9 Dec
2019
9 Dec
'19
10:38 p.m.
I have been fixing some issues with the file access listening (FAL)
under Tops-20.? Briefly, it would crash on listing extremely large
directories and return incorrect byte sizes and counts for files under
certain circumstances.? It also did not support anonymous access as is
currently used in HECnet (blank user name).? There were other issues.
It's been a bit of a slog, the first two issues taking a considerable
amount of time to solve.? However, they're fixed and I've got some
prototype anonymous code running.? I would say that I am about 1 to 2
months away from an alpha test; the configurable restriction parsing is
nearly done, hooks remain to be into DAP functions and deployment
documentation to be written.
Questions:
1. My own version of FAL appears quite dated; it only has edits to
Tops-20 V6.1 (1985), whereas the last monitor distributions were in
the 7 series.
* Does anybody have any source files later than that for Tops-20?
2. What is the last version of DAP (any platform) for which a
specification exists?
3. The implementing DAP module (DAPLIB) appears even older, apparently
dating to V6.0, 1981 time-frame (which seems incorrect).? It?
supports DAP 5.6, for which I have the specifications.
* It does /not/ support $RENAME (ACCFUNC 3), which I found
remarkable.? Is $RENAME supported on all other platforms?
* I note that ACCFUNC 5 is reserved.? Is this used now?
* Is ACCFUNC 0 used?? For what?
* Is any ACCFUNC later than 8 defined?? What is the first free one?
The reason I ask the last is that some of the logic is largely table
driven, based on ACCFUNC.? This suggests modeling the restriction
parsing and implementation in a similar way (I.E., off of ACCFUNC),
which would be quite straightforward.? However, I want to be sure I
understand those numbers.
??? ??? --T
9 Dec
9 Dec
10:50 p.m.
On Dec 9, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
...
? What is the last version of DAP (any platform) for which a specification exists?
It appears to be 5.6.0. That's a Phase III era spec, but it is also listed as current
in the Phase IV General Description. And the Phase V General Description mentions DAP but
doesn't give a version number. The Phase V Routing spec has in the preface a list of
the Phase V specs with their order numbers; DAP is not mentioned there. So it looks like
it wasn't touched, which seems plausible. I don't remember any discussion about
it when Phase V was being developed.
paul
11 p.m.
I would be surprised if there needed to be any updates to DAP to support
Phase V as Phase V doesn't change the programming API in a significant
enough way (if at all) as to require corresponding changes to DAP.
As long as it can make a connection and check connection status, Etc.,
it seems happy enough.?? It doesn't talk to the management layer at all,
as far as I can tell.
There is some Phase II era code, which was put in to allow a kind of
"poor man's" routing.? Now I would guess that it would only be useful
for a non-adjacent node to talk to a DN200.
On 12/9/19 4:50 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On Dec 9, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
...
? What is the last version of DAP (any platform) for which a specification exists?
It appears to be 5.6.0. That's a Phase III era spec, but it is also listed as
current in the Phase IV General Description. And the Phase V General Description mentions
DAP but doesn't give a version number. The Phase V Routing spec has in the preface a
list of the Phase V specs with their order numbers; DAP is not mentioned there. So it
looks like it wasn't touched, which seems plausible. I don't remember any
discussion about it when Phase V was being developed.
paul
11:14 p.m.
On Dec 9, 2019, at 5:00 PM, Thomas DeBellis
<tommytimesharing at gmail.com> wrote:
I would be surprised if there needed to be any updates to DAP to support Phase V as Phase
V doesn't change the programming API in a significant enough way (if at all) as to
require corresponding changes to DAP.
As long as it can make a connection and check connection status, Etc., it seems happy
enough. It doesn't talk to the management layer at all, as far as I can tell.
There is some Phase II era code, which was put in to allow a kind of "poor
man's" routing. Now I would guess that it would only be useful for a
non-adjacent node to talk to a DN200.
Poor man's routing applies in two places. In Phase II, to allow you to talk to a
non-neighbor node (without benefit of "intercept" support). And later on, to
allow Phase III nodes to talk out of area and Phase IV nodes to talk to "hidden
area" nodes. These two were I think internal to DEC, because the internal DECnet was
too large for the architecture.
There seem to be two approaches to poor-man's routing: VMS did it in DAP without any
extra protocol machinery, simply because of the fact that VMS RMS lets you specify file
names that start with a node name. So a request for STAR::FRODO::foo.txt is handled by
STAR doing "transparent network access" to file FRODO::foo.txt.
