurate, simulation.
Second, make it reasonably easy to add new simulators for other hardware while leveraging
common functions between the simulators.
Third, exploit the software nature of simulation and make SIMH convenient for debugging a
simulated system, by adding non-historical features to the environment.
Fourth, make it convenient for users to explore old system environments, with as close to
historical interfaces, by mapping them to new features that modern host operating systems
provide.
Fifth, be inclusive of people and new technology. It's serious work, but it should be
fun.
Previously, we unfortunately never spent the time to codify how we would deliver on these
concepts. Rather, we have relied on an informal use of traditional free and open-source
principles.
Recently a situation has arisen that compromises some of these principles and thus the
entire status of the project, creating consternation among many users and contributors.
For this reason, a number of us have stepped up to create a new organizational structure,
which we call "The Open SIMH Project", to be the keeper and provide formal
governance for the SIMH ecosystem going forward. While details of the structure and how
it operates are likely to be refined over time, what will not change is our commitment to
maintaining SIMH as a free and open-source project, licensed under an MIT-style license as
shown on the "simh" repository page.
It is our desire that all of the past users and contributors will come to recognize that
the new organizational structure is in the best interests of the community at large and
that they will join us in it. However, this iproject as defined, is where we intend to
contribute our expertise and time going forward. At this point, we have in place the
following, although we foresee other resources being added in the future as we identify
the need and execute against them:
A Github "organization" for the project at https://github.com/open-simh
A Git repository for the simulators themselves at https://github.com/open-simh/simh
The license for the SIMH simulator code base, found in LICENSE.txt in the top level of the
"simh" repository.
The "SIMH related tools" in https://github.com/open-simh/simtools. This is also
licensed under MIT style or BSD style open source licenses (which are comparable apart
from some minor wording differences).
A "SIMH Steering Group" -- project maintainers and guides.
The conventional git style process is used for code contributions, via pull request to the
project repository. The Steering Group members have approval authority; this list is
likely to change and grow over time.
By formalizing the underlying structure, our operational principles and guidance can best
benefit the community. These are being developed and formalized, with a plan to publish
them soon.
We have used our best judgment in setting up this structure but are open to discussion and
consideration of other ideas, and to making improvements. Many of us have been part of
different projects and understand that past mistakes are real. We have tried to learn from
these experiences and apply the collected wisdom appropriately. We desire to hear from the
community as we update and refine the operating structure for the Open SIMH project.
We hope for your patience and look forward to your support as we work to refine the
organization and be able to provide this wonderful resource for anyone to use as we
continue to evolve the technology provided by the SIMH system.
The SIMH Steering Group
Clem Cole
Richard Cornwell
Paul Koning
Timothe Litt
Seth Morabito
Bob Supnik
3 Jun
3 Jun
11:02 p.m.
can you share the reasons for the split for those of us who do not know?
On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 at 20:53, Paul Koning <paulkoning(a)comcast.net> wrote:
Announcing the Open SIMH project
SIMH is a framework and family of computer simulators, initiated by Bob
Supnik and continued with contributions (large and small) from many others,
with the primary goal of enabling the preservation of knowledge contained
in, and providing the ability to execute/experience, old/historic software
via simulation of the hardware on which it ran. This goal has been
successfully achieved and has for these years created a diverse community
of users and developers.
This has mapped to some core operational principles:
First, preserve the ability to run old/historically significant software.
This means functionally accurate, sometimes bug-compatible, but not
cycle-accurate, simulation.
Second, make it reasonably easy to add new simulators for other hardware
while leveraging common functions between the simulators.
Third, exploit the software nature of simulation and make SIMH convenient
for debugging a simulated system, by adding non-historical features to the
environment.
Fourth, make it convenient for users to explore old system environments,
with as close to historical interfaces, by mapping them to new features
that modern host operating systems provide.
Fifth, be inclusive of people and new technology. It's serious work, but
it should be fun.
Previously, we unfortunately never spent the time to codify how we would
deliver on these concepts. Rather, we have relied on an informal use of
traditional free and open-source principles.
Recently a situation has arisen that compromises some of these principles
and thus the entire status of the project, creating consternation among
many users and contributors.
