Phase 2, or phase 1? I have seen (and read, cursorily) a manual for a PDP-8 based DECnet phase 1. It made it quite clear that there is no plausible way to be compatible with that, it's quite a different protocol than Phase 2 and later. paul

On Sep 18, 2018, at 6:44 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: A couple of more comments: The manual I have for DECNET-8 is dated February 1977. The timeline for DECnet on Wikipedia claims that phase II was introduced in 1975. According that same article, it would appear that only RSX ever had DECnet phase I. But information on Wikipedia should as usual be taken with a grain of salt. Especially when it a bit more obscure information, for which there are few sources, and the information might be written by someone without direct experience. A couple of quotes from the code, that might help: From NSP.PA: /NETWORK SERVICES PROTOCOL FOR DECNET/8 / IMPLEMENTED AT SPEC LEVEL 2.2 / /J. ROTH 23-NOV-75 /JR 17-DEC-76 ADDED VERSION 2.2 CHANGES / / WARNING: / / THERE EXISTS A BUG IN THE NETWORK DESIGN, SUCH THAT DROPPAGE / OF LEADING 0 BITS IN THE FIRST FRAME OF THE NSP DATA MESSAGE / IS NOT DETECTED BY CRC. TO CIRCUMVENT THIS BUG, THIS NSP CODE / ALWAYS SETS THE NSP 'BLOCKING' BIT WHEN SENDING, AND IGNORES IT / WHEN RECEIVING. / / / DECNET/8 RELEASE VERSION 1 / DECNET/8 PATCH LEVEL A / APRIL 8,1977 / VERSION=01 PATCH="C /JR01 16-MAY-77 FIX CONNECT REJECT BY DISCONNECT BUG / NSP02 SCR 9/77 FIX INTERRUPT PACKET BUG [02] / So, despite the comments, it's version 1C, and not 1A. And the last fix was in September 1977. And "SPEC LEVEL 2.2" might be useful in figuring out what phase it might be, and it might be a hint for phase 2. Johnny On 2018-09-19 00:30, Johnny Billquist wrote: -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From what I remember it was phase iii. I used to support IAS-11 between 1980-1983 at the Corporate Operations Group, Maynard, MA