In other applications, poor man's routing would be handled by noticing more than one
node name in the destination specification, which would tell it to connect to the PMR
(PSTHRU) object instead of the usual object. I've been trying to reverse engineer
that; unfortunately I don't seem to have any RSTS applications that call this.
Strange, because I'm fairly sure we had a "set host" client that did.
Fairly recently I saw the TOPS-10 (or -20?) PMR, but my MACRO-10 skills are terribly
rusty.
paul
10 Dec
10 Dec
midnight
This is a LONG time ago, but here is what I remembered when looking at
the poor man's routing code.
At the time, Columbia had started CCnet with Carnegie Mellon university
and Case Western was either online or close to it.? I believe DECnet was
still Phase II on the communications processors (DN20's) while the 20
was at Phase III (or maybe I have that backwards).? Whatever the case,
we didn't have full connectivity and one of our monitor developers came
up this hack and DEC later adopted it.? Or maybe I'm delusional.
Larry Campbell (who I had known at Marlboro) appears to have written the
DNCONN code, which is further productized then what I recall we had.
DNCONN has a database with poor man's routing, so that the user can just
type the requested node and the routing is figured out behind the
scenes.? We pretty much ditched everything when we got Phase IV.
It is not clear at what level VMS is implementing this transparency.
For Tops-20, GTJFN% can parse the full network specification
(node::dev:<directory>name.typ.gen;attributes), yet this does not result
in a JFN that can be directly OPENF%'ed (it's parse only).? So you can't
use command line interface (the EXEC) to directly copy things. ? NFT
uses JFNS% JSYS pull out the component parts to build the appropriate
network specification (viz, DCN:NODE-FAL) and then populates the DAP
ACCESS message with the rest of file specification, suitably groveled.
COMND% could easily parse multiple nodes as you've described and this
could have been put into the EXEC.? I don't remember why we didn't do
that; we were seriously into 'automatic-nice-things'.? I believe there
may have been concerns about overhead and stability.? We had had
problems with early versions of DAPLIB and the management interface
(NMLT20) was a pure horror show for quite some time; it crashed all the
time and we didn't have source to fix it.? It all certainly improved.
This is why I was surprised to find some of the problems that I did;
they popped up as soon as I got my systems onto HECnet and started doing
testing.
We also had a PDP-11/70 running RSTS, but I don't recall anything about
it doing DECnet (circa 1980-1981).
The Tops-20 anonymous implementation is another story.? There never was any.
Ours was a true hack.? On CCnet, if you wanted to host anonymous
service, you had to create a user id named 'ANON', password 'ANON',
account 'ANON'.? A full fledged id...? The reason for the user and
account restrictions was due to Carnegie Mellon; their accounting system
had been inherited from an MVS CICS application where user id's were
(and still are) limited to four characters (regular TSO ids can be
longer).? That id was then locked down elsewhere in the system.
Having completed my CSSLP and due for my CISSP, when I considered that
approach in this day and age, I was, well, pretty horrified. Different
times...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 12/9/19 5:14 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
Poor man's routing applies in two places. In Phase II, to allow you to talk to a
non-neighbor node (without benefit of "intercept" support). And later on, to
allow Phase III nodes to talk out of area and Phase IV nodes to talk to "hidden
area" nodes. These two were I think internal to DEC, because the internal DECnet was
too large for the architecture.
There seem to be two approaches to poor-man's routing: VMS did it in DAP without any
extra protocol machinery, simply because of the fact that VMS RMS lets you specify file
names that start with a node name. So a request for STAR::FRODO::foo.txt is handled by
STAR doing "transparent network access" to file FRODO::foo.txt.
In other applications, poor man's routing would be handled by noticing more than one
node name in the destination specification, which would tell it to connect to the PMR
(PSTHRU) object instead of the usual object. I've been trying to reverse engineer
that; unfortunately I don't seem to have any RSTS applications that call this.
Strange, because I'm fairly sure we had a "set host" client that did.
Fairly recently I saw the TOPS-10 (or -20?) PMR, but my MACRO-10 skills are terribly
rusty.
paul
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> On Dec 9, 2019, at 5:00 PM, Thomas DeBellis <tommytimesharing at gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> I would be surprised if there needed to be any updates to DAP to support Phase V as
Phase V doesn't change the programming API in a significant enough way (if at all) as
to require corresponding changes to DAP.
>
> As long as it can make a connection and check connection status, Etc., it seems happy
enough. It doesn't talk to the management layer at all, as far as I can tell.