For this reason, a number of us have stepped up to create a new
organizational structure, which we call "The Open SIMH Project", to be the
keeper and provide formal governance for the SIMH ecosystem going forward.
While details of the structure and how it operates are likely to be refined
over time, what will not change is our commitment to maintaining SIMH as a
free and open-source project, licensed under an MIT-style license as shown
on the "simh" repository page.
It is our desire that all of the past users and contributors will come to
recognize that the new organizational structure is in the best interests of
the community at large and that they will join us in it. However, this
iproject as defined, is where we intend to contribute our expertise and
time going forward. At this point, we have in place the following,
although we foresee other resources being added in the future as we
identify the need and execute against them:
A Github "organization" for the project at https://github.com/open-simh
A Git repository for the simulators themselves at
https://github.com/open-simh/simh
The license for the SIMH simulator code base, found in LICENSE.txt in the
top level of the "simh" repository.
The "SIMH related tools" in https://github.com/open-simh/simtools. This
is also licensed under MIT style or BSD style open source licenses (which
are comparable apart from some minor wording differences).
A "SIMH Steering Group" -- project maintainers and guides.
The conventional git style process is used for code contributions, via
pull request to the project repository. The Steering Group members have
approval authority; this list is likely to change and grow over time.
By formalizing the underlying structure, our operational principles and
guidance can best benefit the community. These are being developed and
formalized, with a plan to publish them soon.
We have used our best judgment in setting up this structure but are open
to discussion and consideration of other ideas, and to making improvements.
Many of us have been part of different projects and understand that past
mistakes are real. We have tried to learn from these experiences and apply
the collected wisdom appropriately. We desire to hear from the community as
we update and refine the operating structure for the Open SIMH project.
We hope for your patience and look forward to your support as we work to
refine the organization and be able to provide this wonderful resource for
anyone to use as we continue to evolve the technology provided by the SIMH
system.
The SIMH Steering Group
Clem Cole
Richard Cornwell
Paul Koning
Timothe Litt
Seth Morabito
Bob Supnik
_______________________________________________
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11:18 p.m.
It's stated underneath the list of principles. I don't really want to go beyond
this.
paul
On Jun 3, 2022, at 5:02 PM, Stuart Martin
<wavey(a)wavey.org> wrote:
can you share the reasons for the split for those of us who do not know?
On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 at 20:53, Paul Koning <paulkoning(a)comcast.net
<mailto:paulkoning@comcast.net>> wrote:
Announcing the Open SIMH project
SIMH is a framework and family of computer simulators, initiated by Bob Supnik and
continued with contributions (large and small) from many others, with the primary goal of
enabling the preservation of knowledge contained in, and providing the ability to
execute/experience, old/historic software via simulation of the hardware on which it ran.
This goal has been successfully achieved and has for these years created a diverse
community of users and developers.
This has mapped to some core operational principles:
First, preserve the ability to run old/historically significant software. This means
functionally accurate, sometimes bug-compatible, but not cycle-accurate, simulation.
Second, make it reasonably easy to add new simulators for other hardware while leveraging
common functions between the simulators.
Third, exploit the software nature of simulation and make SIMH convenient for debugging a
simulated system, by adding non-historical features to the environment.
Fourth, make it convenient for users to explore old system environments, with as close to
historical interfaces, by mapping them to new features that modern host operating systems
provide.
Fifth, be inclusive of people and new technology. It's serious work, but it should be
fun.
Previously, we unfortunately never spent the time to codify how we would deliver on these
concepts. Rather, we have relied on an informal use of traditional free and open-source
principles.
Recently a situation has arisen that compromises some of these principles and thus the
entire status of the project, creating consternation among many users and contributors.
For this reason, a number of us have stepped up to create a new organizational structure,
which we call "The Open SIMH Project", to be the keeper and provide formal
governance for the SIMH ecosystem going forward. While details of the structure and how
it operates are likely to be refined over time, what will not change is our commitment to
maintaining SIMH as a free and open-source project, licensed under an MIT-style license as
shown on the "simh" repository page.