On Sep 19, 2018, at 13:00, Jeffrey H. Johnson <jhj at trnsz.com> wrote: John, Fascinating history. I've been trying to track down DECnet/IAS - all I've been able to find so far is the SPD. (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/spd/10.71.03_7802_DECnet-IAS.pdf) Was Phase III or IV software available for IAS? -- Jeffrey H. Johnson jhj at trnsz.com https://ban.ai/multics > On Sep 19, 2018, at 9:42 AM, John Forecast <john at forecast.name> wrote: > > I worked on DECnet Phase II (11-D and IAS) starting in February 1977. As I recall, the protocol specs were complete by then, so design had probably started sometime in 1976. The original goal was to complete the project in 9 months but it ended up taking 18+ months. > > I used Phase I on a pair of 11/40?s running RSX-11D around the middle of 1976. The CHM has a transcript of an interview from 1988 with Stu Wecker who did the original DECnet architecture where he claims that Phase I development was done for 11-M, 11-D, PDP-8 and PDP-10 (Tops-10) - not sure if they were all released. > > John. > >> On Sep 18, 2018, at 6:44 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: >> >> A couple of more comments: >> >> The manual I have for DECNET-8 is dated February 1977. >> The timeline for DECnet on Wikipedia claims that phase II was introduced in 1975. >> According that same article, it would appear that only RSX ever had DECnet phase I. >> >> But information on Wikipedia should as usual be taken with a grain of salt. Especially when it a bit more obscure information, for which there are few sources, and the information might be written by someone without direct experience. >> >> A couple of quotes from the code, that might help: >> >> From NSP.PA: >> /NETWORK SERVICES PROTOCOL FOR DECNET/8 >> / IMPLEMENTED AT SPEC LEVEL 2.2 >> / >> /J. ROTH 23-NOV-75 >> /JR 17-DEC-76 ADDED VERSION 2.2 CHANGES >> / >> / WARNING: >> / >> / THERE EXISTS A BUG IN THE NETWORK DESIGN, SUCH THAT DROPPAGE >> / OF LEADING 0 BITS IN THE FIRST FRAME OF THE NSP DATA MESSAGE >> / IS NOT DETECTED BY CRC. TO CIRCUMVENT THIS BUG, THIS NSP CODE >> / ALWAYS SETS THE NSP 'BLOCKING' BIT WHEN SENDING, AND IGNORES IT >> / WHEN RECEIVING. >> / >> / >> / DECNET/8 RELEASE VERSION 1 >> / DECNET/8 PATCH LEVEL A >> / APRIL 8,1977 >> / >> VERSION=01 >> PATCH="C >> /JR01 16-MAY-77 FIX CONNECT REJECT BY DISCONNECT BUG >> / NSP02 SCR 9/77 FIX INTERRUPT PACKET BUG [02] >> / >> >> >> So, despite the comments, it's version 1C, and not 1A. And the last fix was in September 1977. >> And "SPEC LEVEL 2.2" might be useful in figuring out what phase it might be, and it might be a hint for phase 2. >> >> Johnny >> >>> On 2018-09-19 00:30, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> Hmm. Thinking some more, I remember that we had a discussion about this about 2 years ago. >>> At that time, I tried to figure it out, and found DECnet-8 to look like it was somewhere between phase I and phase II, so I guess my previous comment was too hasty, and it don't seem to be a proper phase II implementation. >>> But, like I mentioned the previous time, I can go and dig more into the code, if someone is interested. >>> Johnny >>>> On 2018-09-18 22:56, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> Phase 2, or phase 1? I have seen (and read, cursorily) a manual for a PDP-8 based DECnet phase 1. It made it quite clear that there is no plausible way to be compatible with that, it's quite a different protocol than Phase 2 and later. >>>> >>>> paul >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sep 18, 2018, at 4:50 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There is a phase ii release for rts-8. How easy it would be to get it up and running might be a different story, but the sources are on the internet. >>>>> >>>>> Johnny >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> skrev: (18 september 2018 19:30:56 CEST) >>>>> Does anyone have the Phase II DECnet that goes with RSTS V7.0? I think it calls itself DECnet/E V1.1, rather confusingly. >>>>> >>>>> For that matter, are there any Phase II DECnet releases around? I know of the TOPS-20 one; any others? Ditto for Phase III. >>>>> >>>>> paul >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Skickat fr?n min Android-enhet med K-9 Mail. Urs?kta min f?ordighet. >>>> >> >> >> -- >> Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus >> || on a psychedelic trip >> email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books >> pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol >

On Sep 19, 2018, at 2:16 PM, Jeffrey H. Johnson <jhj at trnsz.com> wrote: That's awesome! IAS doesn't get the love it deserves. I'm should to try bringing up an IAS 3.4 system again from the tapes at Bitsavers later tonight - I've previously run 3.0, but had some issue during the SYSGEN on 3.4 ? exactly the issue I can't recall right now. But, unfortunately seems it won't able to be on HECnet. -- Jeffrey H. Johnson jhj at trnsz.com https://ban.ai/multics

On Sep 19, 2018, at 5:26 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: On 2018-09-19 20:16, Jeffrey H. Johnson wrote: There is (limited) compatibility between phase III and phase IV. It would be possible to be on HECnet, but only accessible by other machines in the same area, I think. Poul would know better what the restrictions are.

On Sep 19, 2018, at 6:09 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: ... A PMR server is included as unsupported software with DECnet on RSX. So I have the code for the server side. RSX NFT and FTS supports using PMR when accessing remote files. The requirements (according to the manual) is that all intermediate nodes needs to be VMS, and the final node can be VMS or Ultrix, but this is documented in relationship on how to trasfer files to/from DECnet Phase V nodes. So maybe no surprise about the claim that intermediate nodes should be VMS then.

On Sep 18, 2018, at 6:44 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote: A couple of more comments: The manual I have for DECNET-8 is dated February 1977. The timeline for DECnet on Wikipedia claims that phase II was introduced in 1975. According that same article, it would appear that only RSX ever had DECnet phase I. But information on Wikipedia should as usual be taken with a grain of salt. Especially when it a bit more obscure information, for which there are few sources, and the information might be written by someone without direct experience. A couple of quotes from the code, that might help: From NSP.PA: /NETWORK SERVICES PROTOCOL FOR DECNET/8 / IMPLEMENTED AT SPEC LEVEL 2.2 ... So, despite the comments, it's version 1C, and not 1A. And the last fix was in September 1977. And "SPEC LEVEL 2.2" might be useful in figuring out what phase it might be, and it might be a hint for phase 2.