>
> There is some Phase II era code, which was put in to allow a kind of "poor
man's" routing. Now I would guess that it would only be useful for a
non-adjacent node to talk to a DN200.
>
3:40 a.m.
Hi.
On 2019-12-09 22:38, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
I have been fixing some issues with the file access
listening (FAL)
under Tops-20.? Briefly, it would crash on listing extremely large
directories and return incorrect byte sizes and counts for files under
certain circumstances.? It also did not support anonymous access as is
currently used in HECnet (blank user name).? There were other issues.
Hum. I don't think that is correctly described. Anonymous access as such
does not exist. In VMS, there is a default account used if user/password
is not provided. Same in RSTS/E I think.
In RSX, that mechanism does not exist. However, in RSX-11M-PLUS, you do
have proxy access. That works by the serving side being able to map a
remote user to some local user. In RSX that can be done with wildcards
as well, so I've essentially setup that any remote user for which I do
not have a more precise proxy entry, they go to a default proxy entry
with maps to a specific local user.
But for that to work, both sides must support proxy access. So blank
usernames is not what is going on, really...
It's been a bit of a slog, the first two issues
taking a considerable
amount of time to solve.? However, they're fixed and I've got some
prototype anonymous code running.? I would say that I am about 1 to 2
months away from an alpha test; the configurable restriction parsing is
nearly done, hooks remain to be into DAP functions and deployment
documentation to be written.
Questions:
1. My own version of FAL appears quite dated; it only has edits to
Tops-20 V6.1 (1985), whereas the last monitor distributions were in
the 7 series.
* Does anybody have any source files later than that for Tops-20?
Not me. I seem to remember having seen sources for lots of stuff for
Tops-10, and I'm trying to remember if I also saw Tops-20 code. Maybe
someone else knows better.
2. What is the last version of DAP (any platform) for
which a
specification exists?
The only specifications I know of are for DAP V5.6, which is dated 1980.
Which really sucks, because clearly newer versions exist. RSX claims to
be talking DAP V7.1 for example. But I haven't seen a spec for it anywhere.
3. The implementing DAP module (DAPLIB) appears even
older, apparently
dating to V6.0, 1981 time-frame (which seems incorrect).? It
supports DAP 5.6, for which I have the specifications.
* It does /not/ support $RENAME (ACCFUNC 3), which I found
remarkable.? Is $RENAME supported on all other platforms?
It's certainly supported under RSX, and without doubt also under VMS.
* I note that ACCFUNC 5 is reserved.? Is this
used now?
* Is ACCFUNC 0 used?? For what?
* Is any ACCFUNC later than 8 defined?? What is the first free one?
No idea about those. I could go and check RSX sources when I have some
time, but not tonight...
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
7:34 p.m.
The only specifications I know of are for DAP V5.6, which is dated 1980. Which really
sucks, because clearly newer versions exist. RSX claims to be talking DAP V7.1 for
example. But I haven't seen a spec for it anywhere.
I just checked the DECnet-Linux implementation and it claims to be talking either DAP V7.1
or DAP V7.2. It also supports the $RENAME operation (tested from a VMS system).
John.
3. The implementing DAP module (DAPLIB) appears
even older, apparently
dating to V6.0, 1981 time-frame (which seems incorrect). It supports DAP 5.6, for
which I have the specifications.
* It does /not/ support $RENAME (ACCFUNC 3), which I found
remarkable. Is $RENAME supported on all other platforms?
11 Dec
11 Dec
12:37 a.m.
That's interesting.
I'll see about putting rename into Tops-20 DAP and lying about it to VMS.
The anonymous code is completed; I'm doing testing and then I have to
write up documentation.
On 12/10/19 1:34 PM, John Forecast wrote:
The only
specifications I know of are for DAP V5.6, which is dated 1980. Which really sucks,
because clearly newer versions exist. RSX claims to be talking DAP V7.1 for example. But I
haven't seen a spec for it anywhere.
> 3. The implementing DAP module (DAPLIB) appears even older, apparently
> dating to V6.0, 1981 time-frame (which seems incorrect). It supports DAP
5.6, for which I have the specifications.
> * It does /not/ support $RENAME (ACCFUNC 3), which I found
> remarkable. Is $RENAME supported on all other platforms?
I just
checked the DECnet-Linux implementation and it claims to be talking either DAP V7.1 or DAP
V7.2. It also supports the $RENAME operation (tested from a VMS system).
John.
10 Dec
10 Dec
9:33 a.m.
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 16:38:30 -0500, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
1. My own version of FAL appears quite dated; it only
has edits to
Tops-20 V6.1 (1985), whereas the last monitor distributions were in
the 7 series.