It is our desire that all of the past users and contributors will come to recognize that
the new organizational structure is in the best interests of the community at large and
that they will join us in it. However, this iproject as defined, is where we intend to
contribute our expertise and time going forward. At this point, we have in place the
following, although we foresee other resources being added in the future as we identify
the need and execute against them:
A Github "organization" for the project at https://github.com/open-simh
<https://github.com/open-simh>
A Git repository for the simulators themselves at https://github.com/open-simh/simh
<https://github.com/open-simh/simh>
The license for the SIMH simulator code base, found in LICENSE.txt in the top level of
the "simh" repository.
The "SIMH related tools" in https://github.com/open-simh/simtools
<https://github.com/open-simh/simtools>. This is also licensed under MIT style or
BSD style open source licenses (which are comparable apart from some minor wording
differences).
A "SIMH Steering Group" -- project maintainers and guides.
The conventional git style process is used for code contributions, via pull request to
the project repository. The Steering Group members have approval authority; this list is
likely to change and grow over time.
By formalizing the underlying structure, our operational principles and guidance can best
benefit the community. These are being developed and formalized, with a plan to publish
them soon.
We have used our best judgment in setting up this structure but are open to discussion
and consideration of other ideas, and to making improvements. Many of us have been part of
different projects and understand that past mistakes are real. We have tried to learn from
these experiences and apply the collected wisdom appropriately. We desire to hear from the
community as we update and refine the operating structure for the Open SIMH project.
We hope for your patience and look forward to your support as we work to refine the
organization and be able to provide this wonderful resource for anyone to use as we
continue to evolve the technology provided by the SIMH system.
The SIMH Steering Group
Clem Cole
Richard Cornwell
Paul Koning
Timothe Litt
Seth Morabito
Bob Supnik
_______________________________________________
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11:30 p.m.
Most folks have been using and contributing to this repository
https://github.com/simh/simh/
and I think if you read the modified licence which the owner of this repository tried to
apply
https://github.com/simh/simh/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
you will get a feel for the reason for the split….
.. if you want to delve into the detail, I suggest you join the SIMH mail list here:-
https://groups.io/g/simh/
and read the archives….
Dave
From: Stuart Martin <wavey(a)wavey.org>
Sent: 03 June 2022 22:02
To: The Hobbyist DECnet mailing list <hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se>
Subject: [HECnet] Re: Announcing the Open SIMH project
can you share the reasons for the split for those of us who do not know?
On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 at 20:53, Paul Koning <paulkoning(a)comcast.net
<mailto:paulkoning@comcast.net> > wrote:
Announcing the Open SIMH project
SIMH is a framework and family of computer simulators, initiated by Bob Supnik and
continued with contributions (large and small) from many others, with the primary goal of
enabling the preservation of knowledge contained in, and providing the ability to
execute/experience, old/historic software via simulation of the hardware on which it ran.
This goal has been successfully achieved and has for these years created a diverse
community of users and developers.
This has mapped to some core operational principles:
First, preserve the ability to run old/historically significant software. This means
functionally accurate, sometimes bug-compatible, but not cycle-accurate, simulation.
Second, make it reasonably easy to add new simulators for other hardware while leveraging
common functions between the simulators.
Third, exploit the software nature of simulation and make SIMH convenient for debugging a
simulated system, by adding non-historical features to the environment.
Fourth, make it convenient for users to explore old system environments, with as close to
historical interfaces, by mapping them to new features that modern host operating systems
provide.
Fifth, be inclusive of people and new technology. It's serious work, but it should be
fun.
Previously, we unfortunately never spent the time to codify how we would deliver on these
concepts. Rather, we have relied on an informal use of traditional free and open-source
principles.
Recently a situation has arisen that compromises some of these principles and thus the
entire status of the project, creating consternation among many users and contributors.
For this reason, a number of us have stepped up to create a new organizational structure,
which we call "The Open SIMH Project", to be the keeper and provide formal
governance for the SIMH ecosystem going forward. While details of the structure and how
it operates are likely to be refined over time, what will not change is our commitment to
maintaining SIMH as a free and open-source project, licensed under an MIT-style license as
shown on the "simh" repository page.
It is our desire that all of the past users and contributors will come to recognize that
the new organizational structure is in the best interests of the community at large and
that they will join us in it. However, this iproject as defined, is where we intend to
contribute our expertise and time going forward. At this point, we have in place the
following, although we foresee other resources being added in the future as we identify
the need and execute against them:
A Github "organization" for the project at https://github.com/open-simh
A Git repository for the simulators themselves at https://github.com/open-simh/simh
The license for the SIMH simulator code base, found in LICENSE.txt in the top level of the
"simh" repository.
The "SIMH related tools" in https://github.com/open-simh/simtools. This is also
licensed under MIT style or BSD style open source licenses (which are comparable apart
from some minor wording differences).
A "SIMH Steering Group" -- project maintainers and guides.
The conventional git style process is used for code contributions, via pull request to the
project repository. The Steering Group members have approval authority; this list is
likely to change and grow over time.
By formalizing the underlying structure, our operational principles and guidance can best
benefit the community. These are being developed and formalized, with a plan to publish
them soon.
We have used our best judgment in setting up this structure but are open to discussion and
consideration of other ideas, and to making improvements. Many of us have been part of
different projects and understand that past mistakes are real. We have tried to learn from
these experiences and apply the collected wisdom appropriately. We desire to hear from the
community as we update and refine the operating structure for the Open SIMH project.
We hope for your patience and look forward to your support as we work to refine the
organization and be able to provide this wonderful resource for anyone to use as we
continue to evolve the technology provided by the SIMH system.
The SIMH Steering Group
Clem Cole
Richard Cornwell
Paul Koning
Timothe Litt
Seth Morabito
Bob Supnik
_______________________________________________
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4 Jun
4 Jun
12:03 a.m.
thanks, I've caught up. What a shame it came to this, open source can be
heaven and hell.
Everyone's contributions are so gratefully received by end users like me to
keep these old systems alive, but agree 100% with the decision to fork anew
when no way forward can be found between such strongly held opinions.
On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 at 22:31, <dave.g4ugm(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Most folks have been using and contributing to this
repository
https://github.com/simh/simh/
and I think if you read the modified licence which the owner of this
repository tried to apply
https://github.com/simh/simh/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
you will get a feel for the reason for the split….
.. if you want to delve into the detail, I suggest you join the SIMH mail
list here:-
https://groups.io/g/simh/
and read the archives….
Dave
*From:* Stuart Martin <wavey(a)wavey.org>
*Sent:* 03 June 2022 22:02
*To:* The Hobbyist DECnet mailing list <hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se>
*Subject:* [HECnet] Re: Announcing the Open SIMH project
can you share the reasons for the split for those of us who do not know?
On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 at 20:53, Paul Koning <paulkoning(a)comcast.net> wrote:
Announcing the Open SIMH project
SIMH is a framework and family of computer simulators, initiated by Bob
Supnik and continued with contributions (large and small) from many others,
with the primary goal of enabling the preservation of knowledge contained
in, and providing the ability to execute/experience, old/historic software
via simulation of the hardware on which it ran. This goal has been
successfully achieved and has for these years created a diverse community
of users and developers.
This has mapped to some core operational principles:
First, preserve the ability to run old/historically significant software.
This means functionally accurate, sometimes bug-compatible, but not
cycle-accurate, simulation.
Second, make it reasonably easy to add new simulators for other hardware
while leveraging common functions between the simulators.
Third, exploit the software nature of simulation and make SIMH convenient
for debugging a simulated system, by adding non-historical features to the
environment.
Fourth, make it convenient for users to explore old system environments,
with as close to historical interfaces, by mapping them to new features
that modern host operating systems provide.
Fifth, be inclusive of people and new technology. It's serious work, but
it should be fun.
Previously, we unfortunately never spent the time to codify how we would
deliver on these concepts. Rather, we have relied on an informal use of
traditional free and open-source principles.
Recently a situation has arisen that compromises some of these principles
and thus the entire status of the project, creating consternation among
many users and contributors.
For this reason, a number of us have stepped up to create a new
organizational structure, which we call "The Open SIMH Project", to be the
keeper and provide formal governance for the SIMH ecosystem going forward.
While details of the structure and how it operates are likely to be refined
over time, what will not change is our commitment to maintaining SIMH as a
free and open-source project, licensed under an MIT-style license as shown
on the "simh" repository page.