* Does anybody have any source files later than that for Tops-20?
As far as I know, the latest DAPLIB.MAC is the following, and the same
directory contains a full set of updated DECnet-20 source files, although
you probably already know/have them:
http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/CFS_TSU04_19910205_1of1/02/update/decsrc/da…
3. The implementing DAP module (DAPLIB) appears even
older, apparently
dating to V6.0, 1981 time-frame (which seems incorrect).? It?
supports DAP 5.6, for which I have the specifications.
* It does /not/ support $RENAME (ACCFUNC 3), which I found
remarkable.? Is $RENAME supported on all other platforms?
* I note that ACCFUNC 5 is reserved.? Is this used now?
* Is ACCFUNC 0 used?? For what?
* Is any ACCFUNC later than 8 defined?? What is the first free one?
According to some VMS V7.2 DECnet source files I have access to, the
following are the only defined access functions available. Number 5 was
still defined as reserved:
ASSUME DAP$K_OPEN EQ 1
ASSUME DAP$K_CREATE EQ 2
ASSUME DAP$K_RENAME EQ 3
ASSUME DAP$K_ERASE EQ 4
ASSUME DAP$K_DIR_LIST EQ 6
ASSUME DAP$K_SUBMIT EQ 7
ASSUME DAP$K_EXECUTE EQ 8
From what I can understand, DAP V6.0 introduced some
minor tweaks, e.g.
backup date and time in the DAP date and time message.
Apparently, DAP V7.0
introduced some more acknowledge messages, stream file support, and above
all (at last) the rename function:
;++
; This routine performs the DAP RENAME file function.
;--
FAL$RENAME:: ; Entry point
BBS #DAP$V_GEQ_V70,(R9),10$ ; Exit if partner does not support
BRW FAL$UNS_ACCFUNC ; DAP V7.0
.
.
.
Hope this helps, :)
G.
11 Dec
11 Dec
12:34 a.m.
Yes, that is the version of DAP that I have.? Actually my DAP is a
little later in that a Y2K problem was fixed.? This was a non-DEC
change, so I don't know if it ever made it into sources.
That little snippet of code below is /quite/ interesting. It would
appear that the VMS DAP will not allow a rename unless the partner
claims DAP V7.?? That's counter-intuitive, because what is supposed to
happen is that mutually supported capabilities are derived from the
config message.? Since Tops-20 does not report SY$REN it will not be
reported and a rename will thus (supposedly) never be requested.
So even if I implement it, VMS won't use it unless I decide to lie about
my DAP version.? That's not the worst thing in the world, there were a
number work-arounds in Tops-20 to address certain limitations of the DAP
implementation of the time.? One assumes these would have been fixed.
What is the difference in practice between functions 7 (SUBMIT) and 8
(EXECUTE)?? In both cases, Tops-20 submits the file as a Batch job to
Galaxy, this being the only way to construct the proper user context.
On 12/10/19 3:33 AM, G. wrote:
On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 16:38:30 -0500, Thomas DeBellis
wrote:
1. My own version of FAL appears quite dated;
it only has edits to
Tops-20 V6.1 (1985), whereas the last monitor distributions were in
the 7 series.
* Does anybody have any source files later than that for Tops-20?
As far as
I know, the latest DAPLIB.MAC is the following, and the same
directory contains a full set of updated DECnet-20 source files, although
you probably already know/have them:
http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/CFS_TSU04_19910205_1of1/02/update/decsrc/da…
3. The implementing DAP module (DAPLIB) appears
even older, apparently
dating to V6.0, 1981 time-frame (which seems incorrect).? It
supports DAP 5.6, for which I have the specifications.
* It does /not/ support $RENAME (ACCFUNC 3), which I found
remarkable.? Is $RENAME supported on all other platforms?
* I note that ACCFUNC 5 is reserved.? Is this used now?
* Is ACCFUNC 0 used?? For what?
* Is any ACCFUNC later than 8 defined?? What is the first free one?
According to some VMS V7.2 DECnet source files I have access to, the
following are the only defined access functions available. Number 5 was
still defined as reserved:
ASSUME DAP$K_OPEN EQ 1
ASSUME DAP$K_CREATE EQ 2
ASSUME DAP$K_RENAME EQ 3
ASSUME DAP$K_ERASE EQ 4
ASSUME DAP$K_DIR_LIST EQ 6
ASSUME DAP$K_SUBMIT EQ 7
ASSUME DAP$K_EXECUTE EQ 8
From what I can understand, DAP V6.0 introduced some minor tweaks, e.g.
backup date and time in the DAP date and time message. Apparently, DAP V7.0
introduced some more acknowledge messages, stream file support, and above
all (at last) the rename function:
;++
; This routine performs the DAP RENAME file function.
;--
FAL$RENAME:: ; Entry point
BBS #DAP$V_GEQ_V70,(R9),10$ ; Exit if partner does not support
BRW FAL$UNS_ACCFUNC ; DAP V7.0
.
.
.
Hope this helps, :)
G.
12:39 a.m.
On 2019-12-11 00:34, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
[...]
What is the difference in practice between functions 7
(SUBMIT) and 8
(EXECUTE)?? In both cases, Tops-20 submits the file as a Batch job to
Galaxy, this being the only way to construct the proper user context.
In RSX, SUBMIT would be something placed in a batch queue, but EXECUTE
would be something that was run directly, if I remember right. (I could
be confused.) You do not need a user context in the same sense under RSX
in order to run programs. Such program would be run under the console
terminal.
Not sure about VMS.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
12:45 a.m.
On 2019-12-11 00:39, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2019-12-11 00:34, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
[...]
To quote the online help:
.nft /id
NFT -- Version V9.0
Local NFARs V8 DAP V7.1 Buffer size= 2064. OS=RSX-11M+ FS=FCS-11
DC=Yes
.nft /he
NFT is the Network File Transfer utility. It can perform file
transfers and file operations over the network.
Information is available for the following operations:
APPEND (/AP) .............. File Append commands
COPY ...................... File Transfer commands
DELETE (/DE) .............. File Deletion commands
DEFAULTS (/DF) ............ Set/Examine Defaults commands
DIRECTORY (/AT,/BR,/LI,/FU) Directory list commands
EXECUTE (/EX) ............. File Execution commands
IDENTIFY (/ID) ............ Identify commands
PROTECTION (/PR)........... File Protection commands
RENAME (/RE) .............. File Rename command
SPOOL (/SP) ............... File Spooling commands
SUBMIT (/SB) .............. File Submission commands
And the following subjects:
DATA CHECKING (/DC) ....... Remote file transfer data checking
FILESPECS ................. File Specification syntax
NODE NAMES ................ Node and Access control syntax
MODES (/AS,/AX,/BK,/IM,/RC) File transfer Mode switches
QUOTES .................... Quoting foreign filespecs
SWITCHES .................. NFT switch summary
VERSION NUMBERS ........... Version number processing
.nft help ex
To execute a file, or a several files which are located on a remote
node, the command format is:
NFT>filespec1[,filespec2,...,filespecN]/EX
Valid qualifiers are:
/LO
.nft help sb
To submit a file, or several files to a remote system, the command
format is:
NFT>[outfilespec]=infilespec1[,...,infilespecn]/SB
Valid qualifiers are:
/AS, /AX, /BK, /DC, /IM, /NV, /RC, /LO
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
What is the difference in practice between
functions 7 (SUBMIT) and 8
(EXECUTE)?? In both cases, Tops-20 submits the file as a Batch job to
Galaxy, this being the only way to construct the proper user context.
In RSX, SUBMIT would be something placed in a batch queue, but EXECUTE
would be something that was run directly, if I remember right. (I could
be confused.) You do not need a user context in the same sense under RSX
in order to run programs. Such program would be run under the console
terminal.
4:51 a.m.
That's interesting, I wonder what context it executes under on the
remote system?? Running on the console under Tops-10 used to be able to
get you the ability to run INITIA and sign on as whomever you wanted, no
password.? But that was a 5.00 series monitor; I don't know if they
changed that.? On Tops-20, if you bounce the keys hard enough, you can
wind up the in the mini-exec, which is not a good thing.
Changing your user id is one of the few things that's a cinch on Unix.?
You 'just' do a SETUID to the user in question and now for all intents
and purposes, you are them.
No such luck on Tops-20 or as I recall, Tops-10.? On Tops-10, you have
to run the LOGIN or INITIA program from SYS: so you get the JACCT bit
set and then you can set your PPN.? On Tops-20, you can only execute the
LOGIN% JSYS when you are not logged in.? Once you are logged in, you
can't execute LOGIN% ever again, even if you have WHEEL or OPERATOR
capabilities; this effectively broke my implementation of REIN for FTP.
You've got to start a complete new job context.? So to execute, I guess
you'd have to grab a pseudo-terminal and fire up a job on it, perhaps
via CRJOB%.? But now you're talking about what BATCON does, so what's
the point?