It is our desire that all of the past users and contributors will come to
recognize that the new organizational structure is in the best interests of
the community at large and that they will join us in it. However, this
iproject as defined, is where we intend to contribute our expertise and
time going forward. At this point, we have in place the following,
although we foresee other resources being added in the future as we
identify the need and execute against them:
A Github "organization" for the project at https://github.com/open-simh
A Git repository for the simulators themselves at
https://github.com/open-simh/simh
The license for the SIMH simulator code base, found in LICENSE.txt in the
top level of the "simh" repository.
The "SIMH related tools" in https://github.com/open-simh/simtools. This
is also licensed under MIT style or BSD style open source licenses (which
are comparable apart from some minor wording differences).
A "SIMH Steering Group" -- project maintainers and guides.
The conventional git style process is used for code contributions, via
pull request to the project repository. The Steering Group members have
approval authority; this list is likely to change and grow over time.
By formalizing the underlying structure, our operational principles and
guidance can best benefit the community. These are being developed and
formalized, with a plan to publish them soon.
We have used our best judgment in setting up this structure but are open
to discussion and consideration of other ideas, and to making improvements.
Many of us have been part of different projects and understand that past
mistakes are real. We have tried to learn from these experiences and apply
the collected wisdom appropriately. We desire to hear from the community as
we update and refine the operating structure for the Open SIMH project.
We hope for your patience and look forward to your support as we work to
refine the organization and be able to provide this wonderful resource for
anyone to use as we continue to evolve the technology provided by the SIMH
system.
The SIMH Steering Group
Clem Cole
Richard Cornwell
Paul Koning
Timothe Litt
Seth Morabito
Bob Supnik
_______________________________________________
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12:43 a.m.
On 6/3/22 18:03, Stuart Martin wrote:
thanks, I've caught up. What a shame it came to
this, open source can be
heaven and hell.
There's no hell; the project just moves on and leaves the people who
did stupid things behind. No problem.
Everyone's contributions are so gratefully
received by end users like me
to keep these old systems alive, but agree 100% with the decision to
fork anew when no way forward can be found between such strongly held
opinions.
Agreed 100%. The design decision in question cost me SO much time
and effort at LSSM that I'm still seeing red. It never occurred to me
that simh would be maliciously corrupting my damn disk images. I was to
the point of hauling out oscilloscopes and such.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
12:55 a.m.
Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
... simh would be maliciously corrupting my damn disk images.
Just got done reviewing the simh mailing list archive myself. I had no idea this debate
was going on.
Do we know at what date the "V4" simh started adding metadata to the disk
images?
After reading all this I immediately looked at the image files for my simh instances and
I don't think there's any extra bytes in there, but it's tough to be certain.
Bob
1:33 a.m.
I think it's been in for atleast a year, and probably a couple more.
But I'd have to check the history to know for sure. But as far as I can
recall, it adds extra data at the end of the image. So check if you have
something "funny" in the last block of the image.
Johnny
On 2022-06-04 00:55, Robert Armstrong wrote:
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
Dave McGuire
<mcguire(a)neurotica.com> wrote:
... simh would be maliciously corrupting my damn disk images.
Just got done reviewing the simh mailing list archive myself. I had no idea this
debate was going on.
Do we know at what date the "V4" simh started adding metadata to the disk
images?
After reading all this I immediately looked at the image files for my simh instances
and I don't think there's any extra bytes in there, but it's tough to be
certain.
Bob
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3:12 a.m.
I got the impression from the email thread that it was a fairly recent
(e.g. this May) change, but that might just be when people started noticing.
It looks like the last time I updated my simulators from github was around
April 2021, so hopefully I'm OK. I also see that all my disk images are an
exact multiple of 512 bytes, which is also a good sign (unless of course the
metadata is 512 bytes too!).
It's a bit of a concern because from time to time I copy simh simulated
disk image files to a real, physical, disk (RL02, RA7x, RA8x, etc) and I
also do the reverse (make simh disk images by copying physical disks).
That's always worked flawlessly in the past.
I also had no idea that Bob Supnik was independently working on a simh
update, nor that Mark's github repository was his own personal project. I
guess I always assumed that it was "sanctioned" in some way. Silly me...