I definitely couldn't whack the user context in FAL, it unfortunately
has run with OPERATOR.? To do it right, I'd need to modify the monitor
to give FAL its own (un-logged in) job slot and then have it do the
LOGIN% based on what is passed to it.
I'd looked at the monitor code a few months ago; looks doable. Actually
it looked easier than putting RENAME in.? I guess I'll look at that some
more after I get the ANONYMOUS FAL up.
On 12/10/19 6:45 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2019-12-11 00:39, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2019-12-11 00:34, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
[...]
To quote the online help:
.nft /id
NFT -- Version V9.0
Local NFARs V8?? DAP V7.1 Buffer size=? 2064. OS=RSX-11M+ FS=FCS-11
DC=Yes
.nft /he
?NFT is the Network File Transfer utility.? It can perform file
?transfers and file operations over the network.
?Information is available for the following operations:
???? APPEND (/AP) .............. File Append commands
???? COPY ...................... File Transfer commands
???? DELETE (/DE) .............. File Deletion commands
???? DEFAULTS (/DF) ............ Set/Examine Defaults commands
???? DIRECTORY (/AT,/BR,/LI,/FU) Directory list commands
???? EXECUTE (/EX) ............. File Execution commands
???? IDENTIFY (/ID) ............ Identify commands
???? PROTECTION (/PR)........... File Protection commands
???? RENAME (/RE) .............. File Rename command
???? SPOOL (/SP) ............... File Spooling commands
???? SUBMIT (/SB) .............. File Submission commands
?And the following subjects:
???? DATA CHECKING (/DC) ....... Remote file transfer data checking
???? FILESPECS ................. File Specification syntax
???? NODE NAMES ................ Node and Access control syntax
???? MODES (/AS,/AX,/BK,/IM,/RC) File transfer Mode switches
???? QUOTES .................... Quoting foreign filespecs
???? SWITCHES .................. NFT switch summary
???? VERSION NUMBERS ........... Version number processing
.nft help ex
? To execute a file, or a several files which are located on a remote
? node, the command format is:
??? NFT>filespec1[,filespec2,...,filespecN]/EX
? Valid qualifiers are:
??????? /LO
.nft help sb
? To submit a file, or several files to a remote system, the command
? format is:
??????? NFT>[outfilespec]=infilespec1[,...,infilespecn]/SB
? Valid qualifiers are:
??????? /AS, /AX, /BK, /DC, /IM, /NV, /RC, /LO
? Johnny
What is the difference in practice between
functions 7 (SUBMIT) and
8 (EXECUTE)?? In both cases, Tops-20 submits the file as a Batch job
to Galaxy, this being the only way to construct the proper user
context.
In RSX, SUBMIT would be something placed in a batch queue, but
EXECUTE would be something that was run directly, if I remember
right. (I could be confused.) You do not need a user context in the
same sense under RSX in order to run programs. Such program would be
run under the console terminal.
8:47 a.m.
There isn't necessarily that much context in RSX. You do have a UIC
always, under which every program is run. And, of course, you always
have to provide a user when talking to RSX DAP. There is no such thing
as anonymous access, as I mentioned before.
So obviously, any program executed, is executed under the UIC provided
in the request.
But in RSX, any program have to have a terminal. So, for things which do
not have an obvious terminal associated, they get to run under the
console terminal.
But that terminal is not logged in, so executed programs this way do
face some limitations. They can't really be interactive, since that
wouldn't make sense. There are some other effects of running a program
under a logged out terminal, but it's definitely something that is
possible in RSX, and can happen for other circumstances as well.
Johnny
On 2019-12-11 04:51, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
That's interesting, I wonder what context it
executes under on the
remote system?? Running on the console under Tops-10 used to be able to
get you the ability to run INITIA and sign on as whomever you wanted, no
password.? But that was a 5.00 series monitor; I don't know if they
changed that.? On Tops-20, if you bounce the keys hard enough, you can
wind up the in the mini-exec, which is not a good thing.
Changing your user id is one of the few things that's a cinch on Unix.
You 'just' do a SETUID to the user in question and now for all intents
and purposes, you are them.
No such luck on Tops-20 or as I recall, Tops-10.? On Tops-10, you have
to run the LOGIN or INITIA program from SYS: so you get the JACCT bit
set and then you can set your PPN.? On Tops-20, you can only execute the
LOGIN% JSYS when you are not logged in.? Once you are logged in, you
can't execute LOGIN% ever again, even if you have WHEEL or OPERATOR
capabilities; this effectively broke my implementation of REIN for FTP.
You've got to start a complete new job context.? So to execute, I guess
you'd have to grab a pseudo-terminal and fire up a job on it, perhaps
via CRJOB%.? But now you're talking about what BATCON does, so what's
the point?
I definitely couldn't whack the user context in FAL, it unfortunately
has run with OPERATOR.? To do it right, I'd need to modify the monitor
to give FAL its own (un-logged in) job slot and then have it do the
LOGIN% based on what is passed to it.
I'd looked at the monitor code a few months ago; looks doable. Actually
it looked easier than putting RENAME in.? I guess I'll look at that some
more after I get the ANONYMOUS FAL up.
On 12/10/19 6:45 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2019-12-11 00:39, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>> On 2019-12-11 00:34, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>> What is the difference in practice between functions 7 (SUBMIT) and
>>> 8 (EXECUTE)?? In both cases, Tops-20 submits the file as a Batch job
>>> to Galaxy, this being the only way to construct the proper user
>>> context.
>>
>> In RSX, SUBMIT would be something placed in a batch queue, but
>> EXECUTE would be something that was run directly, if I remember
>> right. (I could be confused.) You do not need a user context in the
>> same sense under RSX in order to run programs. Such program would be
>> run under the console terminal.
>
> To quote the online help:
>
> .nft /id
> NFT -- Version V9.0
> Local NFARs V8?? DAP V7.1 Buffer size=? 2064. OS=RSX-11M+ FS=FCS-11
> DC=Yes
> .nft /he
>
> ?NFT is the Network File Transfer utility.? It can perform file
> ?transfers and file operations over the network.
>
> ?Information is available for the following operations:
> ???? APPEND (/AP) .............. File Append commands
> ???? COPY ...................... File Transfer commands
> ???? DELETE (/DE) .............. File Deletion commands
> ???? DEFAULTS (/DF) ............ Set/Examine Defaults commands
> ???? DIRECTORY (/AT,/BR,/LI,/FU) Directory list commands
> ???? EXECUTE (/EX) ............. File Execution commands
> ???? IDENTIFY (/ID) ............ Identify commands
> ???? PROTECTION (/PR)........... File Protection commands
> ???? RENAME (/RE) .............. File Rename command
> ???? SPOOL (/SP) ............... File Spooling commands
> ???? SUBMIT (/SB) .............. File Submission commands
> ?And the following subjects:
> ???? DATA CHECKING (/DC) ....... Remote file transfer data checking
> ???? FILESPECS ................. File Specification syntax
> ???? NODE NAMES ................ Node and Access control syntax
> ???? MODES (/AS,/AX,/BK,/IM,/RC) File transfer Mode switches
> ???? QUOTES .................... Quoting foreign filespecs
> ???? SWITCHES .................. NFT switch summary
> ???? VERSION NUMBERS ........... Version number processing
>
> .nft help ex
> ? To execute a file, or a several files which are located on a remote
> ? node, the command format is:
> ??? NFT>filespec1[,filespec2,...,filespecN]/EX
>
> ? Valid qualifiers are:
> ??????? /LO
>
> .nft help sb
> ? To submit a file, or several files to a remote system, the command
> ? format is:
> ??????? NFT>[outfilespec]=infilespec1[,...,infilespecn]/SB
>
> ? Valid qualifiers are:
> ??????? /AS, /AX, /BK, /DC, /IM, /NV, /RC, /LO
>
>
>
> ? Johnny
>
>
>
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
8:17 a.m.
On Tue, 10 Dec 2019 18:34:18 -0500, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
What is the difference in practice between functions 7
(SUBMIT) and 8
(EXECUTE)?
I've looked around a bit, see this:
| 796 .SBTTL FAL$SUBMIT, FAL$CREATE
| 797
| 798 ;++
| 799 ; The following routines have separate entry points but share common code ...
| 800 ;
| 801 ; This routine performs the DAP SUBMIT file function which consists of creating
| 802 ; the command file, submitting it to the symbiont manager for execution, and
| 803 ; finally deleting the command file when the job is finished.
| 804 ;--
| 805
| 806 FAL$SUBMIT:: ; Entry point
| 807 BISL2 #<<FAB$M_SCF>!- ; Set submit-on-close and
| 808 <FAB$M_DLT>!- ; delete-after-execution bits
| 809 0>,FAB$L_FOP(R10) ; Fall thru to FAL$CREATE ...
| 810
| 811 ;++
| 812 ; This routine performs the DAP CREATE file function.