Bob
10:13 a.m.
The metadata is exactly one extra block, and it's definitely been around
for longer than a month or two.
It's been disagreed on for a while by at least me (and I think some
others). I don't know why it suddenly triggered the big discussion just
recently. Personally, I've mostly been exchanging mails directly with
Mark about it.
But I cannot remember when it actually came about. Like I said, go and
check the last block of your images if there is something "funny" there.
But I'm even more behind than you are. I'm running a version more than 2
years old. And as far as I can tell, that version isn't changing the images.
Johnny
On 2022-06-04 03:12, Robert Armstrong wrote:
I got the impression from the email thread that it
was a fairly recent
(e.g. this May) change, but that might just be when people started noticing.
It looks like the last time I updated my simulators from github was around
April 2021, so hopefully I'm OK. I also see that all my disk images are an
exact multiple of 512 bytes, which is also a good sign (unless of course the
metadata is 512 bytes too!).
It's a bit of a concern because from time to time I copy simh simulated
disk image files to a real, physical, disk (RL02, RA7x, RA8x, etc) and I
also do the reverse (make simh disk images by copying physical disks).
That's always worked flawlessly in the past.
I also had no idea that Bob Supnik was independently working on a simh
update, nor that Mark's github repository was his own personal project. I
guess I always assumed that it was "sanctioned" in some way. Silly me...
Bob
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--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
12:24 p.m.
And the only person other than Mark who has made commits to simh/simh since
open-simh was forked is..... me :(
Guess I will have to resubmit to the new repo.
I read through some of the discussion and I was also under the impression
that the simh/simh project was a proper
open source continuation of Bob's original. So a new project based on
proper open source principles looks
like the "least worst" option at this point.
On Sat, 4 Jun 2022 at 09:13, Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)softjar.se> wrote:
The metadata is exactly one extra block, and it's
definitely been around
for longer than a month or two.
It's been disagreed on for a while by at least me (and I think some
others). I don't know why it suddenly triggered the big discussion just
recently. Personally, I've mostly been exchanging mails directly with
Mark about it.
But I cannot remember when it actually came about. Like I said, go and
check the last block of your images if there is something "funny" there.
But I'm even more behind than you are. I'm running a version more than 2
years old. And as far as I can tell, that version isn't changing the
images.
Johnny
On 2022-06-04 03:12, Robert Armstrong wrote:
I got the impression from the email thread
that it was a fairly recent
(e.g. this May) change, but that might just be when people started
noticing.
It looks like the last time I updated my
simulators from github was
around
April 2021, so hopefully I'm OK. I also see
that all my disk images
are an
exact multiple of 512 bytes, which is also a good
sign (unless of course
the
metadata is 512 bytes too!).
It's a bit of a concern because from time to time I copy simh
simulated
disk image files to a real, physical, disk (RL02,
RA7x, RA8x, etc) and I
also do the reverse (make simh disk images by copying physical disks).
That's always worked flawlessly in the past.
I also had no idea that Bob Supnik was independently working on a simh
update, nor that Mark's github repository was his own personal project.
I
guess I always assumed that it was
"sanctioned" in some way. Silly me...
Bob
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Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt(a)softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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5 Jun
5 Jun
4:08 a.m.
I first learned of the new disk file metadata in December of 2021, when heated discussions
about it occurred in a forum I was part of. It appears to me that the change was
introduced in April of 2020 in this commit:
https://github.com/simh/simh/commit/049ba3250521f0bc08822088bd023115da030711
<https://github.com/simh/simh/commit/049ba3250521f0bc08822088bd023115da030711>
I wrote a little utility in Python to search my images for the presence of the new
metadata, and add/edit/remove the metadata as desired:
https://gitlab.com/NF6X_Retrocomputing/simh-diskinfo
<https://gitlab.com/NF6X_Retrocomputing/simh-diskinfo>
I stopped thinking about the matter not long after that, I have not pulled fresh simh code
from the repository in a while, and I do not know whether my utility code is still
compatible with later versions of the pre-fork simh code. My usually-on VAX emulations are
running on simh code from back in December.
I was surprised to see how this all escalated, since I've been living under a virtual
rock for a while. I assume that I'll be switching to the new open-simh fork next time
simh activities move to my front burner, because the license changes which apparently
prompted the fork look rather distasteful to me. I'm interested in seeing if the
metadata stuff gets any changes in the future in open-simh.
--
Mark J. Blair <nf6x(a)nf6x.net>
Blog: https://www.nf6x.net
Git: https://gitlab.com/users/NF6X/groups
HECnet: DOGPAK::MBLAIR
4:20 a.m.
The addition of metadata to existing disk containers can be simply disabled if a:
SET NOAUTOSIZE
Command exists in the configuration file you use for a particular simulator execution,
OR if you always want it disabled, that command can be placed in a simh.ini file in your
home directory.
If you want to determine if metadata exists on disk container files you have, this command
will display the details:
sim> DISKINFO *.dsk
If you've got containers that may or may not have previously had metadata added and
you want to remove that meta data, the following command will do that:
sim> ZAP *.dsk
The ZAP command will only remove metadata that was added by the code in a simulator, and
otherwise leave containers without metadata alone.
From: Mark J. Blair <nf6x(a)nf6x.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2022 7:09 PM
To: The Hobbyist DECnet mailing list <hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se>
Subject: [HECnet] Re: Announcing the Open SIMH project
I first learned of the new disk file metadata in December of 2021, when heated discussions
about it occurred in a forum I was part of. It appears to me that the change was
introduced in April of 2020 in this commit:
https://github.com/simh/simh/commit/049ba3250521f0bc08822088bd023115da030711
I wrote a little utility in Python to search my images for the presence of the new
metadata, and add/edit/remove the metadata as desired:
https://gitlab.com/NF6X_Retrocomputing/simh-diskinfo
I stopped thinking about the matter not long after that, I have not pulled fresh simh code
from the repository in a while, and I do not know whether my utility code is still
compatible with later versions of the pre-fork simh code. My usually-on VAX emulations are
running on simh code from back in December.
I was surprised to see how this all escalated, since I've been living under a virtual
rock for a while. I assume that I'll be switching to the new open-simh fork next time
simh activities move to my front burner, because the license changes which apparently
prompted the fork look rather distasteful to me. I'm interested in seeing if the
metadata stuff gets any changes in the future in open-simh.
--
Mark J. Blair <nf6x@nf6x.net<mailto:nf6x@nf6x.net>>
Blog: https://www.nf6x.net
Git: https://gitlab.com/users/NF6X/groups
HECnet: DOGPAK::MBLAIR
4:22 a.m.
Thank you for explaining this.
-Dave
On 6/4/22 22:20, Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm wrote:
The addition of metadata to existing disk containers
can be simply
disabled if a:
SET NOAUTOSIZE
Command exists in the configuration file you use for a particular
simulator execution,
OR if you always want it disabled, that command can be placed in a
simh.ini file in your home directory.
If you want to determine if metadata exists on disk container files you
have, this command will display the details:
sim> DISKINFO *.dsk
If you’ve got containers that may or may not have previously had
metadata added and you want to remove that meta data, the following
command will do that:
sim> ZAP *.dsk
The ZAP command will only remove metadata that was added by the code in
a simulator, and otherwise leave containers without metadata alone.
*From:* Mark J. Blair <nf6x(a)nf6x.net>
*Sent:* Saturday, June 4, 2022 7:09 PM
*To:* The Hobbyist DECnet mailing list <hecnet(a)lists.dfupdate.se>
*Subject:* [HECnet] Re: Announcing the Open SIMH project
I first learned of the new disk file metadata in December of 2021, when
heated discussions about it occurred in a forum I was part of. It
appears to me that the change was introduced in April of 2020 in this
commit:
https://github.com/simh/simh/commit/049ba3250521f0bc08822088bd023115da030711
<https://github.com/simh/simh/commit/049ba3250521f0bc08822088bd023115da030711>
I wrote a little utility in Python to search my images for the presence
of the new metadata, and add/edit/remove the metadata as desired:
https://gitlab.com/NF6X_Retrocomputing/simh-diskinfo
<https://gitlab.com/NF6X_Retrocomputing/simh-diskinfo>
I stopped thinking about the matter not long after that, I have not
pulled fresh simh code from the repository in a while, and I do not know
whether my utility code is still compatible with later versions of the
pre-fork simh code. My usually-on VAX emulations are running on simh
code from back in December.