| 813 ;--
| 814
| 815 FAL$CREATE:: ; Entry point
| 816
And this:
| 974 .SBTTL FAL$EXECUTE
| 975
| 976 ;++
| 977 ; This routine performs the DAP EXECUTE file function which consists of
| 978 ; submitting a command file to the symbiont manager for execution. The command
| 979 ; file must exist on the destination node and it is not deleted after execution.
| 980 ;
| 981 ; Note: The DAP specification allows partner to request that DAP Extended
| 982 ; Attributes messages be returned, but it is unlikely that anyone will
| 983 ; make a request for anything but a Name message.
| 984 ;--
| 985
| 986 FAL$EXECUTE:: ; Entry point
Also, from the DAP V5.6 specification:
| 5.2.7 Command/Batch Execution Files - The Data Access Protocol
| includes commands for the transfer and submission of files to a batch
| processing facility or command interpreter. The "submit as command
| file" request in the Access Message requests that the data that
| follows be stored in a temporary file and that this file be submitted
| to a batch-type facility upon access completion (closing of the file).
| The file will be deleted following execution by the batch facility.
| DAP does nothing with regard to any feedback from the batch facility
| and does not guarantee that the file actually executes in the batch
| monitor. The file is transferred using sequential file storage, see
| section 5.2.2.
|
| The "execute-as-command-file" requests that the specified file be only
| submitted to the batch facility. No data follows this command (the
| specified file having been previously established on the accessed
| system). The file is not deleted following execution by the batch
| facility, so that the sequence "store, and execute command file" will
| transfer a file, submit it and retain the file for later use. The
| message sequence for "submit-as-command-file" is identical to
"store",
| while the "execute command file" is identical to ERASE.
I suspect that the VMS SUBMIT/REMOTE command might result in a DAP execute
file function, wherease the PRINT/REMOTE command in a DAP submit:
| 94 ; NT$CLOSE - engages in a DAP dialogue with the remote FAL to close the
| 95 ; specified file and to process selected FOP options and XABs.
| ... ...
| 137 ; Optionally, a file may be deleted, executed, printed, submitted
| 138 ; (executed then deleted), or spooled (printed then deleted) on close
| 139 ; at the remote node. Note that there is a distinction between the DAP
| 140 ; execute and submit functions. Furthermore, the DCL SUBMIT/REMOTE
| 141 ; command really maps into the DAP execute function (i.e., the file is
| 142 ; not deleted after the batch job completes). Also, the file's
protection
| 143 ; and revision information may be optionally altered on close.
Also again:
http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/BB-JR93L-BB_1990/01/10,7/nft/nip.mac.html
| ;Note: DAP refers to this function as "execute", and defines
"submit" to
| ; be a copy operation with execute on close. For the purposes of
| ; user interface on TOPS-10, the terminology is "submit", even
| ; though the code in the I/O library will use "execute".
Hope this helps, :)
G. (Gerardo)
12 Dec
12 Dec
3:18 a.m.
Actually, I take that back what I said; I only looked at the date in the
in the TITLE.? Some nagging thing wouldn't get off my mind, so I got to
wondering whether I had spoken prematurely and went back and looked
through the change logs and then doing a few FILCOM's.? I was wrong.
1. FAL has an edit to handle (deny) null passwords.
2. DAPLIB has three edits,
* one to increase buffers,
* one to fix a byte pointer getting smashed and
* another to check device characteristics.
3. NFT has a number edits which I will not summarize.
So TSU04 /did/ have some changes.? However, they don't fix the crashing
on long directories nor the incorrect reported byte sizes and counts,
nor is the Y2K fix in.? No rename function.
However, they do look worthwhile, so I'll further review them and merge
them in before alpha test (which will undoubtedly be more fun than
writing documentation).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 12/10/19 6:34 PM, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
Yes, that is the version of DAP that I have.? Actually my DAP is a
little later in that a Y2K problem was fixed.? This was a non-DEC
change, so I don't know if it ever made it into sources.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> On 12/10/19 3:33 AM, G. wrote:
> As far as I know, the latest DAPLIB.MAC is the following, and the same
> directory contains a full set of updated DECnet-20 source files, although
> you probably already know/have them:
>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 16:38:30 -0500, Thomas DeBellis wrote:
>> 1. My own version of FAL appears quite dated; it only has edits to
>> Tops-20 V6.1 (1985), whereas the last monitor distributions were in
>> the 7 series.
>> * Does anybody have any source files later than that for Tops-20?
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