I was surprised to see how this all escalated, since I've been living
under a virtual rock for a while. I assume that I'll be switching to the
new open-simh fork next time simh activities move to my front burner,
because the license changes which apparently prompted the fork look
rather distasteful to me. I'm interested in seeing if the metadata stuff
gets any changes in the future in open-simh.
--
Mark J. Blair <nf6x(a)nf6x.net <mailto:nf6x@nf6x.net>>
Blog: https://www.nf6x.net <https://www.nf6x.net>
Git: https://gitlab.com/users/NF6X/groups
<https://gitlab.com/users/NF6X/groups>
HECnet: DOGPAK::MBLAIR
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--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4:40 a.m.
Mark Pizzolato Mark(a)infocomm.com wrote:
SET NOAUTOSIZE
I read that. Doesnt seem to work (or I dont know what Im doing)
bob@falsetto:~$ microvax3900
MicroVAX 3900 simulator V4.0-0 Current git commit id:
4471e052
sim> set noautosize
Non-existent device
sim> set noautosize rq0
Non-existent device
sim> show rq
RQ address=20001468-2000146B, no vector, BR4, RQDX3, 4 units
RQ0 159MB, not attached, write enabled
RD54, UNIT=0, autosize
AUTO detect format
RQ1 159MB, not attached, write enabled
RD54, UNIT=1, autosize
AUTO detect format
RQ2 159MB, not attached, write enabled
RD54, UNIT=2, autosize
AUTO detect format
RQ3 409KB, not attached, write enabled
RX50, UNIT=3, autosize
AUTO detect format
sim>
Whats the secret?
Bob
5:30 a.m.
On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 7:41 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote:
That functionality was added after this discussion started.
The code at the head of the master branch at https://github.com/simh/simh
OR
https://github.com/open-simh/simh
has the functionality to disable the metadata addition..
Mark Pizzolato
Mark(a)infocomm.com wrote:
SET NOAUTOSIZE
I read that. Doesn't seem to work (or I don't know what I'm doing) .
bob@falsetto:~$ microvax3900
MicroVAX 3900 simulator V4.0-0 Current git commit id: 4471e052
That version was from a year back.
sim> set noautosize
Non-existent device
sim> set noautosize rq0
Non-existent device
sim> HELP RQ SET
will show the available set commands for the RQ device, BUT the version
you're running isn't guaranteed to disable metadata. The DISKINFO and
ZAP commands "should" work in your though, but the latest
- Mark
5:59 a.m.
On June 4, 2022 11:30:57 PM Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm <Mark(a)infocomm.com> wrote:
That functionality was added after this discussion started.
The code at the head of the master branch at https://github.com/simh/simh
OR
https://github.com/open-simh/simh
has the functionality to disable the metadata addition..
So the ability to disable this utterly insane idea wasn't there since day one?
Well, so much for thinking that the madness wasn't as bad as I'd thought.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
SET NOAUTOSIZE
I read that. Doesn't seem to work (or I don't know what I'm doing) .
4 Jun
4 Jun
2:41 a.m.
On Jun 3, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Robert Armstrong
<bob(a)jfcl.com> wrote:
I don't remember; I think it's fairly recent, though given how I use SIMH I might
not have noticed. The logs would give a clue. Or if you find the source code that does
this, just do "git blame" on that file.
paul
Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com>
wrote:
... simh would be maliciously corrupting my damn disk images.
Just got done reviewing the simh mailing list archive myself. I had no idea this debate
was going on.
Do we know at what date the "V4" simh started adding metadata to the disk
images?
After reading all this I immediately looked at the image files for my simh instances and
I don't think there's any extra bytes in there, but it's tough to be certain.
Bob
702
days inactive
704
days old
17 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
Dave McGuire -
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
Johnny Billquist -
Mark J. Blair -
Mark Pizzolato - Info Comm -
Paul Koning -
Robert Armstrong -
Stuart Martin -
Trevor Warwick